Trust the process

[Dick Allen]

5 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

If the attached is correct, the White Sox  had the 2nd largest % increase in ticket prices in 2018. But they also are in the bottom 3rd for overall ticket pricing.   They probably should be running ticket promotions to attract fans understanding the product may be more AAA  than MLB quality. 

 

https://www.vividseats.com/blog/2018-mlb-ticket-prices

They are running promotions. This week it's 2 beers and a bleacher seat for $22. 

[greg775]

49 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Answer me this.

Who was the last team to succeed in a rebuild by this method?

I have no idea.

So you are saying it's worth being THIS bad to make sure we get the No. 1, 2 or 3 overall pick? My point was we don't have to be a 42-win team while in a total rebuild. Reason Sox are this bad during a rebuild is to line Jerry's pockets and the other partner's pockets with more cash.

[Dam8610]

This all does seem like a bit of overreaction to a bad 10-15 game stretch, which are going to happen with a team full of projects, developmental guys, and has-beens, which is what this team is right now. What I want to see is continued signs or new signs of improvement from Moncada, Anderson, Sanchez, Delmonico, Davidson, Thompson, the Garcias, Giolito, Lopez, and Fulmer and a team that never quits and always puts in high effort. As long as we're getting the latter, I can't really complain unless we aren't seeing any of the former. Development isn't linear and struggles should be expected.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, greg775 said:

I have no idea.

So you are saying it's worth being THIS bad to make sure we get the No. 1, 2 or 3 overall pick? My point was we don't have to be a 42-win team while in a total rebuild. Reason Sox are this bad during a rebuild is to line Jerry's pockets and the other partner's pockets with more cash.

More important than the draft slot is that these guys need playing time to get through their struggles, and for 1-2 of the non-big-name guys to turn into solid big leaguers. Playing time on an noncompetitive team, turning that into experience without having a high cost when they make mistakes, is the other asset the white sox are currently using.

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, greg775 said:

I have no idea.

So you are saying it's worth being THIS bad to make sure we get the No. 1, 2 or 3 overall pick? My point was we don't have to be a 42-win team while in a total rebuild. Reason Sox are this bad during a rebuild is to line Jerry's pockets and the other partner's pockets with more cash.

The reason is to let the kids learn on the job so that they are ready to play once the time has come. 

If it were truly what you think, Jose Abreu and Avi Garcia wouldn't be here.  Neither would Miguel Gonzalez, Wellington Castillo, or Joakim Soria.  That is $40 million right there that if what you thought was true, wouldn't be here.  Turning this around, why would the Sox be spending money on these guys if the object was truly profit?

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

This all does seem like a bit of overreaction to a bad 10-15 game stretch, which are going to happen with a team full of projects, developmental guys, and has-beens, which is what this team is right now. What I want to see is continued signs or new signs of improvement from Moncada, Anderson, Sanchez, Delmonico, Davidson, Thompson, the Garcias, Giolito, Lopez, and Fulmer and a team that never quits and always puts in high effort. As long as we're getting the latter, I can't really complain unless we aren't seeing any of the former. Development isn't linear and struggles should be expected.

Sadly when the team gets on a hot streak, I am sure people will start talking about the playoffs again.

[Dam8610]

3 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I have no idea.

So you are saying it's worth being THIS bad to make sure we get the No. 1, 2 or 3 overall pick? My point was we don't have to be a 42-win team while in a total rebuild. Reason Sox are this bad during a rebuild is to line Jerry's pockets and the other partner's pockets with more cash.

I'll give you a hint. Look at the last three World Series winners. The rebuild isn't to "line Jerry's pockets", it's to get the players the team needs to compete. The high draft picks will hopefully, along with the pieces the team acquired in trade, form the core of the next championship caliber White Sox team.

[greg775]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

The reason is to let the kids learn on the job so that they are ready to play once the time has come. 

If it were truly what you think, Jose Abreu and Avi Garcia wouldn't be here.  Neither would Miguel Gonzalez, Wellington Castillo, or Joakim Soria.  That is $40 million right there that if what you thought was true, wouldn't be here.  Turning this around, why would the Sox be spending money on these guys if the object was truly profit?

Abreu and Avi would be here because they (sort of) are part of the rebuilt WS team. It seems like no decision has been made on that yet. Miguel was a head scratcher. I am thinking front office thought they needed somebody to eat up some innings besides the bullpen hacks. Miguel sort of fit that description. Between he and Shields, one of the two (on paper) would be an inning eater during this gawd-awful season. Soria?  Another head scratcher. Not sure why they thought they needed one "established" reliever to go with Nate. Really doesn't make much sense. Maybe they felt a payroll at 40 million might cause riots or something. 60 million is amazingly cheap but it's not 40 million.

[southsider2k5]

11 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Abreu and Avi would be here because they (sort of) are part of the rebuilt WS team. It seems like no decision has been made on that yet. Miguel was a head scratcher. I am thinking front office thought they needed somebody to eat up some innings besides the bullpen hacks. Miguel sort of fit that description. Between he and Shields, one of the two (on paper) would be an inning eater during this gawd-awful season. Soria?  Another head scratcher. Not sure why they thought they needed one "established" reliever to go with Nate. Really doesn't make much sense. Maybe they felt a payroll at 40 million might cause riots or something. 60 million is amazingly cheap but it's not 40 million.

Have you thought about applying for a job as climatologist with our current Presidential administration?

[Thad Bosley]

4 hours ago, Dam8610 said:

This all does seem like a bit of overreaction to a bad 10-15 game stretch, which are going to happen with a team full of projects, developmental guys, and has-beens, which is what this team is right now. What I want to see is continued signs or new signs of improvement from Moncada, Anderson, Sanchez, Delmonico, Davidson, Thompson, the Garcias, Giolito, Lopez, and Fulmer and a team that never quits and always puts in high effort. As long as we're getting the latter, I can't really complain unless we aren't seeing any of the former. Development isn't linear and struggles should be expected.

...which is on the heels of a stretch of five absolutely brutal seasons from 2013-2016, which is on the heels of the team making just one trip to the playoffs (and a very brief one at that) since the team walked off the field in Houston as WS champs back in ‘05.  

Plenty for our beleaguered fan base to be frustrated about at this point in time.  

[Balta1701]

21 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

...which is on the heels of a stretch of five absolutely brutal seasons from 2013-2016, which is on the heels of the team making just one trip to the playoffs (and a very brief one at that) since the team walked off the field in Houston as WS champs back in ‘05.  

Plenty for our beleaguered fan base to be frustrated about at this point in time.  

If you want to make the case that all of upper management should have been fired after 2013, 2015, 2016, and then again after the Shields trade for good measure, I have no issue with that. 

None of that makes what we're doing right now the wrong move. Rather, the 2015 and 2016 seasons were basically "all in" style bets and now is the payoff for them.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Random useful piece ? Maye the board was split about 50/50 on it. If I recall correctly you were one who hated that move the most and now you call him a random useful piece ? The board also hated the Shields move , Let's face it management was epically bad at picking useful free agents and draft picks and ignored or were jailed for international signings. You know this because I've seen you say so.

A random useful piece would've been Moustakas for the price he ended up going for. Many were against signing him because Yolmer & Davidson need AB's. I  get that . But also many who were against it also said well I'd take him if he fell in price to $10M a year or so. I kept telling whoever would listen that they were pricing him way too high once it got closer and closer to the season and it was becoming obvious no one wanted him because of the draft pick attached and basically forcing other teams into other choices with his early price demands. I have no idea if he would've taken a 3 or 4 year deal below $10M a year but he might have rather then betting on himself for a one year deal  when you never know if injury could screw up that season. We'll see what he ends of getting without the draft pick attached if he has a good year. It's looking like signing him wasn't such a bad idea now that we know for sure Machado is a SS and will want to stay a SS.

[caulfield12]

At the very least, Moustakas would be earning his money as a DH or 1B at those salary numbers, there's certainly no arguing that point with how well he's produced (offensively alone) so far this year.

The only one to be blocked would theoretically be Davidson (or possibly Delmonico).

That said, there's no reason they can't go after him again this next off-season.

[wrathofhahn]

On 4/22/2018 at 10:46 PM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Precisely what my numerous posts in the other threads are getting at . They basically go ignored while more silly/ insensitive comments draw out the moral outrage and the pc police. No one really wants to discuss the whole "trust issue " a lot of fans have.

I have no intention of trusting the process. Trust is earned not handed over on a silver platter. The only trust this front office has earned is in the ability to somehow fuck up while apparently doing their best to do the right thing. If that's their best efforts  how can I trust in their process ?

I think you do that by looking at the deals he pulled off last year. The Sale trade. The Q deal. The Eaton deal. The Robertson trade. Even the Soria deal this offseason was good work.

I mean those deals should build trust and I'm confident that if/when we sell Abreu and Avi Hahn will be able to maximize what we get back.

Once we come out of the rebuild whether these are the guys to lead us into contention well that is an open question but they've done really good work on the rebuild we are much farther along then most teams year 1 in a rebuild. They sort of should have everyones complete confidence to at least continue the process.

 

[caulfield12]

Complete confidence, no.

They deserve to see things through until that position no longer becomes tenable...but you could almost say the same thing for the ownership group as well at this particular point in time.

I wish I could find the stat again...it was about Top 3 or Top 5 ranked Baseball America milb systems (in the past) not to eventually lead to a playoff appearance in the subsequent/trailing 3-5 years, and there might have been only one team not to make it following that recognition going back to 2000 or so.

Not saying just a single playoff team from 2019-24 would qualify the Sox rebuild as a success...but a starting point, at least. 

[Sarava]

21 hours ago, SCCWS said:

If the attached is correct, the White Sox  had the 2nd largest % increase in ticket prices in 2018. But they also are in the bottom 3rd for overall ticket pricing.   They probably should be running ticket promotions to attract fans understanding the product may be more AAA  than MLB quality. 

 

https://www.vividseats.com/blog/2018-mlb-ticket-prices

They have some far out promotions. For example, the Star Wars night. If you buy tickets through their link, you get a Star Wars/Sox beanie, the hawk solo bobblehead and can walk around the warning track in a mini parade before the game. That's a lot of extras to entice people.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, wrathofhahn said:

I think you do that by looking at the deals he pulled off last year. The Sale trade. The Q deal. The Eaton deal. The Robertson trade. Even the Soria deal this offseason was good work.

I mean those deals should build trust and I'm confident that if/when we sell Abreu and Avi Hahn will be able to maximize what we get back.

Once we come out of the rebuild whether these are the guys to lead us into contention well that is an open question but they've done really good work on the rebuild we are much farther along then most teams year 1 in a rebuild. They sort of should have everyones complete confidence to at least continue the process.

 

Hey don't get me wrong I think they gave done a fine job to this point in the rebuild.  However there is a long long way to go. They've never shown the ability to pick free agents . Maybe its just more difficult when never landing the big fish but always working in the murkier waters of free agency when things aren't so clear. they've picked up some really bad guys like Laroche and Shields to try and add some finishing touches. Maybe its harder to strike out when going after the Machado's and Harpers and Arenados of the world. But if they don't land the big fish we are right back in the murky water again. The rebuild might need finishing touches too.

Yes they picked up other teams top talents. lets see if they can put the finishing touches on their development. Let's see how the last 4 draft classes and the next 2 go in sustaining or adding to the rebuild . I know it's not an easy thing to do just because the Cubs and Astros made it look easy. Let's see if they are more aggressive in the international market once the Robert punishment is over as they should be .

If the Sox can get some playoff wins in consecutive years or 3 in 5 years or 4 in 6 I will consider the rebuild successful. I mean it doesn't necessarily have to produce a World Champ even though we'd like it to produce a few. Accomplish something the Sox have never done before . Win the division title and advance into the playoffs deeper more than one year in a row and then I will tip my cap assuming I'm still around.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Hey don't get me wrong I think they gave done a fine job to this point in the rebuild.  However there is a long long way to go. They've never shown the ability to pick free agents . Maybe its just more difficult when never landing the big fish but always working in the murkier waters of free agency when things aren't so clear. they've picked up some really bad guys like Laroche and Shields to try and add some finishing touches. Maybe its harder to strike out when going after the Machado's and Harpers and Arenados of the world. But if they don't land the big fish we are right back in the murky water again. The rebuild might need finishing touches too.

Yes they picked up other teams top talents. lets see if they can put the finishing touches on their development. Let's see how the last 4 draft classes and the next 2 go in sustaining or adding to the rebuild . I know it's not an easy thing to do just because the Cubs and Astros made it look easy. Let's see if they are more aggressive in the international market once the Robert punishment is over as they should be .

If the Sox can get some playoff wins in consecutive years or 3 in 5 years or 4 in 6 I will consider the rebuild successful. I mean it doesn't necessarily have to produce a World Champ even though we'd like it to produce a few. Accomplish something the Sox have never done before . Win the division title and advance into the playoffs deeper more than one year in a row and then I will tip my cap assuming I'm still around.

We should be very much evaluating RH and RR and others based on whether or not those things happen. If this team is not substantially improved next year, if this team is not in the playoffs in 2020, then that means some of these acquisitions seriously flopped and that would be enough to call for some people's jobs again.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

9 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

At the very least, Moustakas would be earning his money as a DH or 1B at those salary numbers, there's certainly no arguing that point with how well he's produced (offensively alone) so far this year.

The only one to be blocked would theoretically be Davidson (or possibly Delmonico).

That said, there's no reason they can't go after him again this next off-season.

That may be the equivalent of a day late and a dollar short. You strike while the iron is hot. (I'm full of old cliches)

I won't even go so far as to say signing Moose would ve been wise  . It's a long season and you never know if or when things will go south. Right now I am in no position to say I told you so. I just thought at the time it was a prudent move based on position of need and market conditions.

[wrathofhahn]

22 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

We should be very much evaluating RH and RR and others based on whether or not those things happen. If this team is not substantially improved next year, if this team is not in the playoffs in 2020, then that means some of these acquisitions seriously flopped and that would be enough to call for some people's jobs again.

Agreed my position is get as many prospects as you can so if a couple flame out which they will we are still in a good position.

That means for me this year we sell off the rest of our remaining assets. Abreu. Avi. Jones. Soria. I still hope we can get one more big package with what we have left.

The other benefit of moving them now is our contention window is 2020 like you said so even if these prospects are blocked and never play for us they still can be moved for cost controlled guys in 2020 at positions of need. I'm not sure the same can be said for Abreu once he signs an extension or Avi  who will both be signed at that point to new deals and two years. So the time is nigh to make a move assuming the standard things they are playing well, there is a market for them, they get a good offer, etc.

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by wrathofhahn

[Balta1701]

Just now, wrathofhahn said:

Agreed my position is get as many prospects as you can so if a couple flame out which they will we are still in a good position.

That means for me this year we sell off the rest of our remaining assets. Abreu. Avi. Jones. Soria. I still hope we can get one more big package with what we have left.

The other benefit of moving them now is our contention window is 2020 like you said so even if these prospects are blocked and never play for us they still can be moved for cost controlled guys in 2020 at positions of need. I'm not sure the same can be said for Abreu once he signs an extension or Avi. So the time is nigh to make a move assuming the standard things they are playing well, there is a market for them, they get a good offer, etc.

As of right now I don't see much value in any of those guys. If Jones is healthy come July I do think he'll be moved, but his injury history is going to mean that you're not getting a huge package for him even if he's performing great. If Jones is healthy come July you have to move him, because he's going to get hurt again at some point and there's no reason for us to take that gamble. 

Soria...well so far he hasn't shown enough to be worth anything. Avi looks 2016 bad again, so blah if he's this guy even for a few more weeks then he's useless in a trade, he had to be hammering the ball non stop again this year to be worth anything.

Abreu...well he's still mashing the ball, he'd have some trade value, but it still seems like we're in the "more valuable to us than what we'd get in a trade for him" mode, especially with the weak numbers we saw sluggers getting on last year's free agent market. 

So Jones will either be moved or will be on the DL, Soria will probably be moved but that will bring back scraps, Abreu they'll listen but not get offers good enough to move him, and Avi right now looks worthless.

[Lip Man 1]

29 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

We should be very much evaluating RH and RR and others based on whether or not those things happen. If this team is not substantially improved next year, if this team is not in the playoffs in 2020, then that means some of these acquisitions seriously flopped and that would be enough to call for some people's jobs again.

Some other factors will be in play assuming your comment comes to pass, namely if JR is still the owner and if he is, remember how much loyalty means to him, even in a situation where the rebuild is not successful.

Those are wild cards moving forward, again if your comment actually happened in the next few seasons.

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Some other factors will be in play assuming your comment comes to pass, namely if JR is still the owner and if he is, remember how much loyalty means to him, even in a situation where the rebuild is not successful.

Those are wild cards moving forward, again if your comment actually happened in the next few seasons.

Jerry is 82.  There is a pretty fair chance  he isn't here for the next playoff team.

[wrathofhahn]

19 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

As of right now I don't see much value in any of those guys. If Jones is healthy come July I do think he'll be moved, but his injury history is going to mean that you're not getting a huge package for him even if he's performing great. If Jones is healthy come July you have to move him, because he's going to get hurt again at some point and there's no reason for us to take that gamble. 

Soria...well so far he hasn't shown enough to be worth anything. Avi looks 2016 bad again, so blah if he's this guy even for a few more weeks then he's useless in a trade, he had to be hammering the ball non stop again this year to be worth anything.

Abreu...well he's still mashing the ball, he'd have some trade value, but it still seems like we're in the "more valuable to us than what we'd get in a trade for him" mode, especially with the weak numbers we saw sluggers getting on last year's free agent market. 

So Jones will either be moved or will be on the DL, Soria will probably be moved but that will bring back scraps, Abreu they'll listen but not get offers good enough to move him, and Avi right now looks worthless.

It really depends on how the season plays out and who needs a 1B/DH. For example last year we did a good job playing the Yanks and Redsox off each other ultimately convincing them to take on Robertsons entire deal along with Frazier for two good prospects.

[Thad Bosley]

8 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

I think you do that by looking at the deals he pulled off last year. The Sale trade. The Q deal. The Eaton deal. The Robertson trade. Even the Soria deal this offseason was good work.

I mean those deals should build trust and I'm confident that if/when we sell Abreu and Avi Hahn will be able to maximize what we get back.

Once we come out of the rebuild whether these are the guys to lead us into contention well that is an open question but they've done really good work on the rebuild we are much farther along then most teams year 1 in a rebuild. They sort of should have everyones complete confidence to at least continue the process.

 

Having “trust” and “complete confidence” in a management team with the horrible record this one has is foolish and unwarranted. What Sox fans can have is “hope” they finally get this thing right.