ptatc Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Dick Allen said: All I am saying is if you think not calling them up this year and waiting for a couple of weeks next yerar means they will not be good players next season or 2020, they aren't nearly the prospects every thinks they are. I dint necessarily think this is true. The MLB is obviously the final step. No one has any idea how they will handle it mentally. I would err on the side of caution and give them the extra time, if they are currently ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Isn't the whole point of bringing up Jimenez and Kopech this season is fear they may suck for a while? Personally, if the product wasn't so unwatchable, I think a lot more people would see keeping these guys in the minors makes a lot more sense than calling them up this season. The excuse that they can't learn any more at the minor league level is laughable. Mike Trout mastered the major leagues, yet somehow, he continues to get better. Mike Trout is learning at the MLB level against MLB competition. He couldnt learn these things against minor league competition. This is what every player needs to do once they've progressed enough in the minors. If these two have hit that point, they should bring them up. There comes apoint when need to learn at the MLB just as you are saying Trout is. Look at how the Angels handled Trout. Brought him up at the end of a season. Played him most of the next season. Then the third season he played the full season. This is similar to the timeline I have been suggesting. And he continues to learn at the MLBlevel. He was not a finished product even with the cautious timeline. Edited May 23, 2018 by ptatc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 23, 2018 Author Share Posted May 23, 2018 9 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Isn't the whole point of bringing up Jimenez and Kopech this season is fear they may suck for a while? Personally, if the product wasn't so unwatchable, I think a lot more people would see keeping these guys in the minors makes a lot more sense than calling them up this season. The excuse that they can't learn any more at the minor league level is laughable. Mike Trout mastered the major leagues, yet somehow, he continues to get better. If these guys are half as good as we all hope, 4 or 5 years from now, people are going to wish the Sox kept them down for the extra year of control. Yeah, I don't really feel bad for the people that ranted about needing a complete meltdown removing all established talent and anything close to it, and then got exactly what they asked for, and are upset that the team is awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 My only worry about not challenging is developing bad habits that won't work above their level. But my main reason to want to promote them is because I want to see them play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
35thstreetswarm Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 35 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Isn't the whole point of bringing up Jimenez and Kopech this season is fear they may suck for a while? Personally, if the product wasn't so unwatchable, I think a lot more people would see keeping these guys in the minors makes a lot more sense than calling them up this season. The excuse that they can't learn any more at the minor league level is laughable. Mike Trout mastered the major leagues, yet somehow, he continues to get better. If these guys are half as good as we all hope, 4 or 5 years from now, people are going to wish the Sox kept them down for the extra year of control. There will be a learning curve, but they won’t suck until 2023 (unless something goes wrong). They should contribute quickly even if they continue to improve over multiple seasons. For the record, I dont think calling Eloy/Kopech up in July vs September vs May of 2019 will make much difference in their development or the timeline of the rebuild, so while I would be excited to see them sooner, I think maximizing control is the most important thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, bmags said: My only worry about not challenging is developing bad habits that won't work above their level. But my main reason to want to promote them is because I want to see them play. I get all that but I can't see where it should be an issue. Eloy has barely played above A ball. Kopech has less than 200 innings above A ball. I have season tickets. I would love to see them play. It would be far more enjoyable than what I have paid to see now. I used to dread going to James Shields starts. Now, it could be worse. But if I am going to sit through this crap, I want to do it right. Let's get the extra year of control. I don't think they will do it, but I wish they would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 You seem to equate "doing it right" with the extra year of control and nothing else, on field production be damned. That's not good logic. Staying down too long will hurt their development, extra year of control 8 years from now or not. "Doing it right" is going to mean making tough decisions not on rote arbitration timetables but on the entirety of the rebuild, including player development and readiness during the critical 2020-2023 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 16 hours ago, Dick Allen said: Beckhm and Jimenez have pretty similar stats above A ball, at least when Gordon was called up, in a similar amount of plate appearances. I have,read many times Beckham was rushed the Sox ruined him. Why is this different? They were trying to win in 2009. This post is a bit disingenuous. Beckham had a total of 196 PAs above A ball before being called up. Most of those were in AA where he had an .862 OPS, over 100 points shy of Eloy's current AA OPS of .968, with similar numbers for the 209 PAs he's had in AA. Beckham wasn't doing nearly the level of damage with the bat that Eloy is, and I doubt anyone would be calling for a promotion for him if his OPS was .862. Further, if he's not going to even possibly get the call until mid-July, that's another 120-150 PAs. If he still has a .950ish OPS after 330-360 PAs, what more would he have to prove in AA? At that point, AAA could be an option, but the pitching isn't much more of a challenge and the hitting environment in general is much better than in AA, and he's already destroying AA pitching. Seems like MLB would be the most logical place to give him his next challenge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 9 hours ago, 35thstreetswarm said: If I pretended (i) that Jose Abreu, Tim Anderson, Lucas Giolito, Zack Collins, Seby Zavala, Yolmer Sanchez, and Matt Davidson (and others) didn't exist; (ii) that there is no free agency or trade market; and (iii) that top prospects typically languish and suck at the big league level for two-three years before contributing, I would agree with this. But this timeline is totally divorced from reality and recent rebuild history. I've said this before, but by your timeline, the Cubs and Astros should be getting decent any day now... You have to take each rebuild in a vacuum. I'm looking at the Sox situation and only theirs, what Houston and the Cubs did has no bearing in what the Sox are doing. They had the fortune of having the majority of their talent come to the bigs in a short period of time. The Sox have them coming in waves which has its advantages and drawbacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisox05 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 7 hours ago, Dam8610 said: This post is a bit disingenuous. Beckham had a total of 196 PAs above A ball before being called up. Most of those were in AA where he had an .862 OPS, over 100 points shy of Eloy's current AA OPS of .968, with similar numbers for the 209 PAs he's had in AA. Beckham wasn't doing nearly the level of damage with the bat that Eloy is, and I doubt anyone would be calling for a promotion for him if his OPS was .862. Further, if he's not going to even possibly get the call until mid-July, that's another 120-150 PAs. If he still has a .950ish OPS after 330-360 PAs, what more would he have to prove in AA? At that point, AAA could be an option, but the pitching isn't much more of a challenge and the hitting environment in general is much better than in AA, and he's already destroying AA pitching. Seems like MLB would be the most logical place to give him his next challenge. From what I've read sox will want him in AAA at some point because of the pitching at that level. AAA is the bubble for pitchers going to the majors or pitchers that have pitched in the majors that can't get a spot at the major league roster or old major league pitchers that are filler cause they can't keep a spot on the major league roster. The Sox said that major league experience pitchers are going to pitch him differently cause they've been in the majors. They want him to see that kind of pitching before bringing up to the big leagues so he might have more of an idea on what pitchers will try to do to him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 3 hours ago, aeichhor said: From what I've read sox will want him in AAA at some point because of the pitching at that level. AAA is the bubble for pitchers going to the majors or pitchers that have pitched in the majors that can't get a spot at the major league roster or old major league pitchers that are filler cause they can't keep a spot on the major league roster. The Sox said that major league experience pitchers are going to pitch him differently cause they've been in the majors. They want him to see that kind of pitching before bringing up to the big leagues so he might have more of an idea on what pitchers will try to do to him Quotes from Jeff Passan: Yahoo baseball columnist Jeff Passan, interviewed Tuesday on the McNeil & Parkins show on WSCR-AM 670, predicted Jimenez would be up by the middle of June. “He’s ready,” Passan said. “He’s crushing (it) at Double A and yeah, you could put him at Triple A to face the junkballers and 4-A type pitchers, the borderline major-league guys. But he’s not going to learn anything at Triple A that he hasn’t already. We’re a couple weeks out from the Eloy era and it’s going to be pretty cool.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 15 hours ago, Jack Parkman said: The issue, like others have said, is that most of the Sox best prospects other than Kopech, Jimenez and Collins are in A+. Because of that, IMO, the window doesn't open until 2021 at the earliest, and that is with perfect development of players. 2022 or 2023 is more likely for the opening of the window. Unfortunately by then Moncada will be rapidly approaching FA. Do you want Kopech and Jimenez to be close to FA as well? They could seriously have only a 1-3 year window because the best players are so far ahead of the rest. Dunning is in AA. Hansen will be in AA when he gets back. I'd also be surprised if most of the org's A ball teams weren't promoted by the All-Star break at the latest. "Development isn't linear" happens both ways. Ronald Acuna hadn't played a game above low A prior to 2017. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 Seems Passan and the Sox staff have a difference of opinion (as they've already pushed the idea of the benefits that he'll get out of AAA baseball exposure). Imagine that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
35thstreetswarm Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, Jack Parkman said: You have to take each rebuild in a vacuum. I'm looking at the Sox situation and only theirs, what Houston and the Cubs did has no bearing in what the Sox are doing. They had the fortune of having the majority of their talent come to the bigs in a short period of time. The Sox have them coming in waves which has its advantages and drawbacks. The Cubs called up Soler and Baez in 2014. They called up Bryant, Russell, and Schwarber in 2015 and started competing. That’s five of their major prospects with several (Almora, Torres, Jimenez, Contreras, etc) still in the minors. Moncada, Lopez, and Giolito are already up. Jimenez and Kopech will be up in 2019 at the latest. That’s five of their major prospects with several still in the minors. Not sure why you’re projecting the Sox will need four years after their first main core is called up to compete—that really has no precedent. This doesn’t even count Anderson as a “major prospect,” or account for the fact that Collins and other prospects may be called up in ‘19 as well. That’s a lot of the core talent. You shouldn’t need to fill the entire roster with 40 hot prospects within a 6-month window to get your rebuild going. Edited May 24, 2018 by 35thstreetswarm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 8 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said: The Cubs called up Soler and Baez in 2014. They called up Bryant, Russell, and Schwarber in 2015 and started competing. That’s five of their major prospects with several (Almora, Torres, Jimenez, Alcantara, etc) still in the minors. Moncada, Lopez, and Giolito are already up. Jimenez and Kopech will be up in 2019 at the latest. That’s five of their major prospects with several still in the minors. Not sure why you’re projecting the Sox will need four years after their first main core is called up to compete—that really has no precedent. This doesn’t even count Anderson as a “major prospect,” or account for the fact that Collins and other prospects may be called up in ‘19 as well. That’s a lot of the core talent. You shouldn’t need to fill the entire roster with 40 hot prospects within a 6-month window to get your rebuild going. Yup, we aren’t waiting on a bunch of High A prospects to kick things into gear. Here is my extremely early prediction of the 2020 Opening roster: 1B: Abreu (assumes extension) 2B: Moncada SS: Anderson / Madrigal 3B: Machado / Arenado LF: Jimenez CF: L. Garcia / Anderson RF: Robert (perhaps two week delay) DH: Davidson / Cheap Free Agent CA: Collins IF: Sanchez OF: Cordell / L. Garcia UT: Delmonico / Palka / Cordell BC: Zavala / Castillo #1: Kopech #2: Rodon #3: Lopez #4: Hansen #5: Dunning/Giolito CL: Kimbrel / Britton SU: Burdi SU: Hamilton MR: Fry MR: Vieira/Fulmer MR: Bummer LR: Stephens That right there is a playoff caliber roster assuming enough development out of our top prospects. Plus we’d still have a ton of high upside guys in the upper minors to fill in gaps throughout the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 9 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: Yup, we aren’t waiting on a bunch of High A prospects to kick things into gear. Here is my extremely early prediction of the 2020 Opening roster: 1B: Abreu (assumes extension) 2B: Moncada SS: Anderson / Madrigal 3B: Machado / Arenado LF: Jimenez CF: L. Garcia / Anderson RF: Robert (perhaps two week delay) DH: Davidson / Cheap Free Agent CA: Collins IF: Sanchez OF: Cordell / L. Garcia UT: Delmonico / Palka / Cordell BC: Zavala / Castillo #1: Kopech #2: Rodon #3: Lopez #4: Hansen #5: Dunning/Giolito CL: Kimbrel / Britton SU: Burdi SU: Hamilton MR: Fry MR: Vieira/Fulmer MR: Bummer LR: Stephens That right there is a playoff caliber roster assuming enough development out of our top prospects. Plus we’d still have a ton of high upside guys in the upper minors to fill in gaps throughout the season. If Micker keeps hitting, you might be able to put him in RF and Robert in CF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisox05 Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 23 hours ago, ptatc said: Quotes from Jeff Passan: Yahoo baseball columnist Jeff Passan, interviewed Tuesday on the McNeil & Parkins show on WSCR-AM 670, predicted Jimenez would be up by the middle of June. “He’s ready,” Passan said. “He’s crushing (it) at Double A and yeah, you could put him at Triple A to face the junkballers and 4-A type pitchers, the borderline major-league guys. But he’s not going to learn anything at Triple A that he hasn’t already. We’re a couple weeks out from the Eloy era and it’s going to be pretty cool.” Still sox want him to see AAA "At the lower levels, it’s maybe more mechanical, approached based," Hahn said. "At the higher level, it's more about the interaction between the pitcher and the hitter and what the scouting report has on you ... how you're getting pitched and how you need to adjust to their adjustments. "The speed of the game, the way hitters react to the pitchers, the way pitchers adjust to the hitters, the scrutiny, the grind ... until the individual player has answered the questions we have for them, they're going to remain there." https://670thescore.radio.com/white-sox-prospect-eloy-jimenez-slugging-embracing-details-minor-leagues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black jack Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 7 hours ago, aeichhor said: Still sox want him to see AAA "At the lower levels, it’s maybe more mechanical, approached based," Hahn said. "At the higher level, it's more about the interaction between the pitcher and the hitter and what the scouting report has on you ... how you're getting pitched and how you need to adjust to their adjustments. "The speed of the game, the way hitters react to the pitchers, the way pitchers adjust to the hitters, the scrutiny, the grind ... until the individual player has answered the questions we have for them, they're going to remain there." https://670thescore.radio.com/white-sox-prospect-eloy-jimenez-slugging-embracing-details-minor-leagues Hahn speak for: "We're saving a year." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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