Eloy/Kopech could join Sox in mid July

[Sarava]

46 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

I don't think GM's should or do look at the same way you do. GM's look at it from the perspective they have 7 years of control and they try to maximize that control in the best way for their club.

If we were contenders and wanted to promote Kopech and Eloy at an advanced rate then I would have no problem with that look at the nationals are doing with Soto as an example.

The problem lies when you burn through your best players service time on clubs that have no chance to win.

That's where signing them to one of them Eaton/Sale/Quintana type contracts comes in. Or you hope at least. 

[wrathofhahn]

1 hour ago, ptatc said:

I would think that they are doing thier clubs a great disservice then. If you truly put tge contract over the development of the player, you will cost your team a number of good players.

Im not saying they should ignore the contract status. If they have determined that the players are ready now, there is nothing wrong with waiting until the next contract mikestone. I believe that is jjn July. However if they wait until next April evrnthough they are ready now, they are doing the team a disservice.

I think at least some GMs agree. Look at Soto in Washington and Albies in Atlanta played almost half a season last year. They didnt wait until the next year. 

I disagree with you about development from what I've seen watching baseball and just been told by coaches via interviews is there isn't much development that happens in the MLB during the season. I remember the old bobby cox saying of something to the effect the major leagues is for winning games, the minor league is for developing players.

The basis of that is coaches are coming up with game plans shifts lineups doing media obligations they don't have the time to work on young players like coaches in the minor league during the season. Thats why when a player struggles like Fulmer even in a new era of clubs rebuilding he got sent down rather then figuring it out here.

 

[ptatc]

45 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

I disagree with you about development from what I've seen watching baseball and just been told by coaches via interviews is there isn't much development that happens in the MLB during the season. I remember the old bobby cox saying of something to the effect the major leagues is for winning games, the minor league is for developing players.

The basis of that is coaches are coming up with game plans shifts lineups doing media obligations they don't have the time to work on young players like coaches in the minor league during the season. Thats why when a player struggles like Fulmer even in a new era of clubs rebuilding he got sent down rather then figuring it out here.

 

I disagree that there is no development in the MLB. The goals is to win games, of course. However, young players need to learn how to hit MLB pitching as it is better than the minors and young pitchers need to learn to get out MLB hitters. There was a learning point in the Sox win today with Lopez staying out there for that last hitter.

I have only been in one MLB team's dugout and it was a veteran team and the players and coaches were constantly discussing these different things with young players. this is especially true in today's game where players are coming up younger. Chris Sale talked about how much he learned from Buerhle. They can't get that learning in the minors.

[bmags]

One reason to call them up not mentioned, and I’m not advocating just saying it may need to be a consideration, is showing off moncada, kopech, Jimenez, etc may help with this FA crop if they are noticeably ascending vs , you know, losing 8 out of 10 games consistently

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

One reason to call them up not mentioned, and I’m not advocating just saying it may need to be a consideration, is showing off moncada, kopech, Jimenez, etc may help with this FA crop if they are noticeably ascending vs , you know, losing 8 out of 10 games consistently

100%.  And come 2020 this team will have four years left of Moncada.  That’s when we have to be serious about competing for championships.  I just don’t get the argument for worrying more about 2025 (when Yoan may or may not be here) than 2020.  Jimenez & Kopech are two of the most important pieces of the rebuild and I’d rather give them 1 1/2 years of development time before the 2020 season than just assume they’ll figure everything in just one year at the major league level.

[caulfield12]

They're not going to say it, but not only will Jimenez and Kopech looking like they can hold their own be MORE attractive to potential free agents, it will

2) Help convince fans the worst is over and to jump back on board buying tickets for 2019 instead of waiting until 2020/21

3) Improve tv and radio ratings, which will be nothing but beneficial for the organization (of course, the other theory is that if they TOTALLY bottom out in ratings in 2018, then any improvement in 2019 and especially 2020 will be statistically significant) as they look to the huge (for this franchise) broadcasting rights deal they'll be negotiating in 2019

Not to mention that the (rest of the) AL Central looks eminently vulnerable.

One caveat, of course, is that if BOTH of those projected star players struggle (or get seriously injured), it will be a huge setback.  Obviously, injuries can happen at any level and are perhaps slightly more likely in the minors due the inferior playing surfaces, but that's more true of A-level fields and below, compared to AA and AAA.

Finally, anytime you have a top prospect (especially Top 20-25 in MILB), if you want to hold them in the minors because their projected trade value is MORE likely to take a hit if they have a setback at the next level...that would be ONE thing, but we're not in a position to trade either of those guys.  They pretty much have to succeed with the Sox for this rebuild to work, so we're not going to be "hiding" or protecting them by keeping them in the minors.

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Bringing these guys up for ticket selling sake isn't going to work. I was talking to a guy Saturday night who has premium season tickets and has had them for 50 years. This is it for him. He's bailing after this season. Can't take it anymore. I told him things are going to change, but this year's model spooked him. It is one of the dangers. The people paying for tickets that you buy on Stubhub dirt cheap don't like throwing their money away. Plus the new tax cuts take away the write off bringing clients to a game brings. The White Sox are going to have to do something for these people to make them stay.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Dick Allen

[RockRaines]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Bringing these guys up for ticket selling sake isn't going to work. I was talking to a guy Saturday night who has premium season tickets and has had them for 50 years. This is it for him. He's bailing after this season. Can't take it anymore. I told him things are going to change, but this year's model spooked him. It is one of the dangers. The people paying for tickets that you buy on Stubhub dirt cheap don't like throwing their money away. Plus the new tax cuts take away the write off bringing clients to a game brings. The White Sox are going to have to do something for these people to make them stay.

Win games and people will come.  Win games consistently over several seasons and you will be selling tickets like crazy.   I think having a cost controlled core is pretty paramount to that sustained success.

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Bringing these guys up for ticket selling sake isn't going to work. I was talking to a guy Saturday night who has premium season tickets and has had them for 50 years. This is it for him. He's bailing after this season. Can't take it anymore. I told him things are going to change, but this year's model spooked him. It is one of the dangers. The people paying for tickets that you buy on Stubhub dirt cheap don't like throwing their money away. Plus the new tax cuts take away the write off bringing clients to a game brings. The White Sox are going to have to do something for these people to make them stay.

I agree. Their development should drive any promotion. Any other reason should not be considered, especially. Im a 15 year partial season ticket holder. Ill still be around.

[Dick Allen]

This is probably behind a pay wall, but Steve Stone commenting on these 2. 

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-white-sox-steve-stone-prospects-20180520-story.html

[harkness99]

Jiminez maybe can call up... Kopech not seeing it at all yet.

[Dick Allen]

12 minutes ago, harkness99 said:

Jiminez maybe can call up... Kopech not seeing it at all yet.

Stone didn't give what I would call a ringing endorsement of Kopech, that's for sure.

He does seem enamored with Eloy.

[chitownsportsfan]

Kopech is approaching 200 innings at the AA/AAA level combined and has like a FIP below 3.  This is almost all before his 22rd birthday.  I'm sure how much he has to learn down there.  Yes his walk rate is elevated, but what do you expect from a 22 year old in AAA?

I'd say let him try and go 6-7 innings a few more starts and bring him up once the Super 2 deadline safely passes in a couple weeks.  

As for Stone, I think Kopech just rubs him the wrong way.  Kopech isn't everyone's cup of tea.  He's got that Baker Mayfield type vibe mixed with a little more Hollywood.  Personally I love it.  

Edited May 21, 2018 by chitownsportsfan

[Soxbadger]

Kopech is the easier call to keep down. Last year he pitched 134 innings. If he stays in AAA and pitches the entire season, that is roughly 30 starts. That puts him on pace for about 150 or so ip. I cant really see the Sox pushing him that much past 160 this year, so it doesnt make a lot of sense to call him up for 1-2 starts to burn an entire year of control.

That being said, at this point everyone is just rehashing the same arguments over and over. 

[Wanne]

5 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

This is probably behind a pay wall, but Steve Stone commenting on these 2. 

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-white-sox-steve-stone-prospects-20180520-story.html

good stuff...thanks DA.

[Eminor3rd]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Kopech is approaching 200 innings at the AA/AAA level combined and has like a FIP below 3.  This is almost all before his 22rd birthday.  I'm sure how much he has to learn down there.  Yes his walk rate is elevated, but what do you expect from a 22 year old in AAA?

I'd say let him try and go 6-7 innings a few more starts and bring him up once the Super 2 deadline safely passes in a couple weeks.  

As for Stone, I think Kopech just rubs him the wrong way.  Kopech isn't everyone's cup of tea.  He's got that Baker Mayfield type vibe mixed with a little more Hollywood.  Personally I love it.  

Why though? If he needs to work on his control, why not do that at the AAA level?

With a hitter, I think it's a bit different. Sometimes the optimal approach against mediocre talent isn't the optimal approach against top talent, and you need to learn to use your tools against the best. But for Kopech, if it's a matter of consistency, or mechanics, or commanding a pitch, I can;t think of any reason that it doesn't make more sense to do that in the minors -- where there's less pressure, the games don't matter, and the service clock doesn't run.

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, Soxbadger said:

Kopech is the easier call to keep down. Last year he pitched 134 innings. If he stays in AAA and pitches the entire season, that is roughly 30 starts. That puts him on pace for about 150 or so ip. I cant really see the Sox pushing him that much past 160 this year, so it doesnt make a lot of sense to call him up for 1-2 starts to burn an entire year of control.

That being said, at this point everyone is just rehashing the same arguments over and over. 

160-170 should be about his limit this year. 

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Kopech is approaching 200 innings at the AA/AAA level combined and has like a FIP below 3.  This is almost all before his 22rd birthday.  I'm sure how much he has to learn down there.  Yes his walk rate is elevated, but what do you expect from a 22 year old in AAA?

I'd say let him try and go 6-7 innings a few more starts and bring him up once the Super 2 deadline safely passes in a couple weeks.  

As for Stone, I think Kopech just rubs him the wrong way.  Kopech isn't everyone's cup of tea.  He's got that Baker Mayfield type vibe mixed with a little more Hollywood.  Personally I love it.  

Stone is right about him. History is full of guys who came to the MLB as throwers and eventually learned to become pitchers.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

Why though? If he needs to work on his control, why not do that at the AAA level?

With a hitter, I think it's a bit different. Sometimes the optimal approach against mediocre talent isn't the optimal approach against top talent, and you need to learn to use your tools against the best. But for Kopech, if it's a matter of consistency, or mechanics, or commanding a pitch, I can;t think of any reason that it doesn't make more sense to do that in the minors -- where there's less pressure, the games don't matter, and the service clock doesn't run.

I still think it is beneficial to learn how to get hitters out at the MLB level. He obviously can get AAA hitters out with his current approach. That approach won't change until he is challenged. At the beginning of the year, RH said he was going to the minors to work on his self control on the mound and to work on the change up. Kopech has already stated he thinks the change up has improved. Will he stagnate at AAA or will he find more challenges?

He may be like rodon where his style just lends itself to control issues, although Rodons is mechanics based and Kopech's is philosophy based.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, ptatc said:

I still think it is beneficial to learn how to get hitters out at the MLB level. He obviously can get AAA hitters out with his current approach. That approach won't change until he is challenged. At the beginning of the year, RH said he was going to the minors to work on his self control on the mound and to work on the change up. Kopech has already stated he thinks the change up has improved. Will he stagnate at AAA or will he find more challenges?

He may be like rodon where his style just lends itself to control issues, although Rodons is mechanics based and Kopech's is philosophy based.

Excellent post.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

1 hour ago, ptatc said:

I still think it is beneficial to learn how to get hitters out at the MLB level. He obviously can get AAA hitters out with his current approach. That approach won't change until he is challenged. At the beginning of the year, RH said he was going to the minors to work on his self control on the mound and to work on the change up. Kopech has already stated he thinks the change up has improved. Will he stagnate at AAA or will he find more challenges?

He may be like rodon where his style just lends itself to control issues, although Rodons is mechanics based and Kopech's is philosophy based.

Good post. I wonder if Giolito or Fulmer's terrible starts have done anything to the Sox brass regarding Kopech? Obviously he still needs to improve upon some things still, so it doesn't hurt to keep him down a little longer, but I wonder if the Sox would have pushed him a little more aggressively if say one of Giolito or Fulmer were pitching closer to an 4.25 ERA. Maybe it's easier for an organization to develop players across multiple platforms as opposed to putting all that pressure on one particular staff?

[Soxfest]

I would let MK pitch some of the DH games Sox got then send him down afterwards.............Sept call MK and EJ up not before long term.

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

Good post. I wonder if Giolito or Fulmer's terrible starts have done anything to the Sox brass regarding Kopech? Obviously he still needs to improve upon some things still, so it doesn't hurt to keep him down a little longer, but I wonder if the Sox would have pushed him a little more aggressively if say one of Giolito or Fulmer were pitching closer to an 4.25 ERA. Maybe it's easier for an organization to develop players across multiple platforms as opposed to putting all that pressure on one particular staff?

Its possible. However there is nothing wrong with Fulmer coming learning and going back down to work on specific things.

[soxfan49]

12 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Stone didn't give what I would call a ringing endorsement of Kopech, that's for sure.

He does seem enamored with Eloy.

When he was on the broadcast earlier in the year, Kopech didn’t exactly give a great interview. Perhaps that rubbed Stone the wrong way.

Either way I had a few friends who went to Sox Fest that said Kopech is kind of a tool. Signed the least amount of autographs, wasn’t thrilled to be taking pictures, didn’t talk much with fans, even walked by a group of kids when it ended and blew them off. You could be right- he seems entitled but it doesn’t matter if he’s great. No one would have cared about Cutler’s attitude had he won a Super Bowl. See Aaron Rodgers, who’s got essentially the same personality as Cutler, bur he’s simply a better player with a ring

Edited May 22, 2018 by soxfan49

[Chicago White Sox]

4 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

When he was on the broadcast earlier in the year, Kopech didn’t exactly give a great interview. Perhaps that rubbed Stone the wrong way.

Either way I had a few friends who went to Sox Fest that said Kopech is kind of a tool. Signed the least amount of autographs, wasn’t thrilled to be taking pictures, didn’t talk much with fans, even walked by a group of kids when it ended and blew them off. You could be right- he seems entitled but it doesn’t matter if he’s great. No one would have cared about Cutler’s attitude had he won a Super Bowl. See Aaron Rodgers, who’s got essentially the same personality as Cutler, bur he’s simply a better player with a ring

He seemed perfectly nice to me at SoxFest, but he refused to sign just his name which kind of sucked.