Eloy Jimenez

[Sarava]

1 minute ago, LittleHurt05 said:

To win a World Series during the 6 year period you have the core in their prime.

We just have to hope/assume that they will do what it takes to keep these guys when the time comes. I mean, they did hold on to Frank until very late in his career. There's no precedence to suggest that the Sox will act like the Pirates or A's and sell them off when they get expensive.

[greg775]

1 minute ago, Dam8610 said:

If the Sox aren't going to resign their core, what was the point of this exercise?

To win a WS before we lose them to free agency. Hope one or two want to stay with a WS team and give a bargain. The timing to where they are not all free agents the same year and the Sox have plenty of talent arond to keep winning. 

[Sarava]

The Sox are going to need to gamble and offer some of these guys Sale/Quintana/Eaton type contracts. I doubt the Jimenez's or Moncada's will take them, but the pitchers very well might in fear of arm injuries. If you get a few to take them and get some cost certainty with that, that probably allows you to pay 1 or 2 of the others the big money when the time comes.

[greg775]

It's hard to imagine a team with Eloy, Moncada, Anderson, JoseA, Avi and Davidson playing every day keep losing at a record clip. And with Kopech being an ace. Bt with this pitching staff and defense it's possible we wld keep losing.

Edited May 10, 2018 by greg775

[Jose Abreu]

Kopech isn't gonna be an ace right away. He's gonna struggle this year in the majors.

[greg775]

2 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

Kopech isn't gonna be an ace right away. He's gonna struggle this year in the majors.

Then I hope he stays in the minors til a start or two in September.

[Soxbadger]

24 minutes ago, Sarava said:

This....who exactly wants them called up for instant gratification? Other than Greg maybe, who hasn't been part of this thread today.

 

Im not going to write a list of people who on this board, on the radio, websites, twitter, facebook etc have suggested Kopech, Eloy and other prospects be called up this year. But again you said I took peoples quotes out of context.

Which quote did I take out of context?

Because that is what you said. 

[Blackout Friday]

10 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Then I hope he stays in the minors til a start or two in September.

Are you for real?  He should be in the minors unless he’s immediately an ace.

Think before you type  

 

[Wanne]

so for the ones insisting Jimenez stays in the minors until next year (regardless as to whether he's hitting the crap outta the ball...which all indications point to he will be)...you think Hahn was just blowing smoke up people's asses saying the players will dictate when they get called up?   Then say it's to make sure you can hang on to him for that extra year...until he signs with someone else...which he very well might if you piss him off now by keeping him where he doesn't belong.  Just doesn't make any sense to not call him up in July IF he's raking in AAA.  You want to be a player in FA this offseason too?...you better give others a glimpse of what they'll see. 

[Soxbadger]

I was told I was misquoting people because no one is suggesting Eloy be brought up to the majors this season. Thus there is no way to discuss that hypothetical.

[greg775]

6 minutes ago, Blackout Friday said:

Are you for real?  He should be in the minors unless he’s immediately an ace.

Think before you type  

 

Why are so many people comfortable in telling greg what to do?  I never said that.

[LittleHurt05]

46 minutes ago, ptatc said:

It's usually the manger who hires the coaches, but here it's always KW whether he's the GM, VP or director of player development.

LOL, you do have a point on there, but it's not a good look when you blame a prospect's failure solely on a coach who was under you for 9 years.

[southsider2k5]

38 minutes ago, Sarava said:

The Sox are going to need to gamble and offer some of these guys Sale/Quintana/Eaton type contracts. I doubt the Jimenez's or Moncada's will take them, but the pitchers very well might in fear of arm injuries. If you get a few to take them and get some cost certainty with that, that probably allows you to pay 1 or 2 of the others the big money when the time comes.

If the implication is that they haven't tried, or that they won't try, this couldn't be further from the truth.  The early extension is something the White Sox really try hard for.  They just signed up Tim Anderson to one this time last year, so it isn't like they haven't gotten away from it.  I am at about a 3 standard deviation certainty that they have approached the guys they want to approach with these sorts of deals.  I am also incredibly positive that they will continue to do so as guys like Kopech, Jimenez, and company make it to the majors.

This is standard operating procedure for the Chicago White Sox.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

I was told I was misquoting people because no one is suggesting Eloy be brought up to the majors this season. Thus there is no way to discuss that hypothetical.

Ok please be fair yes most of us said this year but your original post just said called up and instant gratification. No we don't want him called up (right now) for instant gratification we we want him to go to AAA and come up when/if he mashes there. That isn't instant gratification that is reasonable for us, the players on the team now and any potential free agents to get a glimpse of the future and mostly to Eloy because he will deserve it.

[southsider2k5]

 

[Soxbadger]

13 minutes ago, Wanne said:

so for the ones insisting Jimenez stays in the minors until next year (regardless as to whether he's hitting the crap outta the ball...which all indications point to he will be)...you think Hahn was just blowing smoke up people's asses saying the players will dictate when they get called up?   Then say it's to make sure you can hang on to him for that extra year...until he signs with someone else...which he very well might if you piss him off now by keeping him where he doesn't belong.  Just doesn't make any sense to not call him up in July IF he's raking in AAA.  You want to be a player in FA this offseason too?...you better give others a glimpse of what they'll see. 

Before I couldnt pass up the irony, but now Ill post legitimately.

I think Hahn is smart. If he says "We are going to purposefully hold back players to get 1 year of extra control" it opens the Sox up to player grievances and potentially losing that year of control (I think Boras tried something like this with Bryant.) So there is literally nothing to gain by saying anything other than "We will of course call up players as soon as they are ready."

You cant really worry about 6 years from now and what may or may not happen with Eloy's contract because its just to uncertain. The Sox could call him up today, do everything he wants and he still may leave for money 6 years from now. So the Sox have to use what control they have. The Sox are not going to be good this year and they probably arent going to be a World Series contender next year. But 6 years from now? Maybe they will be good, maybe losing him 1 year early will mean 1 less shot at a WS. That is something entirely in the Sox control and why it is extremely nearsighted to risk that.

As for FA's, I have to be realistic. The chances the Sox are going to outspend the Yankees etc, this offseason is really low. The Sox have no Lester-Epstein connection where if things are close you can hope that a guy like Machado etc will give the Sox a chance. Its just not reasonable to believe that. And given the current state of baseball, its just a bad year for an "up and coming" team to make a splash, unless they significantly overpay. The Yankees/Red Sox are teams hitting their primes, with cash to spend. Then you have the Dodgers etc, all loading up for this class.

 

The Cubs got lucky with their timing. But in reality, the trade for Arrieta was just as important as the signing of Lester. That is the type of thing the Sox could accomplish. Getting a guy with talent, who hasnt performed and giving him a shot. The sad part about this statement, is that Arrieta should have been on the Sox but for a failed physical of Jesse Crain.

 

How different would all of this been had that trade gone through?

[Soxbadger]

8 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Ok please be fair yes most of us said this year but your original post just said called up and instant gratification. No we don't want him called up (right now) for instant gratification we we want him to go to AAA and come up when/if he mashes there. That isn't instant gratification that is reasonable for us, the players on the team now and any potential free agents to get a glimpse of the future and mostly to Eloy because he will deserve it.

Then you misinterpreted my post. I meant people saying Eloy should be called up this year for the instant gratification of seeing a player in a lost season. Or people who were hoping Kopech would pitch this weekend against the Cubs, or that Eloy being called up this weekend to face the Cubs would be a great "troll" of the Cubs.

This comment was not limited to this thread. And its well supported by multiple threads suggesting prospects should be called up this year.

 

 

[Sarava]

16 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If the implication is that they haven't tried, or that they won't try, this couldn't be further from the truth.  The early extension is something the White Sox really try hard for.  They just signed up Tim Anderson to one this time last year, so it isn't like they haven't gotten away from it.  I am at about a 3 standard deviation certainty that they have approached the guys they want to approach with these sorts of deals.  I am also incredibly positive that they will continue to do so as guys like Kopech, Jimenez, and company make it to the majors.

This is standard operating procedure for the Chicago White Sox.

No I didn't intend to imply that. Just pointing out that it is possible to keep this thing together even if several of these guys reach their potential. I fully expect them to try to get more contracts like this done. Reynaldo Lopez looks like the best early candidate at this point.

[ptatc]

29 minutes ago, LittleHurt05 said:

LOL, you do have a point on there, but it's not a good look when you blame a prospect's failure solely on a coach who was under you for 9 years.

No doubt. Not a good move. But if Ozzie hired walker, we know KW and Ozzie were at odds about many things, especially at the end. This could have been a shot at Ozzie.

Edited May 10, 2018 by ptatc

[ChiSox59]

34 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Why are so many people comfortable in telling greg what to do?  I never said that.

Why do you post so much?  

[ptatc]

14 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Before I couldnt pass up the irony, but now Ill post legitimately.

I think Hahn is smart. If he says "We are going to purposefully hold back players to get 1 year of extra control" it opens the Sox up to player grievances and potentially losing that year of control (I think Boras tried something like this with Bryant.) So there is literally nothing to gain by saying anything other than "We will of course call up players as soon as they are ready."

You cant really worry about 6 years from now and what may or may not happen with Eloy's contract because its just to uncertain. The Sox could call him up today, do everything he wants and he still may leave for money 6 years from now. So the Sox have to use what control they have. The Sox are not going to be good this year and they probably arent going to be a World Series contender next year. But 6 years from now? Maybe they will be good, maybe losing him 1 year early will mean 1 less shot at a WS. That is something entirely in the Sox control and why it is extremely nearsighted to risk that.

As for FA's, I have to be realistic. The chances the Sox are going to outspend the Yankees etc, this offseason is really low. The Sox have no Lester-Epstein connection where if things are close you can hope that a guy like Machado etc will give the Sox a chance. Its just not reasonable to believe that. And given the current state of baseball, its just a bad year for an "up and coming" team to make a splash, unless they significantly overpay. The Yankees/Red Sox are teams hitting their primes, with cash to spend. Then you have the Dodgers etc, all loading up for this class.

 

The Cubs got lucky with their timing. But in reality, the trade for Arrieta was just as important as the signing of Lester. That is the type of thing the Sox could accomplish. Getting a guy with talent, who hasnt performed and giving him a shot. The sad part about this statement, is that Arrieta should have been on the Sox but for a failed physical of Jesse Crain.

 

How different would all of this been had that trade gone through?

I think part of the pint is that he needs to come up and learn at the MLB level prior to the Sox "window." This is tryue for all of the prospects. You can't expect them to be great their first year. The Sox should expect a learning year. So if they expect to contend in 2020, the logical progression is bring them up at some point this year, get settled and learn in their first full year (2019) and contend the next (2020).

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

12 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Then you misinterpreted my post. I meant people saying Eloy should be called up this year for the instant gratification of seeing a player in a lost season. Or people who were hoping Kopech would pitch this weekend against the Cubs, or that Eloy being called up this weekend to face the Cubs would be a great "troll" of the Cubs.

This comment was not limited to this thread. And its well supported by multiple threads suggesting prospects should be called up this year.

 

 

Or perhaps you were not clear enough since called up usually means to the big leagues and instant gratification is a term that means, well ,right away. The Kopech speculation was just people letting their imaginations run wild. The more reasonable of us including me rebuffed that notion pretty strongly.

Whether you like it or not Kopech and JImenez will be called up at some point this year unless they both start sucking very soon or get injured. It's just a matter of when. Will that then be considered instant gratification by the front office ?

[Soxbadger]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I think part of the pint is that he needs to come up and learn at the MLB level prior to the Sox "window." This is tryue for all of the prospects. You can't expect them to be great their first year. The Sox should expect a learning year. So if they expect to contend in 2020, the logical progression is bring them up at some point this year, get settled and learn in their first full year (2019) and contend the next (2020).

Ptatc,

That is the part of the equation that it is a little harder. With all of the stupid control rules, its just hard to tell whether 2 extra months (give or take in the majors) outweighs a full year of control. If the Sox were closer to being good and didnt have so many young players, Id be more inclined to maybe burn the year of the control.

My concern is that Eloy is really part of the "first wave", I think that many of the Sox prospects wont be debuting until late 2019 or possibly even early 2020. 

 

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Ptatc,

That is the part of the equation that it is a little harder. With all of the stupid control rules, its just hard to tell whether 2 extra months (give or take in the majors) outweighs a full year of control. If the Sox were closer to being good and didnt have so many young players, Id be more inclined to maybe burn the year of the control.

My concern is that Eloy is really part of the "first wave", I think that many of the Sox prospects wont be debuting until late 2019 or possibly even early 2020. 

 

I think early 2020 is a little late if they plan on competing in 2020. look at Moncada last year vs. this year. At the latest I would think it would be June/July 2019.

[Soxbadger]

6 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Or perhaps you were not clear enough since called up usually means to the big leagues and instant gratification is a term that means, well ,right away. The Kopech speculation was just people letting their imaginations run wild. The more reasonable of us including me rebuffed that notion pretty strongly.

Whether you like it or not Kopech and JImenez will be called up at some point this year unless they both start sucking very soon or get injured. It's just a matter of when. Will that then be considered instant gratification by the front office ?

 

Youre really trying hard to parse a statement that is supported by multiple posts on this board, let alone other places including talking to Sox fans off the board. Not sure what the problem with it was or is.

I dont think the Sox should call up Kopech or Eloy this year. Kopech is even easier because last year he only pitched 134 innings. By the time its September hed be pushing way to many innings to let him pitch the whole month. So youre basically burning a full year of control over a handful of starts? That doest seem economically sound.

 

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

I think early 2020 is a little late if they plan on competing in 2020. look at Moncada last year vs. this year. At the latest I would think it would be June/July 2019.

 

It depends on what you mean by competing in 2020. I think that making the playoffs/ being competitive in the AL Central is a lot different than being competitive for the World Series. 

I dont think it will really take much for the Sox to be competitive in the AL central. But Yankees/Red Sox seem to be primed to be really good those years.