Trust the process

[Dick Allen]

34 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

One Hall of Famer, one Hall of Very Good-er, and another with essentially 8 years of service at the major league level.  That is actually pretty crazy.

 We will see with Collins. Hostetler, and it could have been just lip service, did say he would have taken him 1-1.

[Dick Allen]

But the development staff does need to be questioned. If Mike Trout gets drafted by the Sox, is he a HOFer?  Are Mitchell and Hawkins legit major leaguers if some other team drafted them? 

 

It probably all falls pretty much as it did in reality. But questioning it IMO is legitmate.

[Dunt]

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Whille true, these aren't guys right now you can say are anchors for a championship contending team. Still a lot of question marks with all of them. But it is better than what they were producing. I will admit that. 

No one is saying they are anchors, but they will be the compliments to the anchors. You need guys like Sanchez and Anderson on championship caliber teams. The anchors are Moncada, Abreu, Kopech, Eloy, and hopefully Robert and Hansen though.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

On 4/22/2018 at 8:43 PM, wrathofhahn said:

Honestly people who are saying this team is bad what can be done to fix this mess don't understand this team was meant to be bad and it will only get worse.

Rebuilds don't happen in a year and no we shouldn't be going after Manchado next year. If you don't trust the process and the rebuild that's fine but dear god give it more then a year before trying to pull the plug.

I agree on the Machado part. Ironically, the White Sox have one of the best infields (1B to 3B) in MLB so far this season. Abreu, Moncada, Anderson, and Sanchez have combined for 2.7 fWAR. Everyone raves about the Cubs' 1B to 3B infield and they have only combined for 2.3 fWAR. So is SS/3B really that much of a glaring weakness considering Anderson is signed thru 2024 and Sanchez is under control thru 2021? I was advocating for a long term Moustakas signing last winter because I think he'd be everything we wished Matt Davidson was. A guy that can rotate defensively between 3B, 1B, and DH and provide serious pop in the middle of the lineup. I don't see the need to throw a ton of cash at Machado when there are other more pressing needs. 

Also ironically, the biggest area of weakness on the current team is the outfield (though I guess this was somewhat expected). It is absolutely dreadful. Far and away the worst in MLB. I understand the guys on the current MLB roster won't be here in another two years most likely and that the farm is stacked with outfielders but I still see the outfield as a bigger need for the foreseeable future than the infield. Obviously, catcher is another area of major concern. To me, in regards to position players, I'd rather invest resources in an outfielder (Pollock?), a corner infielder (Moustakas), and a catcher (likely need to trade for one). I think you need to spread the cash and trade assets across multiple needs since, in addition to the holes mentioned, the pitching staff is also going to need multiple veteran additions and likely expensive ones at that (#2/3 starter, proven closer, setup guy).

The future payroll is ridiculously low in the coming years but that cushion starts to go away rather quickly once you start making multiple additions through free agency and/or trades and I'd rather not tie up $35MM AAV for one player.

Edited April 25, 2018 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[caulfield12]

Can’t disagree with anything said there.

Anyone with an inkling of what kind of contract in terms of years and dollars that Pollock’s looking for?

And let’s just hope we can get that catcher or set-up guy internally.  

[frogsplash31]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Can’t disagree with anything said there.

Anyone with an inkling of what kind of contract in terms of years and dollars that Pollock’s looking for?

And let’s just hope we can get that catcher or set-up guy internally.  

Maybe something a little more than what Cain got? 5/90ish?

[LittleHurt05]

7 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

One Hall of Famer, one Hall of Very Good-er, and another with essentially 8 years of service at the major league level.  That is actually pretty crazy.

When you put it that way, it's actually hard to label Beckham as a total bust. It feels that way for Sox fans but he's probably played more games than the average for his draft slot, given how unpredictable baseball can be.

[Dam8610]

7 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I agree on the Machado part. Ironically, the White Sox have one of the best infields (1B to 3B) in MLB so far this season. Abreu, Moncada, Anderson, and Sanchez have combined for 2.7 fWAR. Everyone raves about the Cubs' 1B to 3B infield and they have only combined for 2.3 fWAR. So is SS/3B really that much of a glaring weakness considering Anderson is signed thru 2024 and Sanchez is under control thru 2021? I was advocating for a long term Moustakas signing last winter because I think he'd be everything we wished Matt Davidson was. A guy that can rotate defensively between 3B, 1B, and DH and provide serious pop in the middle of the lineup. I don't see the need to throw a ton of cash at Machado when there are other more pressing needs. 

Also ironically, the biggest area of weakness on the current team is the outfield (though I guess this was somewhat expected). It is absolutely dreadful. Far and away the worst in MLB. I understand the guys on the current MLB roster won't be here in another two years most likely and that the farm is stacked with outfielders but I still see the outfield as a bigger need for the foreseeable future than the infield. Obviously, catcher is another area of major concern. To me, in regards to position players, I'd rather invest resources in an outfielder (Pollock?), a corner infielder (Moustakas), and a catcher (likely need to trade for one). I think you need to spread the cash and trade assets across multiple needs since, in addition to the holes mentioned, the pitching staff is also going to need multiple veteran additions and likely expensive ones at that (#2/3 starter, proven closer, setup guy).

The future payroll is ridiculously low in the coming years but that cushion starts to go away rather quickly once you start making multiple additions through free agency and/or trades and I'd rather not tie up $35MM AAV for one player.

There are internal solutions for every need you listed.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, Dam8610 said:

There are internal solutions for every need you listed.

Can’t count on every one or even most of those internal options working out. If the Sox can fill out an entire quality rotation and bullpen with internal options alone, I’d be shocked.

[Dam8610]

54 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Can’t count on every one or even most of those internal options working out. If the Sox can fill out an entire quality rotation and bullpen with internal options alone, I’d be shocked.

I wouldn't. They have about 25 pitchers for 12 spots. 

[caulfield12]

https://sports.yahoo.com/will-baseball-gods-reward-marlins-playing-hard-153210559.html

Will the baseball gods reward these Marlins for playing hard?

Lots of lessons/analogies (minus Jeter and trading Eaton/Sale/Q last offseason vs. what Miami did this past offseason)

[Dam8610]

39 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

https://sports.yahoo.com/will-baseball-gods-reward-marlins-playing-hard-153210559.html

Will the baseball gods reward these Marlins for playing hard?

Lots of lessons/analogies (minus Jeter and trading Eaton/Sale/Q last offseason vs. what Miami did this past offseason)

I hope so, less competition for the #1 pick.

[caulfield12]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2771769-padres-144m-eric-hosmer-risk-backfiring-giving-credibility-to-mlb-tanking?src=rss

Padres' $144M Eric Hosmer Risk Backfiring, Giving Credibility to MLB Tanking

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/04/25/cincinnati-reds-who-goes-see-worst-team-baseball-meet-them/543434002/

Who actually goes to see the worst team in baseball?  Meet them...

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

7 hours ago, Dam8610 said:

I wouldn't. They have about 25 pitchers for 12 spots. 

Has any team in recent memory won a title utilizing internal options alone? It’s guaranteed that the Sox will need to fill multiple holes with veterans through free agency and/or trades if this rebuild is going to work. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

[caulfield12]

The Braves built around Glavine, Avery and Smoltz (trade with Tigers for Doyle Alexander), later Jason Schmidt...but they didnt take the next step until they added Greg Maddux.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

51 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The Braves built around Glavine, Avery and Smoltz (trade with Tigers for Doyle Alexander), later Jason Schmidt...but they didnt take the next step until they added Greg Maddux.

Yes, that’s probably the best somewhat recent example of filling out a starting rotation with internal options but like you said the Maddux free agent acquisition was key. That’s precisely what I think the Sox will need - a veteran, high end #2/3 starter (along the lines of Keuchel/Corbin). I also don’t buy the idea that they can fill out their entire bullpen with quality options with just internal guys. At a minimum, they need a proven closer and setup guy. Playoff teams need multiple reliable relief options to win with how starters are used these days so guys like Burdi and Jones can be those 6/7/8th inning guys in addition to another dominant setup guy and a top notch closer. Eventually, perhaps a guy like Burdi grows into the closer role but I wouldn’t count on him being that guy starting next year or even 2020 for that matter. Until then, give me a Kimbrel or Allen to hold down the 9th over the next few years at least.

Edited April 26, 2018 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

The Braves built around Glavine, Avery and Smoltz (trade with Tigers for Doyle Alexander), later Jason Schmidt...but they didnt take the next step until they added Greg Maddux.

Yeah, they didn't take the next step. They only got to the 10th inning of game 7 of the world series in a game that wound up 1-0 without Maddux. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I would also be totally shocked. SSk2 also believes this and I've discussed it with him. Just seems so far fetched when you think of all the starters and relievers that WS winners have acquired. I'd have to challenge anyone to find every pitcher on a WS winner that was strictly from their minor league system and I'll even allow for minor leaguers who were traded for and were later brought up in the last 25 years.

[LittleHurt05]

7 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2771769-padres-144m-eric-hosmer-risk-backfiring-giving-credibility-to-mlb-tanking?src=rss

Padres' $144M Eric Hosmer Risk Backfiring, Giving Credibility to MLB Tanking

 

That is just crap.

Eric Hosmer on the morning of April 26, 2017:  .195/.253/.247

Eric Hosmer on the morning of April 26, 2018:  .259/.364/.412

[southsider2k5]

12 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Can’t count on every one or even most of those internal options working out. If the Sox can fill out an entire quality rotation and bullpen with internal options alone, I’d be shocked.

If the Sox really do have to go outside of the organization in a few years for pitching options other than back end filler, we are in big trouble.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

If the Sox really do have to go outside of the organization in a few years for pitching options other than back end filler, we are in big trouble.

I still think there's plenty of room for a top flight reliever.

[southsider2k5]

4 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Has any team in recent memory won a title utilizing internal options alone? It’s guaranteed that the Sox will need to fill multiple holes with veterans through free agency and/or trades if this rebuild is going to work. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

To be fair, can you name a question that has approached radical rebuilding through a pitching first approach like the Sox have?  I sure can't recall one.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I still think there's plenty of room for a top flight reliever.

I still think there are plenty of options in the system for them.  Between the guys who have already hit 100 mph, plus the guys who are sitting in the 97-99 range, we have probably a dozen arms still in the minors, plus what we already have here.

[Balta1701]

20 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

To be fair, can you name a question that has approached radical rebuilding through a pitching first approach like the Sox have?  I sure can't recall one.

The Mets

[Dam8610]

4 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Has any team in recent memory won a title utilizing internal options alone? It’s guaranteed that the Sox will need to fill multiple holes with veterans through free agency and/or trades if this rebuild is going to work. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

Has any team in recent memory assembled the level of pitching talent in their organization that the White Sox have?

Let's just look at what they have:

Pitchers with Ace Potential

Carlos Rodon

Michael Kopech

Reynaldo Lopez

Lucas Giolito

Alec Hansen 

Dylan Cease

 

Pitchers with #2/#3 Potential

Dane Dunning

Ian Clarkin

Spencer Adams

 

Pitchers with Backend Starter Potential

Carson Fulmer

Ricardo Pinto

Jordan Stephens

Jordan Guerrero

A.J. Puckett

Lincoln Henzman

Kade McClure

 

Pitchers with Relief Potential

Nate Jones (HL)

Aaron Bummer

Jace Fry

Zack Burdi (HL)

Thyago Vieira (HL)

Brian Clark

Ian Hamilton (HL)

Ryan Burr

Victor Diaz

Danny Dopico

Tyler Johnson (HL)

Kevin Escorcia

Matt Foster

J.B. Olson

 

I'm certain I've forgotten some here, but basically the ideal is that at least 3 from category 1 live up to billing, at least 1 from category 2 lives up to billing, and at least 1 from category 3 lives up to billing. Also, all the pitchers that fail as starters become relief options, so you're looking at about 16 pitchers to fill 5 starting slots and 25 pitchers to fill 7 relief spots (the 11 in the starter categories that don't pan out as starters plus the 14 listed relief names. If ever a team was capable of fully stocking its pitching staff from within, it's this team.