caulfield12 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 How can he get 25 more starts if we’re looking at an innings pitched limit in the 160-175 range for this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 51 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: If his ERA was in the ones, I would say you have to call him up. Stone said he needs to learn to pitch. Why can't he do that at AAA? If the team was just bad and now god awful, I doubt many would be too opposed to the White Sox gaining an extra year out of these 2 by waiting until they are more ready. You want to be like the Cubs, well, Kris Bryant. You want to be like the Astros? Well, George Springer. These guys were held out for contractual reasons. Why is it you need to see Kopech on a major league mound ASAP> One of the advantages of the rebuild is you don't have to call these guys up the second you think they may be ready. The problem is our Kris Bryant is already up and burning service time. Our goal should be to maximize our chances to win during his service time window. If getting Kopech & Jimenez an extra 3+ months of major league development time gives us a better chance of winning in 2020 then I’m all for it. IMO the focus should be on the 2020 to 2023 seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: How can he get 25 more starts if we’re looking at an innings pitched limit in the 160-175 range for this year? This was in reference to how many he would get next year for learning purposes. Unless I read the comment wrong then disregard this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 59 minutes ago, ptatc said: I disagree. They can come up discover they need to approach MLB talent differently, then go back down and work on that aspect. This is how they learn. Kopech is getting people out especially in K's at AAA. He has developed an idea how to get AAA hitters out. This may or may not work in the MLB. Learning is not linear. They need to learn how to fail and bounce back from it. If they don't have that challenge in the MiLB they may need to come to the MLB to find it. His walk rate is high. He needs to work on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 9 minutes ago, ptatc said: This was in reference to how many he would get next year for learning purposes. Unless I read the comment wrong then disregard this. He is averaging 5 innings a start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: The problem is our Kris Bryant is already up and burning service time. Our goal should be to maximize our chances to win during his service time window. If getting Kopech & Jimenez an extra 3+ months of major league development time gives us a better chance of winning in 2020 then I’m all for it. IMO the focus should be on the 2020 to 2023 seasons. There just isn't evidence that calling them up now or the middle of July vs next April makes them better in 2020. It isn't like they would be doing nothing. If that is the argument, you must be expecting them to suck for a while. Edited May 22, 2018 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 With Kopech, pitch count is much more relevant than total innings pitched at this point.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 I hope the Sox don't bring up Jimenez until they feel his defense is developed enough to play an adequate major league outfield. Everyone always focuses solely on his hitting when determining when he is ready for a call up. I hope the Sox are also concerned with developing his defense and other baseball skills as well. This franchise never seems to put enough value on defense. Unless of course they plan on Eloy being a full time DH, I hope he doesn't come up too soon and be an embarassment in the outfield. I'm tired of watching that kind of White Sox baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Beckhm and Jimenez have pretty similar stats above A ball, at least when Gordon was called up, in a similar amount of plate appearances. I have,read many times Beckham was rushed the Sox ruined him. Why is this different? They were trying to win in 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 31 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: There just isn't evidence that calling them up now or the middle of July vs next April makes them better in 2020. It isn't like they would be doing nothing. If that is the argument, you must be expecting them to suck for a while. I’m expecting uncertainty as you just never know how quickly young players will develop in the pros. And I’d really like minimize the amount of growing pains in 2020. Our next wave of talent should hit that season and I’d like a strong foundation in place that I know can offset the new guys’ growing pains. Look, if our development people are confident that one year is all it will take to get Kopech & Jimenez ready at the major league then I’m all for that. I’m just not sure I think our organization feels that way. I do feel strongly that if you don’t call them up by June/July, then you might as well keep them down the rest of the season and should wait until late April of 2019. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 29 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I’m expecting uncertainty as you just never know how quickly young players will develop in the pros. And I’d really like minimize the amount of growing pains in 2020. Our next wave of talent should hit that season and I’d like a strong foundation in place that I know can offset the new guys’ growing pains. Look, if our development people are confident that one year is all it will take to get Kopech & Jimenez ready at the major league then I’m all for that. I’m just not sure I think our organization feels that way. I do feel strongly that if you don’t call them up by June/July, then you might as well keep them down the rest of the season and should wait until late April of 2019. These are your best guys. If you don’t think they will be ready in 2020 unless they are called up this season, you have a problem, as using the same logic, your lesser talented and lesser advanced prospects won’t be ready for 2020 either, so now you are talking 2021. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 22, 2018 Author Share Posted May 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: These are your best guys. If you don’t think they will be ready in 2020 unless they are called up this season, you have a problem, as using the same logic, your lesser talented and lesser advanced prospects won’t be ready for 2020 either, so now you are talking 2021. It isn't crazy to understand that history tells us baseball is a tough game and there is nothing tougher than the majors. Some guys take time, even yearS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 30 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: These are your best guys. If you don’t think they will be ready in 2020 unless they are called up this season, you have a problem, as using the same logic, your lesser talented and lesser advanced prospects won’t be ready for 2020 either, so now you are talking 2021. They may not, which is why having a core anchored by Moncada, Jimenez, Anderson, Kopech, Rodon, Lopez, Giolito, and hopefully Abreu and some big time free agents is critical. We can afford growing pains at a couple spots if most of the big pieces are in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 24 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: It isn't crazy to understand that history tells us baseball is a tough game and there is nothing tougher than the majors. Some guys take time, even yearS. Which is fine. Then 2020 isn’t realistic as a contending year. I just don’t see how the last couple months of this year would be the difference between them being great in 2020 or mediocre, if their development is going to take multiple years, to me it makes a lot more sense to maximize their conteol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Just now, Dick Allen said: Which is fine. Then 2020 isn’t realistic as a contending year. I just don’t see how the last couple months of this year would be the difference between them being great in 2020 or mediocre, if their development is going to take multiple years, to me it makes a lot more sense to maximize their conteol. Three months = half a season. Quite frankly, that’s a substantial amount of development time IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 22, 2018 Author Share Posted May 22, 2018 Just now, Chicago White Sox said: Three months = half a season. Quite frankly, that’s a substantial amount of development time IMO. 3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Which is fine. Then 2020 isn’t realistic as a contending year. I just don’t see how the last couple months of this year would be the difference between them being great in 2020 or mediocre, if their development is going to take multiple years, to me it makes a lot more sense to maximize their conteol. Staking everything on all of the kids being ready in a narrow window is a fools errand. Trying to get them ready in that window while restricting the amount of time to learn is even worse. 3 months makes a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Staking everything on all of the kids being ready in a narrow window is a fools errand. Trying to get them ready in that window while restricting the amount of time to learn is even worse. 3 months makes a difference. You seem to assume that these 2 will not be doing anything but sitting around. They would be playing professional baseball in AAA. Eloy Jimenez has barely 200 plate appearances above A ball. Check out Kopech’s walk rate and tell me again why he couldn’t work on that in Charlotte. I am am not counting on all these guys working out. But if you expect to contend in 2020 one or two other than Kopech and Jimenez better be able to contribute. If the minor leagues are such a waste for development, the Sox are in a world of trouble, Edited May 22, 2018 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Dick Allen said: You seem to assume that these 2 will not be doing anything but sitting around. They would be playing professional baseball in AAA. Eloy Jimenez has barely 200 plate appearances above A ball. Check out Kopech’s walk rate and tell me again why he couldn’t work on that in Charlotte. I am am not counting on all these guys working out. But if you expect to contend in 2020 one or two other than Kopech and Jimenez better be able to contribute. If the minor leagues are such a waste for development, the Sox are in a world of trouble, Now you are taking the discussion to an absurd extreme. No one ever said nor implied that the minors are a waste of time. They are all necessary steps in the development of players. There just becomes a time when the next challenge needs to be placed upon the player. I believe in one of my posts I said that Jimenez should spend time at AAA. I believe I am the one who posted his walk rate while you only wanted to discuss his ERA. The walk rate is high on the season but has been better recently and he is showing good progress. By this one criteria judging method, you must think that Mocada should still be in the minors due to his high K rate. Somethings are just not going tochange for a player's style. I have a feeling the way Kopech likes to throw all out, he will always walk batters. That won't change against AAA hitters because overall he isn't having much difficulty with them. There comes a time when thy need to be challenged and for these two it might be this year. If their progress dictates they stay down they should. However, that should be determined by development not strictly contractual status with the reason stated ad nauseam before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) The issue, like others have said, is that most of the Sox best prospects other than Kopech, Jimenez and Collins are in A+. Because of that, IMO, the window doesn't open until 2021 at the earliest, and that is with perfect development of players. 2022 or 2023 is more likely for the opening of the window. Unfortunately by then Moncada will be rapidly approaching FA. Do you want Kopech and Jimenez to be close to FA as well? They could seriously have only a 1-3 year window because the best players are so far ahead of the rest. Edited May 23, 2018 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 They’re not going anywhere in 2021 without 3-4 key free agent additions the next two offseasons... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 11 hours ago, ptatc said: Now you are taking the discussion to an absurd extreme. No one ever said nor implied that the minors are a waste of time. They are all necessary steps in the development of players. There just becomes a time when the next challenge needs to be placed upon the player. I believe in one of my posts I said that Jimenez should spend time at AAA. I believe I am the one who posted his walk rate while you only wanted to discuss his ERA. The walk rate is high on the season but has been better recently and he is showing good progress. By this one criteria judging method, you must think that Mocada should still be in the minors due to his high K rate. Somethings are just not going tochange for a player's style. I have a feeling the way Kopech likes to throw all out, he will always walk batters. That won't change against AAA hitters because overall he isn't having much difficulty with them. There comes a time when thy need to be challenged and for these two it might be this year. If their progress dictates they stay down they should. However, that should be determined by development not strictly contractual status with the reason stated ad nauseam before. All I am saying is if you think not calling them up this year and waiting for a couple of weeks next yerar means they will not be good players next season or 2020, they aren't nearly the prospects every thinks they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said: The issue, like others have said, is that most of the Sox best prospects other than Kopech, Jimenez and Collins are in A+. Because of that, IMO, the window doesn't open until 2021 at the earliest, and that is with perfect development of players. 2022 or 2023 is more likely for the opening of the window. Unfortunately by then Moncada will be rapidly approaching FA. Do you want Kopech and Jimenez to be close to FA as well? They could seriously have only a 1-3 year window because the best players are so far ahead of the rest. First off, this is not a fair assessment of the situation. By the end of the 2019 we should have potential building blocks in Moncada, Anderson, Jimenez, Collins, Zavala, Rodon, Lopez, Kopech, Hansen, Dunning, Giolito, Stephens, Burdi, Vieira, Hamilton, Fry, & Bummer (amongst others) already on the major league roster. Davidson, Sanchez, & maybe Abreu could still be around. This doesn’t account for any free agents we might add and potentially a guy like Madrigal in this year’s draft. And who knows, Robert might move pretty fast. Point is, we are NOT waiting on all the A+ ball prospects to start competing and the mere notion is absurd. More likely than not, we’ll package a few of those guys to acquire a cost-controlled star to fill a hole and let the cream of the crop have their crack at one or two spots. Good teams do introduce young players each year, just can’t have a lineup full of question marks. If this team isn’t serious about competing for at a very minimum for a Wild Card spot in 2020 then things have gone horribly wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: First off, this is not a fair assessment of the situation. By the end of the 2019 we should have potential building blocks in Moncada, Anderson, Jimenez, Collins, Zavala, Rodon, Lopez, Kopech, Hansen, Dunning, Giolito, Stephens, Burdi, Vieira, Hamilton, Fry, & Bummer (amongst others) already on the major league roster. Davidson, Sanchez, & maybe Abreu could still be around. This doesn’t account for any free agents we might add and potentially a guy like Madrigal in this year’s draft. And who knows, Robert might move pretty fast. Point is, we are NOT waiting on all the A+ ball prospects to start competing and the mere notion is absurd. More likely than not, we’ll package a few of those guys to acquire a cost-controlled star to fill a hole and let the cream of the crop have their crack at one or two spots. Good teams do introduce young players each year, just can’t have a lineup full of question marks. If this team isn’t serious about competing for at a very minimum for a Wild Card spot in 2020 then things have gone horribly wrong. The difference is that I see a roster similar to the 2014-2016 teams until Robert, Rutherford, Cease, etc. are called up. The only players I will be counting on to build around are Moncada, Kopech, Lopez and Jimenez. They might get lucky with other guys but I'm not counting on it. Then you have basically a stars/scrubs roster similar to 2016. Might be good enough to win 75-79 games but not more than that. Basically you have Kopech/Lopez playing the role of Sale/Quintana and Moncada/Jimenez playing the role of Eaton/Abreu. Possibly Burdi playing the role of Robertson. It still won't matter, because stars and scrubs. I'm not expecting them to crack .500 until 2021 at the earliest. They don't have enough to complete the roster until those guys from A ball arrive. I was more optimistic about things this offseason, but injuries to Hansen, Robert and Burger have changed the timeline. I would have expected those 3 up toward the middle of 2019 but now I'm cautiously optimistic they(Hansen/Robert) can get here in 2020. Anything they get from Burger is Gravy at this point. Edited May 23, 2018 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
35thstreetswarm Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 19 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: The difference is that I see a roster similar to the 2014-2016 teams until Robert, Rutherford, Cease, etc. are called up. The only players I will be counting on to build around are Moncada, Kopech, Lopez and Jimenez. They might get lucky with other guys but I'm not counting on it. Then you have basically a stars/scrubs roster similar to 2016. Might be good enough to win 75-79 games but not more than that. Basically you have Kopech/Lopez playing the role of Sale/Quintana and Moncada/Jimenez playing the role of Eaton/Abreu. Possibly Burdi playing the role of Robertson. It still won't matter, because stars and scrubs. I'm not expecting them to crack .500 until 2021 at the earliest. They don't have enough to complete the roster until those guys from A ball arrive. I was more optimistic about things this offseason, but injuries to Hansen, Robert and Burger have changed the timeline. I would have expected those 3 up toward the middle of 2019 but now I'm cautiously optimistic they(Hansen/Robert) can get here in 2020. Anything they get from Burger is Gravy at this point. If I pretended (i) that Jose Abreu, Tim Anderson, Lucas Giolito, Zack Collins, Seby Zavala, Yolmer Sanchez, and Matt Davidson (and others) didn't exist; (ii) that there is no free agency or trade market; and (iii) that top prospects typically languish and suck at the big league level for two-three years before contributing, I would agree with this. But this timeline is totally divorced from reality and recent rebuild history. I've said this before, but by your timeline, the Cubs and Astros should be getting decent any day now... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said: If I pretended (i) that Jose Abreu, Tim Anderson, Lucas Giolito, Zack Collins, Seby Zavala, Yolmer Sanchez, and Matt Davidson (and others) didn't exist; (ii) that there is no free agency or trade market; and (iii) that top prospects typically languish and suck at the big league level for two-three years before contributing, I would agree with this. But this timeline is totally divorced from reality and recent rebuild history. I've said this before, but by your timeline, the Cubs and Astros should be getting decent any day now... Isn't the whole point of bringing up Jimenez and Kopech this season is fear they may suck for a while? Personally, if the product wasn't so unwatchable, I think a lot more people would see keeping these guys in the minors makes a lot more sense than calling them up this season. The excuse that they can't learn any more at the minor league level is laughable. Mike Trout mastered the major leagues, yet somehow, he continues to get better. If these guys are half as good as we all hope, 4 or 5 years from now, people are going to wish the Sox kept them down for the extra year of control. Edited May 23, 2018 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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