Trust the process

[ptatc]

11 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

When you have absolute zero long-term payroll commitments you better spend some money and sign some impact talent in free agency.  This idea we will build completely from within is not realistic and honestly a poor strategy.  Trotting out sub $70M payrolls for the next half decade would simply be a waste of a young cheap core.

This is true, if it's needed. Hopefully if all goes well they won't need to spend it on a FA. I would prefer to go the Houston  route and trade for the contract in the middle when you know they are still performing well like verlander and McCann. 

[oldsox]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

Of course, but they also got lucky. Arietta was much better than they possibly could have imagined. Hendricks was much better than they could have imagined. The Astros passed on Bryant. Hoyer gave Theo Rizzo for Cashner and a job to be named later. Any one of those doesn't happen, the drought is probably still on, and White Sox fans appetite for a full rebuild is probably not as big as it was.

"A job to be named later."  I laughed out loud, but then I looked up Jed Hoyer.  You might have been kidding, but I don't think so.  Hoyer worked for Theo in Boston, too.  Then he got the San Diego gig and let Theo undress him, then he goes to Chicago and is Theo's GM.  Beyond incestuous.  You were kidding on the square.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, WBWSF said:

A friend of mine (who is a Yankees fan) was talking about this White Sox "rebuild" asked me who would I like to see  in charge of this "rebuild". His two choices were the present White Sox ownership/ management team and the present Cubs ownership/management team. I  hated to admit it but I picked the Cubs ownership/management team.  I wonder how many people would have chosen the present White Sox ownership/management team.

I would somewhat disagree. I'm not sure the cubs group could do it without spending huge contracts on pitchers. The Sox group has used assets to acquire all inexpensive players in a number great enough to allow a few to fail and still have enough. Now they will be judged on the results of this group.

[Dick Allen]

21 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I would somewhat disagree. I'm not sure the cubs group could do it without spending huge contracts on pitchers. The Sox group has used assets to acquire all inexpensive players in a number great enough to allow a few to fail and still have enough. Now they will be judged on the results of this group.

If Theo had the assets the Sox had to trade, I think most would rather he be the one making the decisions. But most would rather have Theo make the decisions than any other GM. And it isn't like Theo has made some huge mistakes, just not as many as most, and he's run teams that can afford multiple missteps.  Let's face it, while many of the Sox moves made perfect sense before the rebuild, most of them were train wrecks. When the Sox youngsters are ready, the same guys who made these mistakes will be supplementing the team. If someone had no confidence in them before, I don't see how they would now. It will be interesting to watch. Frankly, anyone could trade Sale and Eaton and Q and get some nice minor league talent back. I do give them credit for being patient with Q, it seems to have netted them a far better return. They did spend money on Robert, which I loved, but now you have to wonder. While he seems to have all the talent in the world, it remains to be seen if he will be able to stay on the field, and how much this period of very little baseball affects him.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If Theo had the assets the Sox had to trade, I think most would rather he be the one making the decisions. But most would rather have Theo make the decisions than any other GM. And it isn't like Theo has made some huge mistakes, just not as many as most, and he's run teams that can afford multiple missteps.  Let's face it, while many of the Sox moves made perfect sense before the rebuild, most of them were train wrecks. When the Sox youngsters are ready, the same guys who made these mistakes will be supplementing the team. If someone had no confidence in them before, I don't see how they would now. It will be interesting to watch. Frankly, anyone could trade Sale and Eaton and Q and get some nice minor league talent back. I do give them credit for being patient with Q, it seems to have netted them a far better return. They did spend money on Robert, which I loved, but now you have to wonder. While he seems to have all the talent in the world, it remains to be seen if he will be able to stay on the field, and how much this period of very little baseball affects him.

FWIW, I totally disagree with the statement that the White Sox's moves made perfect sense before the rebuild because I was sitting here bravely at my keyboard saying that those moves were terrible moves, especially 2015 and 2016.

[ptatc]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If Theo had the assets the Sox had to trade, I think most would rather he be the one making the decisions. But most would rather have Theo make the decisions than any other GM. And it isn't like Theo has made some huge mistakes, just not as many as most, and he's run teams that can afford multiple missteps.  Let's face it, while many of the Sox moves made perfect sense before the rebuild, most of them were train wrecks. When the Sox youngsters are ready, the same guys who made these mistakes will be supplementing the team. If someone had no confidence in them before, I don't see how they would now. It will be interesting to watch. Frankly, anyone could trade Sale and Eaton and Q and get some nice minor league talent back. I do give them credit for being patient with Q, it seems to have netted them a far better return. They did spend money on Robert, which I loved, but now you have to wonder. While he seems to have all the talent in the world, it remains to be seen if he will be able to stay on the field, and how much this period of very little baseball affects him.

Those assets the sox had to trade were acquired and signed to deals by the same front office. This group has never had the opportunity to do a complete rebuild. Theo has never done a rebuild without having one of the highest payrolls in baseball. The white sox will never have the resources that the red sox or the cubs had to work with. Both are unknown but I would be willing to give the sox group the benefit of the doubt because of the talent they have recntly acquired. They have about 3 years to prove they can produce a consistent winner.

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Of course, but they also got lucky. Arietta was much better than they possibly could have imagined. Hendricks was much better than they could have imagined. The Astros passed on Bryant. Hoyer gave Theo Rizzo for Cashner and a job to be named later. Any one of those doesn't happen, the drought is probably still on, and White Sox fans appetite for a full rebuild is probably not as big as it was.

One of the tricks of a rebuild is that if done correctly, it puts you in position to "Get lucky". Yes, the Astros passed on Bryant and they picked up Arietta and Hendricks, but they were able to take advantage of those guys because they were in a position to offer playing time when other teams weren't. When you use that asset correctly, you are likely to find a couple solid players out of it. When you are drafting highly, it's likely you'll get lucky on something. If we win our title, people will be saying that we were lucky the Red Sox had Pedroia and that the Nationals soured on Giolito rather than giving him playing time to develop. 

If our staff is doing their job, if their scouts are doing their job, then we will look equally lucky once these guys pan out. If our staffs are not doing their job, then we will be wondering how so many talented guys flopped.

[greg775]

13 hours ago, Fan O'Faust said:

“Lol...”  

Lol, indeed.

”you can hate or be skeptical of the front office all you want”  

Oh, and we are, and justifiably so.  Williams and Hahn have been 1-2 and 2-1 at the top of the Sox’ management group since 2001.  Yet just two postseason appearances in 18 years under their leadership?  Just one since the WS appearance 13 years ago (and a very brief one at that!)?  Not one appearance in almost a decade now?  Oh, you better believe skepticism is out and about as it relates to how this fan base views this front office.  All knowledgeable fans are beyond skeptical at this point with the level of incompetence exhibited by this front office.  

“but people need to stop being surprised this team sucks”

That’s the issue - we ARE NOT surprised!  We are use to them sucking!  They’ve sucked for longer than we care to remember.  The key is we WANT them to STOP sucking.  To date, they have not stopped that from happening.  

“and trying to use that as further evidence that the front office is incompetent”

We are all open to evidence to the contrary.  

“The team is supposed to suck right now by design”

As opposed to the recent teams who performed at the same level as this one which were “designed” to be “All In” and/or “Going for it”.  You never can tell the difference  with the teams this management group fields each year. 

“ignoring that just makes some of you look like total fools”

Attendance, TV & radio ratings of recent years suggest the “total fools” are those folks who ignore how the facts of this team’s recent (and long term) results have impacted the current and potential fan base.  

I like this Fan O'Faust. He can be my spokesman anytime.

[Dick Allen]

21 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Those assets the sox had to trade were acquired and signed to deals by the same front office. This group has never had the opportunity to do a complete rebuild. Theo has never done a rebuild without having one of the highest payrolls in baseball. The white sox will never have the resources that the red sox or the cubs had to work with. Both are unknown but I would be willing to give the sox group the benefit of the doubt because of the talent they have recntly acquired. They have about 3 years to prove they can produce a consistent winner.

i get that, but if you did a house renovation and weren't happy with the work someone did on an addition to your house, if down the road you were in the market to build a new house, you probably wouldn't consider those people.

 

At some point, the rebuild is going to be back to signing or trading for the correct veterans, something these guys have really struggled with recently.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Dick Allen

[GreenSox]

12 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

But the decision to rebuild was the right call.  There really wasn’t another alternative unless Reinsdorf was going to up the checkbook significantly and even that would have been super risky. 

Rebuilding was probably the right call.  Of course it was caused by the futility of the same front office charged with the rebuild.
It  would have been helpful to have fresh eyes come in and make that determination.  And within the little bit of "build up" that has occurred since the tear down, a lot of this front office's bad habits are still apparent.

Edited May 7, 2018 by GreenSox

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

i get that, but if you did a house renovation and weren't happy with the work someone did on an addition to your house, if down the road you were in the market to build a new house, you probably wouldn't consider those people.

 

At some point, the rebuild is going to be back to signing or trading for the correct veterans, something these guys have really struggled with recently.

No doubt. Howver i think acquiring talent in  desperation for one last try vs. continuation of success will be a different situation. If they are sucessful in this rebuild, I will give them the chance to continue it. If the rebuild isnt a success then neither of us neec to worry about it.

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, GreenSox said:

Rebuilding was probably the right call.  Of course it was caused by the futility of the same front office charged with the rebuild.
It  would have been helpful to have fresh eyes come in and make that determination.  And within the little bit of "build up" that has occurred since the tear down, a lot of this front office's bad habits are still apparent.

That is true.Except for maybe a couple of small market teams, most of the teams in a full rebuild don't have the same regime in place that caused them to have to go there. I would call the White Sox a mid market team in reality. 

[GreenSox]

13 hours ago, Fan O'Faust said:

”you can hate or be skeptical of the front office all you want”  

Oh, and we are, and justifiably so.  Williams and Hahn have been 1-2 and 2-1 at the top of the Sox’ management group since 2001.  Yet just two postseason appearances in 18 years under their leadership?  Just one since the WS appearance 13 years ago (and a very brief one at that!)?  Not one appearance in almost a decade now?  Oh, you better believe skepticism is out and about as it relates to how this fan base views this front office.  All knowledgeable fans are beyond skeptical at this point with the level of incompetence exhibited by this front office.  

I certainly agree with your sentiments and have expressed such many times.  Unfortunately, at this point it is "howling at the moon" as this FO (and others) are in charge and there they shall stay.   It's a sentimental and insular organization and it's seen in some personnel decisions where "good in the clubhouse" , for example, is over-prioritized.

[Eminor3rd]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

 Would we still be rebuilding without those three recent successes to market/sell?   

That's an entirely different question.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Rabbit said:

Holland made 6 million not 14 million. 

McCullers was 1.2 million overslot and had a predraft deal.

$14/2=$7...$7-$6=$1

Morton became an incredibly valuable asset.  Holland became driftwood.

As far as McCullers goes, the Padres could have done the same...his father pitched for them, after all.  They threw a barrage of money at Latin America instead.  Neither team did anything illegal under baseball’s rules...but exploiting loopholes.

Edited May 7, 2018 by caulfield12

[chitownsportsfan]

The biggest question imo remains can the Sox develop and ID non premium talent?  They aren't going to be getting anymore Moncadas or Eloys or Kopechs, where the other club did the majority of the legwork.

The Sox need a lot more Yolmers.  Just guys that are solid starters, won't blow you away, but aren't going to kill you either.  

Post 2005 the Sox time and time again tried a "stars and scrubs" approach but could never even get their scrubs up to replacement level or 1-2 WAR level, especially in the premium defensive positions.

Yes there will be money to plug holes but I'd much rather see the money spent on one or two huge acquisitions, and then a solid drafting and development base allows them to plug holes internally rather than buying mediocre at best (Melky types) starters on the FA market.

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

The biggest question imo remains can the Sox develop and ID non premium talent?  They aren't going to be getting anymore Moncadas or Eloys or Kopechs, where the other club did the majority of the legwork.

The Sox need a lot more Yolmers.  Just guys that are solid starters, won't blow you away, but aren't going to kill you either.  

Post 2005 the Sox time and time again tried a "stars and scrubs" approach but could never even get their scrubs up to replacement level or 1-2 WAR level, especially in the premium defensive positions.

Yes there will be money to plug holes but I'd much rather see the money spent on one or two huge acquisitions, and then a solid drafting and development base allows them to plug holes internally rather than buying mediocre at best (Melky types) starters on the FA market.

Hahn himself was quoted as saying the Sox top six or seven guys could play with anyone. The issue was guys eight through 30.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Hahn himself was quoted as saying the Sox top six or seven guys could play with anyone. The issue was guys eight through 30.

 

3 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

The biggest question imo remains can the Sox develop and ID non premium talent?  They aren't going to be getting anymore Moncadas or Eloys or Kopechs, where the other club did the majority of the legwork.

The Sox need a lot more Yolmers.  Just guys that are solid starters, won't blow you away, but aren't going to kill you either.  

Post 2005 the Sox time and time again tried a "stars and scrubs" approach but could never even get their scrubs up to replacement level or 1-2 WAR level, especially in the premium defensive positions.

Yes there will be money to plug holes but I'd much rather see the money spent on one or two huge acquisitions, and then a solid drafting and development base allows them to plug holes internally rather than buying mediocre at best (Melky types) starters on the FA market.

And yet Rick Hahn's explicit strategy was to trade guys 8-30 to get bigger names for guys 1-7, for several years in a row.

[ptatc]

23 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

 

And yet Rick Hahn's explicit strategy was to trade guys 8-30 to get bigger names for guys 1-7, for several years in a row.

That doesnt mean it wont change once the current prospects make the  MLB. There can be different strategies for different situations.

Edited May 7, 2018 by ptatc

[steveno89]

22 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

 

And yet Rick Hahn's explicit strategy was to trade guys 8-30 to get bigger names for guys 1-7, for several years in a row.

Was reading an article recently about "Should the Rockies made a trade for Jose Abreu" and got to thinking what an acceptable deal for each side could look like. 

Rodgers is very likely to be off limits, but I could see a deal being worked around Colton Welker + Peter Lambert for Abreu making sense. Again, no clue if either side would be interested, but it seems fair from a value standpoint. 

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, Tony said:

 

I didn't think I could love Don Cooper anymore, but then he went and did this?

[greg775]

32 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I didn't think I could love Don Cooper anymore, but then he went and did this?

Me too. I LOVE Cooper's "mean" comments all the time. I do love the guy. He doesn't suffer fools. He'd hate a guy like Greg. Kudos to Coop.

That said ... the reason some fans (and I'm glad to see a lot of board newcomers join me in hating on Hahn and Kenny) doesn't embrace the rebuild or trust the process is it didn't have to be this painful. OK, some of you want THE Nos. 1 or 2 pick which we appear destined for the next 2 years. Some of us don't think there's that big a difference between 2 and 8 or 10. Granted, the idea of No. 1 or 2 now does intrigue me, since our team blows so much. However some of us contend the baseball draft is much different than NFL or NBA. Way more busts. Finally to conclude this point, some of us would prefer the Sox did not save all this cash last offseason. Had they acquired Moustakas, which was easily attainable; had they acquired GOOD relievers not ones named Soria; had they acquired one good veteran starter not named Shields. All it was gonna cost is a few bucks and it wouldn't be THIS painful. We might even sniff .500 which means sniffing the playoffs. All it meant was to spend like a big-city team should spend. So do I trust the process? No. If you held a gun to my head, I would say Eloy, Moncada, Timmy and Kopech are can't miss prospects. I have a good feeling about Cease. But do I think Robert, Rutherford, Burger, Collins, et. all are locks to be good to great, no. If they are great, I will celebrate. But I have the right to be a demanding fan. Kudos to 2005! Bah humbug to the crap we've endured the last few seasons, including this one.

[greg775]

1 hour ago, steveno89 said:

Was reading an article recently about "Should the Rockies made a trade for Jose Abreu" and got to thinking what an acceptable deal for each side could look like. 

Rodgers is very likely to be off limits, but I could see a deal being worked around Colton Welker + Peter Lambert for Abreu making sense. Again, no clue if either side would be interested, but it seems fair from a value standpoint. 

If we trade Abreu, I will either a.) abandon my Sox fandom or b.) simply cry and get that over with.

[caulfield12]

What about if we trade Abreu for something valuable, THEN get him back for the 2020 season?

How's that?

[southsider2k5]

17 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

What about if we trade Abreu for something valuable, THEN get him back for the 2020 season?

How's that?

Judging by what guys like Abreu are going for on the trade and free agent markets, impossible.