Fulmer sent to Charlotte

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Isn't this a common issue with young pitchers? The guy has started 22 MLB games and he is supposed to be a finished product? You a far too pessimistic.

Welcome to Soxtalk. 

[footlongcomiskeydog]

17 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

The next question is what to do with Giolito if he continues to suck. If he goes down, then he's out of options and must make the team in 2019 out of spring or the Sox risk losing him for nothing. To be honest, the Eaton trade, which looked like a haul for the Sox in return for a good player for Washington, now looks like  a whole lot of nothing for both sides. Dunning has marginal stuff, Lopez can't keep his stuff from start to start and Giolito is a shell of the prospect he once was. 

Its still way too early to evaluate the Eaton trade. If none of Giolito, Lopez, or Dunning are in the starting rotation in two years then I would say that Hahn got owned once again. 

I suspect Gio will be sent down if he continues to walk everyone in sight. The fact that his fastball is sitting in the low 90s is extremely concerning. 

 

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Welcome to Soxtalk. 

Thanks for the reminder. Sorry, I lost my head there for a second.

[thxfrthmmrs]

This serves as a reminder to let young pitchers work on their mechanics and repeat-ability of it in the minors rather than rushing them up so they can "work with Coop". I can't remember the last young pitcher had success being called up early to work with Cooper, certainly not one who had mechanical issues. And alluding to Cooper's comment, the pressure to succeed right out of the gate by the fans and media is a lot for young pitchers to handle.

Feel free to link to this thread next time when someone wants to rush Kopech, or Hansen or any of the young pitchers with susceptible mechanics up to the majors. 

Edited May 19, 2018 by thxfrthmmrs

[Replacement Level Poster]

2 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

It seems like they aren’t changing it as much as trying to give him some sort of repeatability.  He doesn’t do the same thing every time and it messes him up

I’ll have to go back and look at some of the media accounts when they drafted him to see if there were concerns about repeating his delivery. I would hope their scouting would have raised a red flag, or maybe they figured he’s a bright guy,good makeup etc. we can teach him to repeat his delivery, release point etc. Let’s  draft him anyway. Not to assign blame, but Fulmer was the last of the Doug Lauman 1st rounders. The next question I guess is how long of a leash does Giolito have if he doesn’t show some consistency?

[Chicago White Sox]

How the fuck does Dunning have marginal stuff?

[ptatc]

44 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

This serves as a reminder to let young pitchers work on their mechanics and repeat-ability of it in the minors rather than rushing them up so they can "work with Coop". I can't remember the last young pitcher had success being called up early to work with Cooper, certainly not one who had mechanical issues. And alluding to Cooper's comment, the pressure to succeed right out of the gate by the fans and media is a lot for young pitchers to handle.

Feel free to link to this thread next time when someone wants to rush Kopech, or Hansen or any of the young pitchers with susceptible mechanics up to the majors. 

Sale and Rodon come to mind in recent memory. Believe it or not some players need to be pushed to the point of failure then go learn from it. Some can do it in the MLB. Some need to go down again. Very few of them can come to the MLB and stay. Don't be surprised that Kopech pr Jimenez come to the MLB and need to go back down. How many times to Rizzo go to the MLB and need to go back down.

Player development isnt linear.

Edited May 19, 2018 by ptatc

[Jake]

14 hours ago, ptatc said:

If he can't figure out how to throw strikes, he won't help in the bullpen. As i said in the game thread, his piches seemed to group well but just out of the strike zone. He needs to move over on the rubber or find a way to get that group in the strike zone. His pitches have excellent movement. 

Right. He has a starter's repertoire and it's not very clear that he has acceptable command of any of it. I might feel differently if he could basically locate his fastball but just couldn't get any offspeed over. His current profile is as someone who would struggle just as much out of the pen. And he also profiles as someone who would be pretty good if he could flip the switch on his command because his stuff is plenty good.

13 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't know him personally but I don't think Fulmer needs a "wake up call", I think the Sox have screwed with him way too much. His "Wake up call" was being shelled when he was called up to save the 2016 bullpen (Thanks Rick!). Since then he's been doing everything people have asked him to do to develop a more consistent delivery, he has made delivery changes a number of times, but his delivery is wild as a starting point and there's been so many attempts to alter it, with no time to see if changes work, that the end result is him getting shelled every first inning. 

He has to get into a single rotation, a single release point, that he can repeat, and throw strikes from. The stuff is there, but the Sox haven't been able to harvest it by turning good stuff into a consistent pitcher because of the choices they made in 2016, and they are still paying for it here.

Totally agree. The demotion may or may not motivate Fulmer beyond where he already is, but I see no reason to believe that he would benefit much from having a message sent in this way. The benefit is pitching against a lower talent level, with less pressure, and perhaps on a more regular schedule. By all accounts he takes things very seriously, works very hard, and maybe is sufficiently intense and detail-oriented that it is detrimental to his ability to pitch in MLB.

8 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Fulmer has a 4,96 career ERA in the minors and a career 5::58 ERA in AAA. He wasn’t ruined by being rushed. He just had no business being in the major leagues. Maybe something clicks. He has had some flashes of brilliance. I just don’t see how you can go from a guy who even can be considered a top 10draft pick to where he is now. If he was throwing what he is throwing now in college, there is no way he would have been successful.

Obviously it would be foolish to give up on him, but I think it is pretty likely he is a lost cause. I know Andrew Miller was awful for a while then became a stud reliever. But that would require Fulmer being able to throw strikes something he shows no evidence  he will ever be able to do. If he  cannot throw strikes, he will need to find another line of work,

My general opinion is that there's a lot of value in a player having a track record of success. The flip side of that is there is a lot of uncertainty in projecting future performance that is better than the player's past performance.  With that in mind, I think it's fair to be pessimistic about Fulmer.

That being said, he has had a very unusual developmental path that makes me take his numbers with a grain of salt. We moved him through the minor leagues like he was Carlos Rodon or Chris Sale, but he just wasn't. A normal first round college pitcher would just now be reaching the majors. The problem for Fulmer is it will be hard to fill in those lost innings in the lower minors that he can never get back. Some of his issues could have potentially been ironed out against competition that wouldn't punish him for every lapse. When you face competition that kills you when you lapse, it becomes difficult to implement significant changes because you're just trying to survive.  Hopefully he'll be able to take on some possibly ambitious changes to right himself in AAA.

[Jack Parkman]

57 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Isn't this a common issue with young pitchers? The guy has started 22 MLB games and he is supposed to be a finished product? You a far too pessimistic.

Not that I'm aware of. It is weird that he goes from 96-98 to 91-93 from start to start. Young pitchers with less mileage on their arms shouldn't be having this problem. 

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

Not that I'm aware of. It is weird that he goes from 96-98 to 91-93 from start to start. Young pitchers with less mileage on their arms shouldn't be having this problem. 

Its very common for all pitchers to go through dead arm periods. Ever heard an announcer discuss having to pitch without their best stuff? 

If youve never seen a young pitcher struggle to adjust to MLB hitter or struggle to amintain their stuff, you havent watch enough MLB.

Its fairly rare that a young pitcher comes up to the MLB and doesnt have a period of adjustment and can be consistent right away.

[Jack Parkman]

4 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Its very common for all pitchers to go through dead arm periods. Ever heard an announcer discuss having to pitch without their best stuff? 

If youve never seen a young pitcher struggle to adjust to MLB hitter or struggle to amintain their stuff, you havent watch enough MLB.

Its fairly rare that a young pitcher comes up to the MLB and doesnt have a period of adjustment and can be consistent right away.

I know about dead arm periods, but I think this is more than that. You don't have 3 dead arm periods in the first 7 weeks of the season.  When it comes to command/control, sure, I've seen that a ton. When it comes to velocity/movement I haven't seen that happen with young pitchers. Usually velocity and movement decrease with age, and ability to command/control the zone increase. 

Edited May 19, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Jack Parkman]

29 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How the fuck does Dunning have marginal stuff?

If he threw with his left hand he'd be ok. But he throws with his right hand. Ever since pitchers have been throwing harder than ever that has an effect on MLB hitters too. 10 years ago the bare minimum was 87 for LHP and 90 from RHP. Now it is 89 for LHP and 92 for RHP. In today's MLB I won't even consider anyone a true prospect as a LHP unless they average 91 and a RHP unless they average 93 until they prove they can get hitters out at the MLB level for 2-3 seasons. We all thought Q was going to get figured out until he proved otherwise. 90-91 from a RHP looks like a beach ball to MLB hitters now and 88 looks like one from LHP. We have to adjust our expectations. Dunning is in the 90-92 range so he's marginal at this point. Breaking stuff doesn't mean anything if hitters can use your fastball as a launching pad. 

 

Edited May 19, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[southsider2k5]

17 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

If he threw with his left hand he'd be ok. But he throws with his right hand. Ever since pitchers have been throwing harder than ever that has an effect on MLB hitters too. 10 years ago the bare minimum was 87 for LHP and 90 from RHP. Now it is 89 for LHP and 92 for RHP. In today's MLB I won't even consider anyone a true prospect as a LHP unless they average 91 and a RHP unless they average 93 until they prove they can get hitters out at the MLB level for 2-3 seasons. We all thought Q was going to get figured out until he proved otherwise. 90-91 from a RHP looks like a beach ball to MLB hitters now and 88 looks like one from LHP. We have to adjust our expectations. Dunning is in the 90-92 range so he's marginal at this point. Breaking stuff doesn't mean anything if hitters can use your fastball as a launching pad. 

 

This is way to simplistic.  Velocity isn't nearly the only measure of stuff.  Location and consistency are much more important. 

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

If he threw with his left hand he'd be ok. But he throws with his right hand. Ever since pitchers have been throwing harder than ever that has an effect on MLB hitters too. 10 years ago the bare minimum was 87 for LHP and 90 from RHP. Now it is 89 for LHP and 92 for RHP. In today's MLB I won't even consider anyone a true prospect as a LHP unless they average 91 and a RHP unless they average 93 until they prove they can get hitters out at the MLB level for 2-3 seasons. We all thought Q was going to get figured out until he proved otherwise. 90-91 from a RHP looks like a beach ball to MLB hitters now and 88 looks like one from LHP. We have to adjust our expectations. Dunning is in the 90-92 range so he's marginal at this point. Breaking stuff doesn't mean anything if hitters can use your fastball as a launching pad. 

 

This is just a horribly simplistic way to look at things.  First off, your once again under-estimating his velocity based on one start.  I’d wager he sits closer to 93 MPH and tops at 95 to 96.  Second, even if he was typically in the 90 to 92 range, you’re ignoring the heavy sink on his fastball and his ability to command the pitch.  MLBpipeline has already bumped him 18 spots on their top 100 list.  He may not have have ace upside, but the kid is a bulldog and probably has the best chance of being a quality major league starter out of anyone in our system.  Your pessimism with him is completely unfounded.

[TaylorStSox]

3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Pitching coach Don Cooper said at the start of the season Fulmer had been unfairly criticized by Sox fans for his struggles, which come with youth.

“When he first came to the big leagues (in 2016), we put him in the bullpen,” Cooper said. “He had a couple of good outings and a couple of lemons. But everybody was writing Carson Fulmer off: ‘Can he do this? Can’t do this, can’t do that.’ All of that negative crap.

“Then he had a start against Minnesota and couldn’t get out of the first. ‘Oh, Carson can’t do this and can’t do that. He sucks.’ After one freaking outing. Come on. That’s not even fair to anybody.”

Fulmer got his shot to prove fans wrong, but couldn’t show any consistency, as evidenced by an 8.07 ERA in nine appearances, including eight starts.

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-white-sox-michael-kopech-carson-fulmer-20180519-story.html

This comes from the same organization that gave Daniel Hudson three whole starts before trading him to Arizona...

 

 

I've literally never seen a poster anywhere on the internet make more strange comparisons and use more false equivalence than you. I have a theory that you and Greg are the same person just trolling all of us. 

[ptatc]

36 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I know about dead arm periods, but I think this is more than that. You don't have 3 dead arm periods in the first 7 weeks of the season.  When it comes to command/control, sure, I've seen that a ton. When it comes to velocity/movement I haven't seen that happen with young pitchers. Usually velocity and movement decrease with age, and ability to command/control the zone increase. 

I've seen plenty of times where velocity is inconsistent. One is the deadarm period. another is a young pitcher struggling with mechanics. Another one could be he had trouble getting loose because he has been the only Sox starter to go to 100 pitches regularly in the beginning of the season. A fourth one especially with the Sox and cooper could be adjustments to philosophy. If you remember the last start he was 92-93 in the first inning but 96-97 in the second.

I could see this conversation:

Coop: Hey Rey. I know you've been out there throwing as hard as you can but you aren't getting many strikeouts or swings and misses. How about we try taking something off the fastball to get more swings and misses.

Lopez: Ok. that sounds good.

After the first inning and getting beat around.

Lopez: I think I'm going back to my way.

Coop: Yeah. We'll work on it the next game. This game is a game of adjustments and learning.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

I've literally never seen a poster anywhere on the internet make more strange comparisons and use more false equivalence than you. I have a theory that you and Greg are the same person just trolling all of us. 

I’ve never seen a pitching coach criticizing the fans that pay his salary more than Don Cooper.

Who is it?  

Either our talent evaluation/projection sucks...or Cooper is not getting his message through, or a combination thereof.

Besides, Greg has plenty of likes.  But you’d have to be a complete idiot to see our vocabulary, religious beliefs, taste in movies or politics/doomsday scenarios shares absolutely no commonalities.

It will also be pretty hard to pull off since we live 13 hours apart, he in KS, myself in China.  Oh, and I never have referred to myself in the 3rd person, like Dole, Trump and Greg.

Edited May 19, 2018 by caulfield12

[thxfrthmmrs]

2 hours ago, ptatc said:

Sale and Rodon come to mind in recent memory. Believe it or not some players need to be pushed to the point of failure then go learn from it. Some can do it in the MLB. Some need to go down again. Very few of them can come to the MLB and stay. Don't be surprised that Kopech pr Jimenez come to the MLB and need to go back down. How many times to Rizzo go to the MLB and need to go back down.

Player development isnt linear.

Of the three, Fulmer was the least big league ready. Sale was asked to play a different role when he first came up, and one could argue that Rodon could have stayed down in the minors for another half season. In Fulmer's case, he simply wasn't big league ready based on his showing in the minors yet he was rushed up so he could work with Coop against big league hitting. I don't think there are many cases where staying longer in the minors have hurt the prospect's development, it's usually the other way around. We aren't talking about keeping a Kris Bryant or Ronald Acuna down in the minors here. I am fine with promoting young guys ahead of schedule, but only when they have past the tests in the minors.

[Lip Man 1]

4 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

The next question is what to do with Giolito if he continues to suck. If he goes down, then he's out of options and must make the team in 2019 out of spring or the Sox risk losing him for nothing. To be honest, the Eaton trade, which looked like a haul for the Sox in return for a good player for Washington, now looks like  a whole lot of nothing for both sides. Dunning has marginal stuff, Lopez can't keep his stuff from start to start and Giolito is a shell of the prospect he once was. 

Dunning looks pretty good to me.

[pcq]

6 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Pitching coach Don Cooper said at the start of the season Fulmer had been unfairly criticized by Sox fans for his struggles, which come with youth.

“When he first came to the big leagues (in 2016), we put him in the bullpen,” Cooper said. “He had a couple of good outings and a couple of lemons. But everybody was writing Carson Fulmer off: ‘Can he do this? Can’t do this, can’t do that.’ All of that negative crap.

“Then he had a start against Minnesota and couldn’t get out of the first. ‘Oh, Carson can’t do this and can’t do that. He sucks.’ After one freaking outing. Come on. That’s not even fair to anybody.”

Fulmer got his shot to prove fans wrong, but couldn’t show any consistency, as evidenced by an 8.07 ERA in nine appearances, including eight starts.

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-white-sox-michael-kopech-carson-fulmer-20180519-story.html

This comes from the same organization that gave Daniel Hudson three whole starts before trading him to Arizona...

 

 

Coop is a grumpy rabbit ears. Up next his lecture about fans not coming out. Carson might have needed more work after they toned down his jarring delivery. I like his stuff though. 

[caulfield12]

The question is not the movement on his pitches...it’s command within the strike zone.

Which he clearly doesn’t have right now, let alone control of his pitches.   His confidence is also shot again, not unlike down the stretch in 2016.

 

[southsider2k5]

A good read.

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/white-sox/carson-fulmers-demotion-and-current-state-white-sox-rotation-provide-several-rebuilding

[soxforlife05]

I think he'll figure it out at some point. He has major league stuff no doubt. I wouldn't cut him loose, give him time. Our AAA team is nothing special so there's no issue with roster space.

Edited May 19, 2018 by soxforlife05

[caulfield12]

At this point, I don’t think we can even 100% rule out Dylan Covey being a major contributor down the line.

Stranger things have happened in the history of baseball.

[soxforlife05]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

I’ve never seen a pitching coach criticizing the fans that pay his salary more than Don Cooper.

Who is it?  

Either our talent evaluation/projection sucks...or Cooper is not getting his message through, or a combination thereof.

Or the player has consistency issues with mechanics? A lot of the fans are idiots. They've never been fans through a rebuild so all they do is crucify players who are learning a major league approach to the game. They think the young superstars they hear about on ESPN grow on trees. The leap from college to the pros is bigger in baseball than in any other sport.

 

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

At this point, I don’t think we can even 100% rule out Dylan Covey being a major contributor down the line.

Stranger things have happened in the history of baseball.

I won't be holding my breath. I don't think he will ever have a place on a contending roster. I'd love to be surprised. Fulmer on the other hand is capable of that, with time of course.