Eloy/Kopech could join Sox in mid July

[Chicago White Sox]

7 minutes ago, raBBit said:

He wouldn't sign just his name on a jersey or a baseball card?

On a baseball at least.  He personalized autographs with the requester’s name.  I had to get my kid’s name on there which kind of sucks.  Not sure why, hell his intentions may have been good, but I heard multiple people complain about this and I would have preferred just his autograph.

[fathom]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

On a baseball at least.  He personalized autographs with the requester’s name.  I had to get my kid’s name on there which kind of sucks.  Not sure why, hell his intentions may have been good, but I heard multiple people complain about this and I would have preferred just his autograph.

Isn't this to avoid people selling them on ebay

[TheTruth05]

1 minute ago, fathom said:

Isn't this to avoid people selling them on ebay

That's exactly it.sucks a few assholes ruin it for everyone

[Chicago White Sox]

I know some players do that, but I’m at SoxFest with my 4 & 1 year old sons all decked out in Sox gear.  I doubt I look like the guy who might go sell his stuff on Ebay.  Regardless, I just think when you’re at a fan convention you shouldn’t worry about shit like that.  Doesn’t mean I think he’s a bad guy though.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 minutes ago, TheTruth05 said:

That's exactly it.sucks a few assholes ruin it for everyone

Yeah it really does.

[BFirebird]

On 5/20/2018 at 12:37 PM, Dick Allen said:

I just think these guys are supposedly elite. The 150 games on the roster in 2019 should be enough that in 2020 they are big pieces of a contender. If it wasn’t enough, and they still needed another 50 games, I would rather sacrifice that in 2020 than sacrifice an entire season at the end of their control when they should be at their peaks 

Development is not linear and every player is different. Trying to compare what Bryant did is silly and Ptac had a good counter argument in Rizzo who struggled twice before getting it. I think sacrificing a year of control to let both Kopech and Jimenez fail is the best plan. 20-24 is the target window.

[Dick Allen]

12 minutes ago, BFirebird said:

Development is not linear and every player is different. Trying to compare what Bryant did is silly and Ptac had a good counter argument in Rizzo who struggled twice before getting it. I think sacrificing a year of control to let both Kopech and Jimenez fail is the best plan. 20-24 is the target window.

Rizzo was never ranked where Eloy and Bryant are/where. And Rizzo took a step back with the Cubs as a 23 year old, but still was above average. And the Cubs and White Sox are quite different. You have to look at the future. If half of these guys are as good as you hope, and you spend, spend, spend, on free agents, you're going to want that extra year of control you gave up back in 2018 to throw a bone to the natives who aren't paying to watch you play now anyways. 

If 2019 was a realistic contending year, I would say call them up. But I do find it amusing that you shouldn't wait to call up guys based on future contracts, but it is OK to wait until after the Super 2 deadline. 

Edited May 22, 2018 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

Rizzo

2011 MILB Rank #75

2012 MILB Rank #47

 

A better comparison would be Reynaldo Lopez, in terms of prospect rankings...just because Rizzo has NOW become one of the best 1B in the major leagues over the last 3-4 years (well, this year he’s off to a disappointing start), we can’t go back with revisionist history and turn him into a “can’t miss” guy in the Top 5-10.

And it is sort of weird that a team with all the financial resources in the world was lauded for holding Bryant back when he was clearly ready for the big leagues...but we’re expected to push our guys up on some imaginary timetable because?   We’re much LESS likely to have the ability to keep multiple superstars in the long-term, so we should therefore do the opposite of the Cubs nonetheless...but why?

This season is lost already.   Is it really going to push Machado or Bryant over the edge to sign with us?   Fan service?

Edited May 22, 2018 by caulfield12

[soxfan49]

9 hours ago, raBBit said:

Cutler =/= Rodgers. Rodgers oozes leadership and competitiveness. I hate the Packers and I love watching him play. Cutler's personality is just so "blah." Cutler seems to keep a real low profile where Rodgers is really concerned with his image. I don't see it. 

Except a few ex Packers have come out and said that he was difficult to get along with. Rodgers also blew off a lady who had cancer at an airport despite Rodgers knowing she was going to be there. Cutler did so much under the radar charity work but because he didn’t smile and yell more, he wasn’t well thought of. Of course his underwhelming performances didn’t help, and that’s what I’m trying to say for Kopech- no one will mind if he’s a great pitcher.

[Sarava]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Rizzo was never ranked where Eloy and Bryant are/where. And Rizzo took a step back with the Cubs as a 23 year old, but still was above average. And the Cubs and White Sox are quite different. You have to look at the future. If half of these guys are as good as you hope, and you spend, spend, spend, on free agents, you're going to want that extra year of control you gave up back in 2018 to throw a bone to the natives who aren't paying to watch you play now anyways. 

 If 2019 was a realistic contending year, I would say call them up. But I do find it amusing that you shouldn't wait to call up guys based on future contracts, but it is OK to wait until after the Super 2 deadline. 

Holding them back a few extra weeks is a bit different than for 2/3 of a season.

I'm all for bringing them up when they are ready. But if that still has not come to Chicago by spring training next year, then yes, at that point I absolutely will be all for leaving them down for those extra couple of weeks.

[ptatc]

4 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Rizzo was never ranked where Eloy and Bryant are/where. And Rizzo took a step back with the Cubs as a 23 year old, but still was above average. And the Cubs and White Sox are quite different. You have to look at the future. If half of these guys are as good as you hope, and you spend, spend, spend, on free agents, you're going to want that extra year of control you gave up back in 2018 to throw a bone to the natives who aren't paying to watch you play now anyways. 

If 2019 was a realistic contending year, I would say call them up. But I do find it amusing that you shouldn't wait to call up guys based on future contracts, but it is OK to wait until after the Super 2 deadline. 

Where they are ranked doesn't matter. What matters is the development. When are they ready for the next challenge.

I've said multiple times, that I have no issue with waiting until the next "control" deadline comes. Right now it's the super 2 deadline. Waiting a few weeks isn't an issue. Waiting 4-5 months would be a detriment may be to their development.

The other factor is having them ready for when you want to contend. You can't expect them to be ready to produce for a team expecting to compete for a WS title with no experience. They need to have that learning time in the MLB. Now they may be able to play at the highest level, some can. However I think it's unrealistic to expect it.

Get them comfortable with the MLB this year and see how they do. Depending on their performance this year, they either spend some time in the minors at the begininng of next year or stay in the MLB and get ready to compete for a title in 2020.

IMHO this is the cautious, safest way to develop them.

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

Where they are ranked doesn't matter. What matters is the development. When are they ready for the next challenge.

I've said multiple times, that I have no issue with waiting until the next "control" deadline comes. Right now it's the super 2 deadline. Waiting a few weeks isn't an issue. Waiting 4-5 months would be a detriment may be to their development.

The other factor is having them ready for when you want to contend. You can't expect them to be ready to produce for a team expecting to compete for a WS title with no experience. They need to have that learning time in the MLB. Now they may be able to play at the highest level, some can. However I think it's unrealistic to expect it.

Get them comfortable with the MLB this year and see how they do. Depending on their performance this year, they either spend some time in the minors at the begininng of next year or stay in the MLB and get ready to compete for a title in 2020.

IMHO this is the cautious, safest way to develop them.

If you are calling them up in the middle of July, it's about 2 months. They still are playing in AAA until the beginning of September. Then let them go home and get ready for 2019 because by tax day, they will be in the major leagues, hopefully to stay, and the Sox have control through 2025. 

[turnin' two]

12 hours ago, raBBit said:

I think it's more likely that he has a deal with a memorabilia dealer. Plenty of players do. I know some guys have deals where they can't sign on the sweet spot. Carlos Quentin was like that.  

The pride of my memorabilia collection is a Ben Davis signature on the sweet spot.  He was confused as hell.  Haha.  I amuse myself.  

[Dick Allen]

40 minutes ago, Sarava said:

Holding them back a few extra weeks is a bit different than for 2/3 of a season.

I'm all for bringing them up when they are ready. But if that still has not come to Chicago by spring training next year, then yes, at that point I absolutely will be all for leaving them down for those extra couple of weeks.

It's not 2/3 of a season. Right now you are looking at the middle of July. What did Giolito learn last season that he took with him this year?  September games for cellar dwellars are meaningless as well. They are like spring training games. Let these guys master AAA until the beginning of September and see them in spring training, Next year, 2 weeks in AAA and there you go, an extra year of control for both.

Can anyone site examples of players that played 2 months too long in AAA and it basically ruined them?  I'm guessing not.

 

The White Sox get ripped for aggressive promotion. Now, hey the guy has a 4.02 ERA at Charlotte, he's clearly ready, and the other guy is in AA with 200 plate appearances above A ball. Get him up here. It's just the wrong thing to do.

 

You have to be realistic, and it has to make sense for the team. Not only are the Sox near the basement in ticket sales, their tickets are cheaper than most. I read on this board how if the Sox rebuilt, people would be attending more games, buying more tickets. Reality is no. And to think, one decent season and decades of attendance problems will be solved, I don't agree. They are going to need flexibility. They won't be able to handle a payroll that dances around the luxury tax area for quite some time.

 

They will still be here for 150+ games next year, and the reason people want them called up now is they are assuming they won't be ready, and are fearful that only 150 games at the major league level next year won't have them prepared for 2020. If that is true, you are saying they shouldn't be up here.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Dick Allen

[35thstreetswarm]

14 hours ago, soxfan49 said:

When he was on the broadcast earlier in the year, Kopech didn’t exactly give a great interview. Perhaps that rubbed Stone the wrong way.

Either way I had a few friends who went to Sox Fest that said Kopech is kind of a tool. Signed the least amount of autographs, wasn’t thrilled to be taking pictures, didn’t talk much with fans, even walked by a group of kids when it ended and blew them off. You could be right- he seems entitled but it doesn’t matter if he’s great. No one would have cared about Cutler’s attitude had he won a Super Bowl. See Aaron Rodgers, who’s got essentially the same personality as Cutler, bur he’s simply a better player with a ring

His involvement with the reality TV world has left me with a deep feeling of uneasiness about his makeup.  Maybe unfair, and I hope I'm wrong, but the douche factor is strong with this one.

[Sarava]

15 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

It's not 2/3 of a season. Right now you are looking at the middle of July. What did Giolito learn last season that he took with him this year?  September games for cellar dwellars are meaningless as well. They are like spring training games. Let these guys master AAA until the beginning of September and see them in spring training, Next year, 2 weeks in AAA and there you go, an extra year of control for both.

 Can anyone site examples of players that played 2 months too long in AAA and it basically ruined them?  I'm guessing not.

  

 The White Sox get ripped for aggressive promotion. Now, hey the guy has a 4.02 ERA at Charlotte, he's clearly ready, and the other guy is in AA with 200 plate appearances above A ball. Get him up here. It's just the wrong thing to do.

  

You have to be realistic, and it has to make sense for the team. Not only are the Sox near the basement in ticket sales, their tickets are cheaper than most. I read on this board how if the Sox rebuilt, people would be attending more games, buying more tickets. Reality is no. And to think, one decent season and decades of attendance problems will be solved, I don't agree. They are going to need flexibility. They won't be able to handle a payroll that dances around the luxury tax area for quite some time.

  

 They will still be here for 150+ games next year, and the reason people want them called up now is they are assuming they won't be ready, and are fearful that only 150 games at the major league level next year won't have them prepared for 2020. If that is true, you are saying they shouldn't be up here.

1) Giolito is not in the same category as these guys. He's a bit of a fading prospect. He's lost a lot of his stuff. Hopefully he can figure that put eventually, but in the meantime you bringing him up is only skewing this conversation.

2) No...and where are the examples of players being left in the minors an extra year over contractual control? Actually it might be happening with Vlad right now. So maybe I should ask, where are examples of that happening where it turned out to be in the best interests of the player's development?

3) I'm not saying to bring him up now. I'm just saying bring him up when he's ready. Though that one start that he got bombed skewed his numbers horribly, and I heard he might have been sick or coming out of being sick. He really has been great for the vast majority of his starts this season.

4) The Sox/State of Illinois made a horrible choice in building the new park on the south side, instead of in the western or northwestern burbs. They will always have attendance problems in that location, barring super teams.

5) I'm not saying to bring them up now. You keep putting words in our mouths. I'm saying to bring them up when they're ready. Whenever that is. And I don't have a specific timetable for when they should or must be ready. Nature will take it's course in that.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

If you are calling them up in the middle of July, it's about 2 months. They still are playing in AAA until the beginning of September. Then let them go home and get ready for 2019 because by tax day, they will be in the major leagues, hopefully to stay, and the Sox have control through 2025. 

In the middle of July would be closer to 3 months as most people would advocate keeping them down until the next deadline which is close to May (at least close) to save more time on their clock (which at that point I would agree with). 

I know you won't agree but I think that if they are ready that extra learning/break in time at the end of the season is more valuable than adding the extra year on the end of their time.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

It's not 2/3 of a season. Right now you are looking at the middle of July. What did Giolito learn last season that he took with him this year?  September games for cellar dwellars are meaningless as well. They are like spring training games. Let these guys master AAA until the beginning of September and see them in spring training, Next year, 2 weeks in AAA and there you go, an extra year of control for both.

Can anyone site examples of players that played 2 months too long in AAA and it basically ruined them?  I'm guessing not.

 

The White Sox get ripped for aggressive promotion. Now, hey the guy has a 4.02 ERA at Charlotte, he's clearly ready, and the other guy is in AA with 200 plate appearances above A ball. Get him up here. It's just the wrong thing to do.

 

You have to be realistic, and it has to make sense for the team. Not only are the Sox near the basement in ticket sales, their tickets are cheaper than most. I read on this board how if the Sox rebuilt, people would be attending more games, buying more tickets. Reality is no. And to think, one decent season and decades of attendance problems will be solved, I don't agree. They are going to need flexibility. They won't be able to handle a payroll that dances around the luxury tax area for quite some time.

 

They will still be here for 150+ games next year, and the reason people want them called up now is they are assuming they won't be ready, and are fearful that only 150 games at the major league level next year won't have them prepared for 2020. If that is true, you are saying they shouldn't be up here.

How do you know he wouldn't have struggled even more if he didn't have those experiences?

 

A guy having a 4.02 ERA at Charlotte. First of all if you basing a promotion based strictly on ERA, you are looking at the wrong things. It's more about how he handles the failures and set backs. Did most of that ERA come from the one really bad game he had and then he came back strong the next start? Ids the ERA more a product of the park being a hitters paradise than his performance. While the numbers are nice there is much more to look at when deciding when a player is ready.

It's not true that they shouldn't be up here even if they need more than next season to learn the MLB game. In fact the opposite is true. Do you think Mocada learned anything from being up with the MLB last year even though he struggled? He looks better now than even earlier this year. Some player will even need to be sent down again to work on the weaknesses that they learned they had while at the MLB.

They need to learn the MLB game and it may take some longer than others. If they are ready for the challenge of the next level of competition, you bring them to that level to see if they can handle it and what they may need to work on. It's all based on when the team thinks they are ready. If the team doesn't think they are ready they wait. However, if they think they are ready they shouldn't wait until next year just to save the service time.

[Dick Allen]

56 minutes ago, ptatc said:

How do you know he wouldn't have struggled even more if he didn't have those experiences?

 

A guy having a 4.02 ERA at Charlotte. First of all if you basing a promotion based strictly on ERA, you are looking at the wrong things. It's more about how he handles the failures and set backs. Did most of that ERA come from the one really bad game he had and then he came back strong the next start? Ids the ERA more a product of the park being a hitters paradise than his performance. While the numbers are nice there is much more to look at when deciding when a player is ready.

It's not true that they shouldn't be up here even if they need more than next season to learn the MLB game. In fact the opposite is true. Do you think Mocada learned anything from being up with the MLB last year even though he struggled? He looks better now than even earlier this year. Some player will even need to be sent down again to work on the weaknesses that they learned they had while at the MLB.

They need to learn the MLB game and it may take some longer than others. If they are ready for the challenge of the next level of competition, you bring them to that level to see if they can handle it and what they may need to work on. It's all based on when the team thinks they are ready. If the team doesn't think they are ready they wait. However, if they think they are ready they shouldn't wait until next year just to save the service time.

I am basing the promotion on not being able to learn anything more at the level he is at. A 4.02 ERA is indicative he hasn't mastered AAA. And Eloy hasn't even played AAA. They will still get 150 games in  2019 to get acclimated to the major leagues before the team may be legitimately winning. That's more than Moncada has now. More than Lopez, more than Giolito......

Edited May 22, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Jose Abreu]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

I am basing the promotion on not being able to learn anything more at the level he is at. A 4.02 ERA is indicative he hasn't mastered AAA. And Eloy hasn't even played AAA. They will still get 150 games to get acclimated to the major leagues before the team may be legitimately winning. 

I don't understand the fascination with a AAA, hitter's park pitcher's ERA in May. If you really care about it, his ERA would be 2.92 if it were not for that one disastrous start the other week. 

[Dick Allen]

11 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

I don't understand the fascination with a AAA, hitter's park pitcher's ERA in May. If you really care about it, his ERA would be 2.92 if it were not for that one disastrous start the other week. 

If his ERA was in the ones, I would say you have to call him up. Stone said he needs to learn to pitch. Why can't he do that at AAA? If the team was just bad and now god awful, I doubt many would be too opposed to the White Sox gaining an extra year out of these 2 by waiting until they are more ready. You want to be like the Cubs, well, Kris Bryant. You want to be like the Astros? Well, George Springer.  These guys were held out for contractual reasons. Why is it you need to see Kopech on a major league mound ASAP>  One of the advantages of the rebuild is you don't have to call these guys up the second you think they may be ready.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Dick Allen

[ptatc]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

I am basing the promotion on not being able to learn anything more at the level he is at. A 4.02 ERA is indicative he hasn't mastered AAA. And Eloy hasn't even played AAA. They will still get 150 games to get acclimated to the major leagues before the team may be legitimately winning. 

I would disagree that a 4.02 ERA means he has more to learn. As my last post stated a 4.02 ERA means little without context. His 1.19 WHIP, .200 BAA, 11.9 K/9, 4.2 BB/ 9 tell a slightly different story. He's doing very well there. If the outfield defense in the MLB is indicative of the outfield defense at AAA the AAA ERA may be meaningless (sorry had to take a shot at the MLB team).

He won't get 150 games he'll get around 25 starts based on when he would be promoted and other factors.

I agree that if Eloy isn't promoted to AAA within the next month or so that he will not have enough time there. Although with it being the hitters paradise, if he is an elite prospect he probably won't be there long. He would probably be better off staying at AA in a pitcher's park for an extended period of time and less time at AAA although he does need time there as well.

 

I also think you are discounting the fact that they may need to go back down after their promotion and the time between promotion and legitimately winning maybe longer than you think. I hope they pick it up quickly with no setbacks but I don't think you should count onit.

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I would disagree that a 4.02 ERA means he has more to learn. As my last post stated a 4.02 ERA means little without context. His 1.19 WHIP, .200 BAA, 11.9 K/9, 4.2 BB/ 9 tell a slightly different story. He's doing very well there. If the outfield defense in the MLB is indicative of the outfield defense at AAA the AAA ERA may be meaningless (sorry had to take a shot at the MLB team).

He won't get 150 games he'll get around 25 starts based on when he would be promoted and other factors.

I agree that if Eloy isn't promoted to AAA within the next month or so that he will not have enough time there. Although with it being the hitters paradise, if he is an elite prospect he probably won't be there long. He would probably be better off staying at AA in a pitcher's park for an extended period of time and less time at AAA although he does need time there as well.

 

I also think you are discounting the fact that they may need to go back down after their promotion and the time between promotion and legitimately winning maybe longer than you think. I hope they pick it up quickly with no setbacks but I don't think you should count onit.

If they had to go back down, that's even more proof they would have been called up too soon. 

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If his ERA was in the ones, I would say you have to call him up. Stone said he needs to learn to pitch. Why can't he do that at AAA? If the team was just bad and now god awful, I doubt many would be too opposed to the White Sox gaining an extra year out of these 2 by waiting until they are more ready. You want to be like the Cubs, well, Kris Bryant. You want to be like the Astros? Well, George Springer.  These guys were held out for contractual reasons. Why is it you need to see Kopech on a major league mound ASAP> 

Because his learning to get out MLB hitters is different than getting out AAA hitters. The hitters are better and may require a different approach. 

Again, it makes no difference how good the Sox are or are not. It's not about seeing him ASAP. It is about making sure he develops properly within what makes service time sense. They should wait for the next deadline in July.

[ptatc]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

If they had to go back down, that's even more proof they would have been called up too soon. 

I disagree. They can come up discover they need to approach MLB talent differently, then go back down and work on that aspect. This is how they learn.

Kopech is getting people out especially in K's at AAA. He has developed an idea how to get AAA hitters out. This may or may not work in the MLB. Learning is not linear. They need to learn how to fail and bounce back from it. If they don't have that challenge in the MiLB they may need to come to the MLB to find it.