Trust the process

[Balta1701]

53 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Winning a World Series before 2023, and maybe convincing him to stay.

The only way we're going to be able to afford to keep these guys is to pack this ballpark by winning a title before they are closing in on FA.

[Replacement Level Poster]

I understand the process of tanking, the incentives built into the cba, high draft pick, bonus pool for extended number of years, and playing with cheap young cost controlled talent, but as some other posters have stated this front office has not done anything in the past decade to build credibility they can succeed at this plan to the fan base. Who was more cost controlled than Sale & Quintana? I know now it’s different than before because of the injection of so much high end talent through trades in the system. But what else are we going to do as fans as long as Jerry Loyalty owns the team.

I only hope next year they start adding some market talent which can be controlled through 23-24, arrenado, Kimbrel, pollock or similar type. Thus far I’ve been to 4 games this year and they’ve been outscored 31-6 and lost all of them needless to say.  

[greg775]

40 minutes ago, Replacement Level Poster said:

I understand the process of tanking, the incentives built into the cba, high draft pick, bonus pool for extended number of years, and playing with cheap young cost controlled talent, but as some other posters have stated this front office has not done anything in the past decade to build credibility they can succeed at this plan to the fan base. Who was more cost controlled than Sale & Quintana? I know now it’s different than before because of the injection of so much high end talent through trades in the system. But what else are we going to do as fans as long as Jerry Loyalty owns the team.

I only hope next year they start adding some market talent which can be controlled through 23-24, arrenado, Kimbrel, pollock or similar type. Thus far I’ve been to 4 games this year and they’ve been outscored 31-6 and lost all of them needless to say.  

As a regular attendee I thought I'd ask. Do you mind the high prices while watching that crap? Or are you OK with it all?

[Thad Bosley]

2 hours ago, Replacement Level Poster said:

I understand the process of tanking, the incentives built into the cba, high draft pick, bonus pool for extended number of years, and playing with cheap young cost controlled talent, but as some other posters have stated this front office has not done anything in the past decade to build credibility they can succeed at this plan to the fan base. Who was more cost controlled than Sale & Quintana? I know now it’s different than before because of the injection of so much high end talent through trades in the system. But what else are we going to do as fans as long as Jerry Loyalty owns the team.

I only hope next year they start adding some market talent which can be controlled through 23-24, arrenado, Kimbrel, pollock or similar type. Thus far I’ve been to 4 games this year and they’ve been outscored 31-6 and lost all of them needless to say.  

Given this front office is in their 18th year together now with only two playoff appearances to their credit, including just one in the 13 years since the WS year, yes, very little in the credibility column earned for this management team.  But I think we all realize we are just stuck with them while the current ownership is in place, so all the fan base is left with is hope.  Hope that somehow, some way, this plan of their’s will bear fruit and finally reverse the streak of horrific baseball we’ve witnessed now on the South Side for way too many years now.  

[WBWSF]

Hawk made a rather interesting comment today. He said you can judge  the GM of the team by its won - loss record.  Hahn has been the GM here for 6 years and has not had one winning season. The talent on this team is pathetic. Delmonico has been the cleanup man on the team most of the season and he has 1 homerun with 6RBIs.  I can't remember  the White Sox having a hitter batting 4th with only 6 RBIs at this stage of the season.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, greg775 said:

As a regular attendee I thought I'd ask. Do you mind the high prices while watching that crap? Or are you OK with it all?

If you have a problem with the price of the product then stop attending games.  I don’t understand why you find a need to bring this up constantly.  No one is forced to go to games.

[Chicago White Sox]

38 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

Hawk made a rather interesting comment today. He said you can judge  the GM of the team by its won - loss record.  Hahn has been the GM here for 6 years and has not had one winning season. The talent on this team is pathetic. Delmonico has been the cleanup man on the team most of the season and he has 1 homerun with 6RBIs.  I can't remember  the White Sox having a hitter batting 4th with only 6 RBIs at this stage of the season.

Can you remember the last time we went with a full fledge rebuild?  Because that’s exactly what we’re doing right now which is exactly why we have numerous flaws with our roster which is exactly why we should expect a lot of losing this year.  I’m not sure how in god’s name you still don’t grasp this, but maybe you need to take a little break from White Sox baseball because your expectations for this season beyond unrealistic.

[LittleHurt05]

41 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

Given this front office is in their 18th year together now with only two playoff appearances to their credit, including just one in the 13 years since the WS year, yes, very little in the credibility column earned for this management team.  But I think we all realize we are just stuck with them while the current ownership is in place, so all the fan base is left with is hope.  Hope that somehow, some way, this plan of their’s will bear fruit and finally reverse the streak of horrific baseball we’ve witnessed now on the South Side for way too many years now.  

With Hahn as the new face of the front office, it's easy to forget those things, that it's the same crew in charge that would have been fired by nearly any other owner in the league long ago. But they had a few trade assets that couldnt be screwed up and we have hope.

Although a man named Red once told me hope is a dangerous thing...

[Dick Allen]

I think the pressure should be on Hahn and KW. They are going to have to have a somewhat competitive team next year, and 2020; they have to contend. A few are gung ho over the rebuild and almost think it just about guarantees multiple championships, but think about it...will they be better than the Yankees, Astros, Red Sox, Braves, Phillies, Cubs, Padres, Dodgers in 3 years, 4 years, or 5 years? Maybe they will, maybe they won’t. Rebuilds are a marathon, but the Sox with Sale, Q, and Eaton, got about a 20 mile head start. Most teams are lucky to have one star with a team friendly contract to trade. They had 3. If this rebuild doesn’t go reasonably smoothly after this season, JR has to suck it up and make a change.

 

i really thought they would win 74 or 75 games this year since they play so many games vs. brutal teams. They would have to play .500 the rest of the way to win 74.

 

i am at least a little concerned at least a couple guys they will be counting on when they should be good, could get contaminated with this losing. I get finishing third doesn’t get them anything but a worse position in the draft, but they way they are losing, the volume of the losses, this can backfire as well. Guys get resigned to losing, it could be a tough habit to break.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Baron]

5 minutes ago, LittleHurt05 said:

With Hahn as the new face of the front office, it's easy to forget those things, that it's the same crew in charge that would have been fired by nearly any other owner in the league long ago. But they had a few trade assets that couldnt be screwed up and we have hope.

Although a man named Red once told me hope is a dangerous thing...

I mean in reality Rick is also lucky he hasn't been fired for his lack of success thus far too. 

[caulfield12]

17 minutes ago, Tony said:

1. I honestly don’t think there is a single member on this message board that would argue with the Front Office being on very thin ice, especially is 2020 is a disaster. This isn’t news. People (myself included) are excited about what the future may possibly hold given we saw the same veteran core stumble into multiple third place finishes for the last decade, and now this franchise is starting over with a young core. If they fail to spend money or adequately fill the holes around the core, this was all for nothing. Again, this has all been said. Some choose not to listen to it, that’s on them. 

 

2. The whole “contaminated with losing” thing is just something I don’t buy. They are major league players, professionals that understand the sport and what the Sox are trying to do. It’s not a secret, rebuilds are happening at a frantic pace in baseball. And it’s been shown they can work. The Cubs players weren’t “contaminated” neither were the Astros players. Neither were the Royals core when they won. If a player gets in a “Habit” of losing, they weren’t going to make it anyway.

The majority of young players in those situations (Royals/Cubs) were promoted level by level through the minors...stayed together with their same draft class, experienced a winning culture together and learned to rely upon each other for 3-5 years in the minors as teammates.

Moncada, Anderson, Jimenez and Kopech are the main guys who could theoretically be affected (by the overall lower level of talent and cohesiveness at Birmingham and Charlotte while they were moving up.)   Hansen, Collins and Burdi as well.

At any rate, we really won’t see this until 2020-21 when the Winston-Salem group hits the major league level together.

 

Edited May 6, 2018 by caulfield12

[LittleHurt05]

6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The majority of young players in those situations (Royals/Cubs) were promoted level by level through the minors...stayed together with their same draft class, experienced a winning culture together and learned to rely upon each other for 3-5 years in the minors as teammates.

Moncada, Anderson, Jimenez and Kopech are the main guys who could theoretically be affected (by the overall lower level of talent and cohesiveness at Birmingham and Charlotte.)   Hansen, Collins and Burdi as well.

At any rate, we really won’t see this until 2020-21 when the Winston-Salem group hits the major league level together.

 

The Cubs weren't all promoted together.  Almost the entire pitching staff was from outside the organization, as were a third of their starting position players.  Bryant spent one season in the minors and has never missed the playoffs in the majors. Same with Schwarber. Rizzo was with two other franchises.  

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, LittleHurt05 said:

The Cubs weren't all promoted together.  Almost the entire pitching staff was from outside the organization, as were a third of their starting position players.  Bryant spent one season in the minors and has never missed the playoffs in the majors. Same with Schwarber. Rizzo was with two other franchises.  

Forget it he’s rolling

[Thad Bosley]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Can you remember the last time we went with a full fledge rebuild?  Because that’s exactly what we’re doing right now which is exactly why we have numerous flaws with our roster which is exactly why we should expect a lot of losing this year.  I’m not sure how in god’s name you still don’t grasp this, but maybe you need to take a little break from White Sox baseball because your expectations for this season beyond unrealistic.

What you don’t grasp is that “we”, the fans, aren’t the ones going on this “full fledge rebuild”.  This so-called “rebuild” is solely on ownership and management, reflecting their abject failure to produce anything remotely resembling competitive baseball in a very long time.  This expectation that fans should somehow accept and be patient with a front office that has been so poor at their job that they’ve effectively had to start from scratch with a rebuild is utter nonsense.  

As long as we’re still subject to and witnessing not only the lack of winning baseball but the awful variety of the past decade, our voices of discontent should be loud and clear until they get it right and put forth a product on the field worthy of our support.  

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

What you don’t grasp is that “we”, the fans, aren’t the ones going on this “full fledge rebuild”.  This so-called “rebuild” is solely on ownership and management, reflecting their abject failure to produce anything remotely resembling competitive baseball in a very long time.  This expectation that fans should somehow accept and be patient with a front office that has been so poor at their job that they’ve effectively had to start from scratch with a rebuild is utter nonsense.  

As long as we’re still subject to and witnessing not only the lack of winning baseball but the awful variety of the past decade, our voices of discontent should be loud and clear until they get it right and put forth a product on the field worthy of our support.  

Lol...you can hate or be skeptical of the front office all you want, but people need to stop being surprised this team sucks and trying to use that as further evidence the front office is incompetent.  The team is supposed to suck right now by design and ignoring that just makes some of you guys look like total fools.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Chicago White Sox

[caulfield12]

18 minutes ago, LittleHurt05 said:

The Cubs weren't all promoted together.  Almost the entire pitching staff was from outside the organization, as were a third of their starting position players.  Bryant spent one season in the minors and has never missed the playoffs in the majors. Same with Schwarber. Rizzo was with two other franchises.  

Fine, the Royals and Astros are better examples...

[Dominikk85]

On 5/5/2018 at 6:16 AM, Lip Man 1 said:

I don't think the Sox front office is feeling their "window" will be all of four years. I'd certainly hope not...not the way Hahn was talking about sustained contending. If the Sox truly want to try to win for a sustained time period they are going to have to pay the price financially to the players and much will also depend on who the owner is in that time period.

Actually a 4-5 year window is pretty long, 6 years is great unless you can spend 200+m.

 

However I disagree that the window will be closed after 2023. Moncada is a free agent in 24 but kopech, robert, eloy, Hanson, cease, Rutherford, burger, Collins and whoever makes it are all not even starting their clock. Most of the rebuild pieces are still in the minors. I think the window will be more like 2021 to 2026 or so.

[Replacement Level Poster]

3 hours ago, greg775 said:

As a regular attendee I thought I'd ask. Do you mind the high prices while watching that crap? Or are you OK with it all?

I only have a 20 game partial season plan but I have had for several years now. They chopped down the games from 27 to 20. I’ll probably always use some of my discretionary income on the Sox. Bottom line is I love the White Sox and I love baseball as a fan. I enjoy and appreciate watching Carlos Correa,Verlander, the fantastic batting eye of Joey Votto, Trout,Moncada play etc. The eyes on view shows how great these players are and in my opinion you can’t appreciate in a stat line. The one way I can see me losing interest or not being okay with spending money as a consumer only is if worst case scenario the bust rate of the prospects succeeds the success rate of the prospects in near term and the rebuild doesn’t take hold.

i understand the logic behind the rebuild, but I am also aware of the risks of failure. Everybody is pointing to Houston and Cubs as the way this is done and the only model of success. But guess what the Giants recently won 3 titles in five years without attempting anything near this type of deconstruction. True they hit on posey, lincecum, Cain and Bumgarner, but rebuilding teams are by default going to have to hit on 1st rounders. Unfortunately all tanking does is get you a higher pick without guarantees. I think a healthy dose of skepticism in jerry,Hahn, kw brain trust is warranted based on recent years. This is actually their second rebuild. The pirates and royals have gone through decades recently 90s to 2010s of drafting in the top 10. They were not considered smart franchises by terming there losing as tanking and rebuilding. They were just considered horse.... franchises. By 2020 will be on a dozen years of this. 

[zisk]

          I'm not defending Hahn, but it seems different now. Maybe behind the scenes KW is out of the way and Hahn and Hostetler

   are actually making the tough calls. One thing I think most would agree with is the players acquired for Sale, Eaton and Q look

   very good. That was the first part of the rebuild. If the next 2 drafts go well, then the second part will also be successful.  the final

   stage will be using these stock piled players in trade to yield a talented balanced team. If this is achieved, Hahns future job will be

   to trade veterans to acquire our future stars and keep the ball rolling. Branch Rickey was the master of this and he was able to stay

  competitive for decades even with the Yankees getting the lions share of amateur talent before the draft. 

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, zisk said:

          I'm not defending Hahn, but it seems different now. Maybe behind the scenes KW is out of the way and Hahn and Hostetler

   are actually making the tough calls. One thing I think most would agree with is the players acquired for Sale, Eaton and Q look

   very good. That was the first part of the rebuild. If the next 2 drafts go well, then the second part will also be successful.  the final

   stage will be using these stock piled players in trade to yield a talented balanced team. If this is achieved, Hahns future job will be

   to trade veterans to acquire our future stars and keep the ball rolling. Branch Rickey was the master of this and he was able to stay

  competitive for decades even with the Yankees getting the lions share of amateur talent before the draft. 

Great post, but what in the world is going on with the spacing?!

[Baron]

The real test is seeing if Hahn can convince free agents to come here. 

[greg775]

54 minutes ago, Replacement Level Poster said:

I only have a 20 game partial season plan but I have had for several years now. They chopped down the games from 27 to 20. I’ll probably always use some of my discretionary income on the Sox. Bottom line is I love the White Sox and I love baseball as a fan. I enjoy and appreciate watching Carlos Correa,Verlander, the fantastic batting eye of Joey Votto, Trout,Moncada play etc. The eyes on view shows how great these players are and in my opinion you can’t appreciate in a stat line. The one way I can see me losing interest or not being okay with spending money as a consumer only is if worst case scenario the bust rate of the prospects succeeds the success rate of the prospects in near term and the rebuild doesn’t take hold.

i understand the logic behind the rebuild, but I am also aware of the risks of failure. Everybody is pointing to Houston and Cubs as the way this is done and the only model of success. But guess what the Giants recently won 3 titles in five years without attempting anything near this type of deconstruction. True they hit on posey, lincecum, Cain and Bumgarner, but rebuilding teams are by default going to have to hit on 1st rounders. Unfortunately all tanking does is get you a higher pick without guarantees. I think a healthy dose of skepticism in jerry,Hahn, kw brain trust is warranted based on recent years. This is actually their second rebuild. The pirates and royals have gone through decades recently 90s to 2010s of drafting in the top 10. They were not considered smart franchises by terming there losing as tanking and rebuilding. They were just considered horse.... franchises. By 2020 will be on a dozen years of this. 

Great post. Great post. I applaud the Sox for 2005. I give them credit for that. But this current crap is beyond belief. It's insulting to try to lose. It's obvious Hahn "wink win commissioner" built this team to lose. Any of us could do that. Any of us could get our underlings to draft the best available player. I'll give them credit over the average fan in getting Moncada and Eloy. Nice job there. And Kopech. Good job. I'm not convinced any of the other guys will lead us to greatness. I hope so. We shall see. All I know is the current product is crap. People ask me about the years before the rebuild and if I was OK with that. No I wasn't. And I also blame the front office for that. They are the ones who acquired hacks like Dunn and too many guys to mention who were stiffs.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Fan O'Faust said:

What you don’t grasp is that “we”, the fans, aren’t the ones going on this “full fledge rebuild”.  This so-called “rebuild” is solely on ownership and management, reflecting their abject failure to produce anything remotely resembling competitive baseball in a very long time.  This expectation that fans should somehow accept and be patient with a front office that has been so poor at their job that they’ve effectively had to start from scratch with a rebuild is utter nonsense.  

As long as we’re still subject to and witnessing not only the lack of winning baseball but the awful variety of the past decade, our voices of discontent should be loud and clear until they get it right and put forth a product on the field worthy of our support.  

I mean feel free to keep yelling at clouds, but the organization has already told you this takes time, so why get all in a rage about what you were told ahead of time?  Hell even Hawks has been saying 2020.  

You are also ignoring the reality that the fans b****ing for years is what caused this rebuild in the first place, so be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it.

[Sarava]

19 minutes ago, Baron said:

The real test is seeing if Hahn can convince free agents to come here. 

 That is why we need to see Eloy and Kopech up sometime in the next few months. Show the potential free agents that something special is coming here.

[LittleHurt05]

29 minutes ago, Baron said:

The real test is seeing if Hahn can convince free agents to come here. 

The real test is seeing if Hahn can convince Jerry to offer enough money to get free agents to come here.

 

Fixed it for you.