Trust the process

[LittleHurt05]

11 minutes ago, Sarava said:

 That is why we need to see Eloy and Kopech up sometime in the next few months. Show the potential free agents that something special is coming here.

That doesnt matter. The top free agent last off-season signed with a team coming off 91 losses that will lose more this year.  It's about money and which team is in the best position to spend it that off season. When these players have one, and one chance only, to sign a massive seven figure deal, they want to get paid.

[Sarava]

6 minutes ago, LittleHurt05 said:

That doesnt matter. The top free agent last off-season signed with a team coming off 91 losses that will lose more this year.  It's about money and which team is in the best position to spend it that off season. When these players have one, and one chance only, to sign a massive seven figure deal, they want to get paid.

Last year was a weird free agent year, and if you're referring to Eric Hosmer, it was widely reported that he didn't have a whole lot of options. 

A Manny Machado will probably have 5+ teams willing to pay him 300+ mil. At that point, he likely will choose the destination that makes him the most comfortable.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Sarava

[Replacement Level Poster]

6 minutes ago, LittleHurt05 said:

The real test is seeing if Hahn can convince Jerry to offer enough money to get free agents to come here.

 

Fixed it for you.

No doubt I’ve seen Hahn in the media using the Robert signing as an example of how the Whitesox are committed to winning and spending money in ways the they have not in the past.

keep in mind the Robert signing was what $50-52 million with tax?

Harper, Machado, Arenado are going to be anywhere from 5 to 7 times that amount with an opt out-clause which will put all the Injury, risk decline on the Sox.

[caulfield12]

26 minutes ago, Sarava said:

 That is why we need to see Eloy and Kopech up sometime in the next few months. Show the potential free agents that something special is coming here.

Did the Cubs or Astros do that with their top prospects ahead of time just to impress Jon Lester?

The fact of the matter is that Jimenez is about as close to a guarantee in terms of being a productive hitter as it gets.  HOWEVER, we all know from watching the Mets in 2015 and watching them again in 2018 that "pitching dynasties" rarely conform to our expectations or can prove 100% resistant to injuries.

In the end, money will win 90-95% of the FA bidding battles.

And Kopech's got to work on his control and secondary pitches...there are too many pitchers (see almost every bullpen now) with guys who can throw 95-100 MPH and get lit up like a Christmas tree even at that velocity.  It's all about his change and secondary stuff, getting ahead in counts and honing his control.  To throw him to the wolves based on the number of minor league innings he has thrown so far in his career would be the definition of insane.   It wouldn't make any fanbase happier...any agent...any potential FA who wouldn't want to see a year of control blown needlessly until both those players are 100% ready to hit the ground running and succeed/build confidence.

Edited May 7, 2018 by caulfield12

[Sarava]

13 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Did the Cubs or Astros do that with their top prospects ahead of time just to impress Jon Lester?

The fact of the matter is that Jimenez is about as close to a guarantee in terms of being a productive hitter as it gets.  HOWEVER, we all know from watching the Mets in 2015 and watching them again in 2018 that "pitching dynasties" rarely conform to our expectations or can prove 100% resistant to injuries.

 In the end, money will win 90-95% of the FA bidding battles.

 And Kopech's got to work on his control and secondary pitches...there are too many pitchers (see almost every bullpen now) with guys who can throw 95-100 MPH and get lit up like a Christmas tree even at that velocity.  It's all about his change and secondary stuff, getting ahead in counts and honing his control.  To throw him to the wolves based on the number of minor league innings he has thrown so far in his career would be the definition of insane.   It wouldn't make any fanbase happier...any agent...any potential FA who wouldn't want to see a year of control blown needlessly until both those players are 100% ready to hit the ground running and succeed/build confidence.

I wasn't in any way suggesting to bring anyone up before they are ready. I figure those guys probably will be ready within a few months.

And yeah, the Sox will have to pay someone to get them to come here. What I'm more getting at is this. Say the Yankees offer Machado 300 mil and the Sox offer him 340 mil. I could easily see him going with the Yankees offer.

The Sox aren't the Cubs. They don't have the national draw. And they also don't have a connection to Machado, that Theo had with Lester. So that's a little bit of apples to oranges.

[kitekrazy]

59 minutes ago, Sarava said:

 That is why we need to see Eloy and Kopech up sometime in the next few months. Show the potential free agents that something special is coming here.

 Every free agent has their price. It's more about winning $$$ than games.

[caulfield12]

28 minutes ago, Sarava said:

I wasn't in any way suggesting to bring anyone up before they are ready. I figure those guys probably will be ready within a few months.

And yeah, the Sox will have to pay someone to get them to come here. What I'm more getting at is this. Say the Yankees offer Machado 300 mil and the Sox offer him 340 mil. I could easily see him going with the Yankees offer.

The Sox aren't the Cubs. They don't have the national draw. And they also don't have a connection to Machado, that Theo had with Lester. So that's a little bit of apples to oranges.

Look at it like the negotiations between the Cards, White Sox and Luis Robert.

There will be pluses and minuses for every situation.  Chicago is one of the best cities to live in...great nightlife, lots of things to do for single players or guys with families.  For a Hispanic player, it might be the best place to play in terms of the coaching staff and feeling 100% comfortable.

Now, in the end, whether that's Machado, Harper or Arenado...who knows, right?  We've been involved in this mating dance for decades, and have almost always finished in second or third place (Belle/Dunn/Abreu/L.Robert/Robertson some of the more notable exceptions).  

With all the talk of opt outs, it might actually be better for the White Sox to end up with two of Pollock/Kimbrel/A.Miller instead of spending 50% more for just one single player.  From an excitement standpoint, I certainly "get it," but I'm not going to be wedded to those three names.  That would be foolish.

 

Edited May 7, 2018 by caulfield12

[LittleHurt05]

32 minutes ago, Sarava said:

I wasn't in any way suggesting to bring anyone up before they are ready. I figure those guys probably will be ready within a few months.

And yeah, the Sox will have to pay someone to get them to come here. What I'm more getting at is this. Say the Yankees offer Machado 300 mil and the Sox offer him 340 mil. I could easily see him going with the Yankees offer.

The Sox aren't the Cubs. They don't have the national draw. And they also don't have a connection to Machado, that Theo had with Lester. So that's a little bit of apples to oranges.

If the Sox offer Machado 40 million dollars more than the Yankees,  he will be on the South Side 99 out of 100 times.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, LittleHurt05 said:

The real test is seeing if Hahn can convince Jerry to offer enough money to get free agents to come here.

 

Fixed it for you.

The true test of the rebuild isto not needto spend the money on a free agent. If people want to follow the Houston model, there isnt a significant free agent there.

[Thad Bosley]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Lol...you can hate or be skeptical of the front office all you want, but people need to stop being surprised this team sucks and trying to use that as further evidence the front office is incompetent.  The team is supposed to suck right now by design and ignoring that just makes some of you guys look like total fools.

“Lol...”  

Lol, indeed.

”you can hate or be skeptical of the front office all you want”  

Oh, and we are, and justifiably so.  Williams and Hahn have been 1-2 and 2-1 at the top of the Sox’ management group since 2001.  Yet just two postseason appearances in 18 years under their leadership?  Just one since the WS appearance 13 years ago (and a very brief one at that!)?  Not one appearance in almost a decade now?  Oh, you better believe skepticism is out and about as it relates to how this fan base views this front office.  All knowledgeable fans are beyond skeptical at this point with the level of incompetence exhibited by this front office.  

“but people need to stop being surprised this team sucks”

That’s the issue - we ARE NOT surprised!  We are use to them sucking!  They’ve sucked for longer than we care to remember.  The key is we WANT them to STOP sucking.  To date, they have not stopped that from happening.  

“and trying to use that as further evidence that the front office is incompetent”

We are all open to evidence to the contrary.  

“The team is supposed to suck right now by design”

As opposed to the recent teams who performed at the same level as this one which were “designed” to be “All In” and/or “Going for it”.  You never can tell the difference  with the teams this management group fields each year. 

“ignoring that just makes some of you look like total fools”

Attendance, TV & radio ratings of recent years suggest the “total fools” are those folks who ignore how the facts of this team’s recent (and long term) results have impacted the current and potential fan base.  

Edited May 7, 2018 by Fan O'Faust

[Replacement Level Poster]

6 minutes ago, ptatc said:

The true test of the rebuild isto not needto spend the money on a free agent. If people want to follow the Houston model, there isnt a significant free agent there.

The Houston model also includes signing a 17 year old out of Venezuela who turns into the icon/ league mvp of your team in altuve. Oh and he reupps with your team twice through his age 34 year probably for less than open market value. 

[ptatc]

Just now, Replacement Level Poster said:

The Houston model also includes signing a 17 year old out of Venezuela who turns into the icon/ league mvp of your team in altuve. Oh and he reupps with your team twice through his age 34 year probably for less than open market value. 

The sox rebuild also includes spending 50 million on Luis Robert. That makes them about even. 

[Replacement Level Poster]

Only if Robert produces to the level of altuve

[LittleHurt05]

49 minutes ago, ptatc said:

The true test of the rebuild isto not needto spend the money on a free agent. If people want to follow the Houston model, there isnt a significant free agent there.

That's a fair point.  And they also completely whiffed on top 3 draft picks and yet are still the defending champs. 

[ptatc]

44 minutes ago, Replacement Level Poster said:

Only if Robert produces to the level of altuve

So its not the money and effort by the frint office and owner but every player must pan out. Houston whiffed on Aiken and other draft picks yet they won. Does that make their rebuild a failure? If jimenez produces like altuve is that a success? 

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, LittleHurt05 said:

That's a fair point.  And they also completely whiffed on top 3 draft picks and yet are still the defending champs. 

But they were better off WITHOUT Aiken, because the following year they ended up with:

1) Bregman

2) Tucker

3) Daz Cameron, bundled for Cy Verlander

 

Appel was the obvious miss, but having Springer, Altuve and Keuchel more than made up for that.

Not to mention they were able to supplement with outside talent such as Gurriel (Cuba), Marwin Gonzalez, Reddick (FA), Gattis, McCann, McHugh, Morton, etc.

Then they leveraged the excess to get Verlander/Cole/Giles.

[ptatc]

14 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

But they were better off WITHOUT Aiken, because the following year they ended up with:

1) Bregman

2) Tucker

3) Daz Cameron, bundled for Cy Verlander

 

Appel was the obvious miss, but having Springer, Altuve and Keuchel more than made up for that.

Not to mention they were able to supplement with outside talent such as Gurriel (Cuba), Marwin Gonzalez, Reddick (FA), Gattis, McCann, McHugh, Morton, etc.

Then they leveraged the excess to get Verlander/Cole/Giles.

Hopefully all of this will also be said of the white sox acquisitions as well. That is the goal of the rebuild. Acquire the talent so they dont need to take a chance on big money FA.

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Hopefully all of this will also be said of the white sox acquisitions as well. That is the goal of the rebuild. Acquire the talent so they dont need to take a chance on big money FA.

When you have absolute zero long-term payroll commitments you better spend some money and sign some impact talent in free agency.  This idea we will build completely from within is not realistic and honestly a poor strategy.  Trotting out sub $70M payrolls for the next half decade would simply be a waste of a young cheap core.

[caulfield12]

14 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Hopefully all of this will also be said of the white sox acquisitions as well. That is the goal of the rebuild. Acquire the talent so they dont need to take a chance on big money FA.

Keuchel was a 7th round draft pick, fwiw.

Charlie Morton was signed for only $14 million, 2 years as a FA from the Phillies (was injured for most of the year).  Basically, about the same we were willing to spend on Derek Holland for one year...

McHugh was claimed off waivers from the Rockies.

McCullers was available all the way down in the compensation round, at the 41st pick.

 

They also had Carlos Gomez and Carlos Beltran in the mix during this timeframe, but no HUGE free agent deals...the biggest was Reddick, and adding Verlander's salary, as well as McCann's.

Edited May 7, 2018 by caulfield12

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Fan O'Faust said:

“Lol...”  

Lol, indeed.

”you can hate or be skeptical of the front office all you want”  

Oh, and we are, and justifiably so.  Williams and Hahn have been 1-2 and 2-1 at the top of the Sox’ management group since 2001.  Yet just two postseason appearances in 18 years under their leadership?  Just one since the WS appearance 13 years ago (and a very brief one at that!)?  Not one appearance in almost a decade now?  Oh, you better believe skepticism is out and about as it relates to how this fan base views this front office.  All knowledgeable fans are beyond skeptical at this point with the level of incompetence exhibited by this front office.  

“but people need to stop being surprised this team sucks”

That’s the issue - we ARE NOT surprised!  We are use to them sucking!  They’ve sucked for longer than we care to remember.  The key is we WANT them to STOP sucking.  To date, they have not stopped that from happening.  

“and trying to use that as further evidence that the front office is incompetent”

We are all open to evidence to the contrary.  

“The team is supposed to suck right now by design”

As opposed to the recent teams who performed at the same level as this one which were “designed” to be “All In” and/or “Going for it”.  You never can tell the difference  with the teams this management group fields each year. 

“ignoring that just makes some of you look like total fools”

Attendance, TV & radio ratings of recent years suggest the “total fools” are those folks who ignore how the facts of this team’s recent (and long term) results have impacted the current and potential fan base.  

I guess I don’t know what you’re even arguing.  I already said you can be skeptical of the architects behind this rebuild.  Obviously their track record hasn’t been good since 2005 and most organizations would have probably cut them loose by this point.  But the decision to rebuild was the right call.  There really wasn’t another alternative unless Reinsdorf was going to up the checkbook significantly and even that would have been super risky.  And regardless of who was leading the rebuild, our team was going to suck this year.  That was always part of the plan.  A small subset of posters here keep acting surprised by this and/or use it as further proof as part of their anti Hahn & KW agenda. So again, hate those two all you like, but don’t use this season to fuel the fire.

[ron883]

I remember during the Cubs rebuild they had meatball fans calling into the radio left and right that just didn't understand the rebuild or refused to acknowledge that it was a good idea. Those people are happily eating crow now. That will happen when the sox dynasty begins. 

[Eminor3rd]

11 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Did the Cubs or Astros do that with their top prospects ahead of time just to impress Jon Lester?

The fact of the matter is that Jimenez is about as close to a guarantee in terms of being a productive hitter as it gets.  HOWEVER, we all know from watching the Mets in 2015 and watching them again in 2018 that "pitching dynasties" rarely conform to our expectations or can prove 100% resistant to injuries.

In the end, money will win 90-95% of the FA bidding battles.

And Kopech's got to work on his control and secondary pitches...there are too many pitchers (see almost every bullpen now) with guys who can throw 95-100 MPH and get lit up like a Christmas tree even at that velocity.  It's all about his change and secondary stuff, getting ahead in counts and honing his control.  To throw him to the wolves based on the number of minor league innings he has thrown so far in his career would be the definition of insane.   It wouldn't make any fanbase happier...any agent...any potential FA who wouldn't want to see a year of control blown needlessly until both those players are 100% ready to hit the ground running and succeed/build confidence.

It really isn't that helpful to cite single examples as if they are evidence of a trend. There are only three examples of completed "modern rebuilds" that we have to reference. There's no way you can look at any of them and say "the Sox have to do x with pitchers, y with position players, z with promotions, etc. because the Cubs/Astros/Royals did." There are too many moving pieces -- just do what's right by the players, for the roster, for the market, etc.

[WBWSF]

7 hours ago, Hot FiRe said:

I remember during the Cubs rebuild they had meatball fans calling into the radio left and right that just didn't understand the rebuild or refused to acknowledge that it was a good idea. Those people are happily eating crow now. That will happen when the sox dynasty begins. 

A friend of mine (who is a Yankees fan) was talking about this White Sox "rebuild" asked me who would I like to see  in charge of this "rebuild". His two choices were the present White Sox ownership/ management team and the present Cubs ownership/management team. I  hated to admit it but I picked the Cubs ownership/management team.  I wonder how many people would have chosen the present White Sox ownership/management team.

[Dick Allen]

7 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

A friend of mine (who is a Yankees fan) was talking about this White Sox "rebuild" asked me who would I like to see  in charge of this "rebuild". His two choices were the present White Sox ownership/ management team and the present Cubs ownership/management team. I  hated to admit it but I picked the Cubs ownership/management team.  I wonder how many people would have chosen the present White Sox ownership/management team.

Of course, but they also got lucky. Arietta was much better than they possibly could have imagined. Hendricks was much better than they could have imagined. The Astros passed on Bryant. Hoyer gave Theo Rizzo for Cashner and a job to be named later. Any one of those doesn't happen, the drought is probably still on, and White Sox fans appetite for a full rebuild is probably not as big as it was.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

32 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

It really isn't that helpful to cite single examples as if they are evidence of a trend. There are only three examples of completed "modern rebuilds" that we have to reference. There's no way you can look at any of them and say "the Sox have to do x with pitchers, y with position players, z with promotions, etc. because the Cubs/Astros/Royals did." There are too many moving pieces -- just do what's right by the players, for the roster, for the market, etc.

 Would we still be rebuilding without those three recent successes to market/sell?