Eloy/Kopech could join Sox in mid July

[Chicago White Sox]

19 hours ago, elrockinMT said:

I would prefer opening day 2019. I would like to see them competing for ROY awards. This season is a loss anyway so let them mature in the minors 

Wow is all I can say to this...

[soxforlife05]

On 5/18/2018 at 2:08 PM, kwolf68 said:

 

Kopech numbers in AAA are very concerning. He is showing very suspect command, sports a high ERA and is showing the makings of a relief pitcher to me (great arm, poor command); albeit a high leverage relief pitcher. I was really hoping moving Sale, the Sox would get a top rotation starter in return. He is still 22 so tons of developmental time left, but it's hard not to have doubts. His arm is electric and he'll have a good to great MLB career I think, it just may not be in the rotation. I don't think the Sox should bring him up until he improves his command at AAA. Poor command in the ML will end up getting him toasted, no matter how fast he throws it. These days high 90s doesn't scare hitters, especially if you can't put the pitch where you want it. 

Poor command will get him lit up if he has no movement, sure. I don't know what would make you think he can't start. He has no issue going deep in games.

[Donaldo]

On 5/18/2018 at 4:22 PM, elrockinMT said:

I would prefer opening day 2019. I would like to see them competing for ROY awards. This season is a loss anyway so let them mature in the minors 

I agree 100%.  I thought they said they weren't going to rush prospects anymore?

[Sarava]

14 hours ago, Donaldo said:

I agree 100%.  I thought they said they weren't going to rush prospects anymore?

The old Sox that used to rush prospects would have brought both of them up last year when they were tearing up the minors. They have both shown they are pretty much ready, so bringing them up at any point going forward would not be rushing IMO.

[Dick Allen]

They shouldn’t be called up until a couple weeks into next season to get the extra year of control when the White Sox are supposed to be good. Giving up that year for both guys just to see them perform for a horrible team is worse than signing Moustakas for 1 year and giving up a second round pick.

All of you tankers who think these guys need to be called up ASAP, are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Leave them down, see you next year. They will get over it.

[flavum]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

They shouldn’t be called up until a couple weeks into next season to get the extra year of control when the White Sox are supposed to be good. Giving up that year for both guys just to see them perform for a horrible team is worse than signing Moustakas for 1 year and giving up a second round pick.

All of you tankers who think these guys need to be called up ASAP, are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Leave them down, see you next year. They will get over it.

Yep. If they bring these guys up in July just to throw a bone to the fans, they'll regret it in a couple years when the rebuild is still going. And the next CBA may get them to free agency after 5 years instead of 6. Kopech at 23 and Jimenez at 22 next May 1st...the Sox shouldn't feel bad keeping them down all season.

[GreenSox]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

They shouldn’t be called up until a couple weeks into next season to get the extra year of control when the White Sox are supposed to be good. Giving up that year for both guys just to see them perform for a horrible team is worse than signing Moustakas for 1 year and giving up a second round pick.

Agree

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

They shouldn’t be called up until a couple weeks into next season to get the extra year of control when the White Sox are supposed to be good. Giving up that year for both guys just to see them perform for a horrible team is worse than signing Moustakas for 1 year and giving up a second round pick.

All of you tankers who think these guys need to be called up ASAP, are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Leave them down, see you next year. They will get over it.

I think its more important to do whats best for their development. Would it be better for them to have some experience this year, learn a full year next year and be ready to compete in 2020? You are assuming that they will only need a partial year in 2019 to be ready to compete in 2020. 

I think its more important for kopech to be up this year. He is still building innings and will need to learn how to manage innings against MLB hitters. I can see him having similar issues to Lopez where he is going to need to learn how to get out MLB hitters (not MiLB hitters) without throwing 98 all the time. 

[Dick Allen]

8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I think its more important to do whats best for their development. Would it be better for them to have some experience this year, learn a full year next year and be ready to compete in 2020? You are assuming that they will only need a partial year in 2019 to be ready to compete in 2020. 

I think its more important for kopech to be up this year. He is still building innings and will need to learn how to manage innings against MLB hitters. I can see him having similar issues to Lopez where he is going to need to learn how to get out MLB hitters (not MiLB hitters) without throwing 98 all the time. 

2 weeks into next season, and they get called up. It should be plenty of time for them to be ready in 2020. If it isn’t, they aren’t ready to be called up this season anyway. Kopech still has things to work on. Eloy can spend a few months in AAA. It won’t kill them. Then they have an extra year of control for when these 2 should be at their peaks, if the team is rolling then, excellent. If they need to rebuild again, an extra year of control gets you better prospects.

 

There was a prospect a few years ago who put up this in the minors.

.325/.438/.661 with 43 homers. 22 years old 

He wasn’t called up to his horrible team, and actually went back to AAA the next season for a couple of weeks.

His team can afford huge contracts. His name is Kris Bryant, and I do not believe his growth was stunted in any way.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Greg Hibbard]

2024 vs. 2025 seems silly for us to think about - what did we know about 2018 in 2012? Nada. 

I don’t think the White Sox should be thinking about saving 2025 as a year of service, as much as what will make them most competitive in 2020-24. That’s their  realistic window with this group. 

Call either up whenever it makes sense after mid July to save the arbitration money but to hell with 2025 as a year of service.

All this losing is conditioning us to think 7 years down the line....

 

 

 

[ptatc]

24 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

2 weeks into next season, and they get called up. It should be plenty of time for them to be ready in 2020. If it isn’t, they aren’t ready to be called up this season anyway. Kopech still has things to work on. Eloy can spend a few months in AAA. It won’t kill them. Then they have an extra year of control for when these 2 should be at their peaks, if the team is rolling then, excellent. If they need to rebuild again, an extra year of control gets you better prospects.

 

There was a prospect a few years ago who put up this in the minors.

.325/.438/.661 with 43 homers. 22 years old 

He wasn’t called up to his horrible team, and actually went back to AAA the next season for a couple of weeks.

His team can afford huge contracts. His name is Kris Bryant, and I do not believe his growth was stunted in any way.

Will Kopech have this same learning curve in the MLB trying to get MLB hitters out? If he does, they should bring him up earlier so he can be ready by 2020.

Of course, it won't kill them. However, will they be ready by 2020 if they are only up for one year? You can guess that they will be. My preference would be to give them more learning time in the MLB to be sure they have the best opportunity to be ready instead of force feeding them the MLB talent and expecting them to be ready sooner.

There was a player who was brought up at 19 and had an OPS of 748 and the next year started his run of over 800 OPS every year at the age of 20.

 

His name was Ken Griffey Jr. So obviously Jimenez should have been brought up earlier. 

All players are different in their development. Learning is not linear. They need to be brought up when it is appropriate for their deveolopment with the contract timelines as well. If the team feels they are ready for the MLB challenge this year, they should wait until the best contract timeline this year. I think that's mid-july for the super 2 deadline.

[wrathofhahn]

49 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

They shouldn’t be called up until a couple weeks into next season to get the extra year of control when the White Sox are supposed to be good. Giving up that year for both guys just to see them perform for a horrible team is worse than signing Moustakas for 1 year and giving up a second round pick.

All of you tankers who think these guys need to be called up ASAP, are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Leave them down, see you next year. They will get over it.

Agreed not to mention they are both still young and have stuff to work on. Let them continue to grow in the minor leagues rather then have them start the clock on a meaningless year.

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Will Kopech have this same learning curve in the MLB trying to get MLB hitters out? If he does, they should bring him up earlier so he can be ready by 2020.

Of course, it won't kill them. However, will they be ready by 2020 if they are only up for one year? You can guess that they will be. My preference would be to give them more learning time in the MLB to be sure they have the best opportunity to be ready instead of force feeding them the MLB talent and expecting them to be ready sooner.

There was a player who was brought up at 19 and had an OPS of 748 and the next year started his run of over 800 OPS every year at the age of 20.

 

His name was Ken Griffey Jr. So obviously Jimenez should have been brought up earlier. 

All players are different in their development. Learning is not linear. They need to be brought up when it is appropriate for their deveolopment with the contract timelines as well. If the team feels they are ready for the MLB challenge this year, they should wait until the best contract timeline this year. I think that's mid-july for the super 2 deadline.

If you are calling them up in mid July, exactly what are they going to gain from playing with a cellar dweller? The games are meaningless, it’s like spring training, especially September. You are willing to give up one peak year each of Kopech and Jimenez for less than 3 months of meaningless games? 

And using your example, Griffey showed he didn’t need a year and a half in the major leagues to contribute.

[bmags]

My head agrees with DA, but on the other hand who know what 7 years from now looks like let’s #callhimup

[ptatc]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If you are calling them up in mid July, exactly what are they going to gain from playing with a cellar dweller? The games are meaningless, it’s like spring training, especially September. You are willing to give up one peak year each of Kopech and Jimenez for less than 3 months of meaningless games? 

And using your example, Griffey showed he didn’t need a year and a half in the major leagues to contribute.

Their development has nothing to do with being on a cellar dweller. It has everything to do with giving them the best path to be the best player they can be. The promotion has nothing to do with the current Sox team. It would be to have kopech learn how to get out mlb hitters and for jimenenez to hit mlb pitchers.

While the griffey example is a stretch. Your example assumes Jimenez will follow the path of Bryant. There is a good possibility that in 2019 he will fail and need to go back the the minors. This may preclude him being ready by 2020. See Rizzo for this. If he is ready now. Bring him up now. Let him fail now and learn for next year. Just because he fails doesn't mean he isn't ready for the challenge.

[Dick Allen]

I just think these guys are supposedly elite. The 150 games on the roster in 2019 should be enough that in 2020 they are big pieces of a contender. If it wasn’t enough, and they still needed another 50 games, I would rather sacrifice that in 2020 than sacrifice an entire season at the end of their control when they should be at their peaks 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Sarava]

1 hour ago, ptatc said:

Their development has nothing to do with being on a cellar dweller. It has everything to do with giving them the best path to be the best player they can be. The promotion has nothing to do with the current Sox team. It would be to have kopech learn how to get out mlb hitters and for jimenenez to hit mlb pitchers.

While the griffey example is a stretch. Your example assumes Jimenez will follow the path of Bryant. There is a good possibility that in 2019 he will fail and need to go back the the minors. This may preclude him being ready by 2020. See Rizzo for this. If he is ready now. Bring him up now. Let him fail now and learn for next year. Just because he fails doesn't mean he isn't ready for the challenge.

Well said. Dick Allen is ignoring their development and seems to be 100% focused on contractual control of these guys. I don't think that's how the Sox should approach this.

[ptatc]

11 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I just think these guys are supposedly elite. The 150 games on the roster in 2019 should be enough that in 2020 they are big pieces of a contender. If it wasn’t enough, and they still needed another 50 games, I would rather sacrifice that in 2020 than sacrifice an entire season at the end of their control when they should be at their peaks 

They are supposed to be but that may be eventually. They still need to learn at the MLB and no one knows how long that will take. I would sacrifice the year of control to let them have the best chance to succeed.

 

there's is no way of knowing which way is correct. There probably isn't a correct way. I do however think this gives them the best chance. The coaches and people involved with them on a daily basis know more about their mental and emotionally maturity and should have the best idea about them. This isn't a case where the sox are competing and they err on the side of rushing them. 

Edited May 20, 2018 by ptatc

[Sarava]

Speaking of rushed. The Nationals promoted Juan Soto from AA today. He is 19 still.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Sarava

[Dick Allen]

On 5/19/2018 at 12:13 AM, raBBit said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Sarava said:

Well said. Dick Allen is ignoring their development and seems to be 100% focused on contractual control of these guys. I don't think that's how the Sox should approach this.

I am not ignoring their development at all. Kopech. Has a 4.02 ERA in AAA, and Jimenez has 201 plate appearances above A ball. If the plan is mid July, an extra month and a half this year and 2 weeks next year shouldn't hurt development, while improving the odds of sustainable winning.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Dick Allen

[ptatc]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

 

I am not ignoring their development at all. Kopech. Has a 4.02 ERA in AS A, and Jimenez has 201 plate appearances above A ball. If the plan is mid July, an extra month and a half this year and 2 weeks next year shouldn't hurt development, while improving the odds of sustainable winning.

As opposed to looking at it from what won't hurt their development, I prefer to look at what is best for their development. The Sox future success will be in large part, determined by the development of these two players. I would prefer to do what's best for them. The extra month and a half learning in the MLB may be what they need to be successful.

I don't think you improve the odds for sustainable winning if you don't focus on the development of the players.

[Dick Allen]

13 minutes ago, ptatc said:

As opposed to looking at it from what won't hurt their development, I prefer to look at what is best for their development. The Sox future success will be in large part, determined by the development of these two players. I would prefer to do what's best for them. The extra month and a half learning in the MLB may be what they need to be successful.

I don't think you improve the odds for sustainable winning if you don't focus on the development of the players.

Maybe it is what  is best. In 2007 the White Sox shut John Danks down after August and 135 ip. 2008 was perhaps his best seasn including a gem in game 163.

 

I would agree and say there is a point where you have to call them up,  but Kopech hasn't mastered AAA and Eloy has very little experience above A ball.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Dick Allen

[ptatc]

56 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Maybe it is what  is best. In 2007 the White Sox shut John Danks down after August and 135 ip. 2008 was perhaps his best seasn including a gem in game 163.

 

I would agree and say there is a point where you have to call them up,  but Kopech hasn't mastered AAA and Eloy has very little experience above A ball.

It could be whats best. This is why I would trust the coaches that are working with him to judge whats best. However I would think that you challenge them when they are ready to be challenged, not wait an extra half year of experience just to add another year of control at the end.

if they are the elite prospects as you said earlier jimenez shouldnt need much time in a hitters paradise in AAA and kopechs numbers are somewhat skewed by pitching in hitters paradise.

All of this will change based on their performances as the season progresses.

[wrathofhahn]

35 minutes ago, ptatc said:

It could be whats best. This is why I would trust the coaches that are working with him to judge whats best. However I would think that you challenge them when they are ready to be challenged, not wait an extra half year of experience just to add another year of control at the end.

if they are the elite prospects as you said earlier jimenez shouldnt need much time in a hitters paradise in AAA and kopechs numbers are somewhat skewed by pitching in hitters paradise.

All of this will change based on their performances as the season progresses.

I don't think GM's should or do look at the same way you do. GM's look at it from the perspective they have 7 years of control and they try to maximize that control in the best way for their club.

If we were contenders and wanted to promote Kopech and Eloy at an advanced rate then I would have no problem with that look at the nationals are doing with Soto as an example.

The problem lies when you burn through your best players service time on clubs that have no chance to win.

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, wrathofhahn said:

I don't think GM's should or do look at the same way you do. GM's look at it from the perspective they have 7 years of control and they try to maximize that control in the best way for their club.

If we were contenders and wanted to promote Kopech and Eloy at an advanced rate then I would have no problem with that look at the nationals are doing with Soto as an example.

The problem lies when you burn through your best players service time on clubs that have no chance to win.

I would think that they are doing thier clubs a great disservice then. If you truly put tge contract over the development of the player, you will cost your team a number of good players.

Im not saying they should ignore the contract status. If they have determined that the players are ready now, there is nothing wrong with waiting until the next contract mikestone. I believe that is jjn July. However if they wait until next April evrnthough they are ready now, they are doing the team a disservice.

I think at least some GMs agree. Look at Soto in Washington and Albies in Atlanta played almost half a season last year. They didnt wait until the next year.