Sox have team meeting after game

[The Mighty Mite]

17 hours ago, Real said:

what an awful franchise.

The franchise has become a laughingstock.

[Soxbadger]

2 hours ago, Bazox said:

I need to understand how the enrolment of players and coaches works  , so the following is how I see it from an British set up .

The coach (Ricky) should have busted some chops a while back , if he did or did not it hasn't worked and Ricky should be replaced , the fans in the stadium need to be extremely vocal when a player is not pulling his weight and when Ricky makes a decision that they are not happy with , it doesn't matter if it works , let him know . Baseball fans at the park seem IMO to very amiable , you pay a lot of money to watch these highly paid sportsmen and you should get maximum effort for it .

Ok I'm coming at this from a soccer perspective , my team's motto is Nil Satis Nisi optimum (nothing but the best is good enough) and it hasn't been for a couple of seasons and boy do we let them know about it . New manager announced today !

 

The one major difference between premier league and US sports is that you get something good when you are bad in the US. In premier league there 0 incentive to be bad or purposefully lose. But imagine if instead of being relegated, the worst team in premier league got first choice of transfer or signing etc. All of a sudden it becomes more complicated because maybe losing every game means you get the chance to draft the next generational talent.

The Sox had never really tried to rebuild until last year. They constantly tried to win and it often meant that they were middle of the road team. Many Sox fans had been advocating "tanking" for a while and so now the Sox actually went with that. There is no reason to boo the players, because many of them arent really MLB quality players. The coach may not be great, but again, if the Sox lose the most games its actually beneficial.

The Bulls (chicagos basketball team) was supposed to be terrible this year and be in the running for the worst record. They inexplicably won a bunch of games and are now not picking in the top 5. Those wins potentially could change the face of the team for the next 5-10 years for the worse.

 

[Lip Man 1]

3 hours ago, SonofaRoache said:

I'd like to see a few free agents added to the team on one year deals if need be. These guys need to taste some success if we want to contend in 2020. I'd be okay with 75+ wins, and although it seems unlikely now, that should be a goal. Our rebuild started ahead of the Cubs and Astros so we shouldn't be on a completely linear path.

I think you won't really see success until 2021 now because of all the injuries. I think next year they'll sign some free agents (not the major ones) to help stabilize things especially in the bullpen. Hopefully they sniff the .500 mark in 2019, contend for a wild card spot and a winning record in 2020 and then seriously contend in 2021.

[Chicago White Sox]

JFC, another thread ruined because Greg can’t accept rebuilding and doesn’t understand how it works.  When will this nonsense end??

[SonofaRoache]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

I can think of one other team that has injuries on the scale the Sox have had, and they have gone from being expected to be one of the best teams in baseball to under .500.

Who are we kidding? We lost a pitcher that hasnt proven anything yet. An outfielder that crashed back down to Earth. A few relief pitchers and a few outfielders that are meh. I'm more concerned about the injuries taking place in our farm system tbh. 

[SonofaRoache]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I think you won't really see success until 2021 now because of all the injuries. I think next year they'll sign some free agents (not the major ones) to help stabilize things especially in the bullpen. Hopefully they sniff the .500 mark in 2019, contend for a wild card spot and a winning record in 2020 and then seriously contend in 2021.

2020 needs to be a successful season, even if it's not a championship one. Some guys need to force their way in and others need to prove their potential is justified. This fan base should not settle for an unsuccessful 2020 season. 

[Eminor3rd]

The team was always going to suck. What we need is to see a legitimate step forward from Moncada and one of Lopez/Giolito, and for a couple other randoms to look like they might be regulars for a few years (hopefully this is Davidson, Sanchez). Bonus would be a successful cup of coffee from Kopech and perhaps Jimenez.

So far, it's not looking great, but there's plenty of time to make it okay. 

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

I can think of one other team that has injuries on the scale the Sox have had, and they have gone from being expected to be one of the best teams in baseball to under .500.

As of last week's update the White Sox have had the 7th fewest days spent on the disabled list in MLB. Counting Rodon.

[Chicago White Sox]

46 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

The team was always going to suck. What we need is to see a legitimate step forward from Moncada and one of Lopez/Giolito, and for a couple other randoms to look like they might be regulars for a few years (hopefully this is Davidson, Sanchez). Bonus would be a successful cup of coffee from Kopech and perhaps Jimenez.

So far, it's not looking great, but there's plenty of time to make it okay. 

I’m happy with Moncada’s developent despite his recent cold streak.  I’m very pleased with Anderson’s season.  Like you said, Davidson & Sanchez might be solid depth pieces.  Abreu is having a great season and could theoretically be used as a trade chip.  Plenty to like on the offensive side this year IMO.

It’s really the pitching that’s the been the problem.  I didn’t expect anything out of Fulmer, but we really need one of Lopez & Giolito to establish themself by the end of this year.  I still have faith in Lopez despite some rough outing and inconsistencies, but Giolito looks like a lost cause at the moment.  Not exactly how we were all hoping this would shake out.  At least Fry looks like he might a long-term answer in the pen.  Hopefully Kopech & Stephens come up at some point and show some promise as god knows we could really use it.

[greg775]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

JFC, another thread ruined because Greg can’t accept rebuilding and doesn’t understand how it works.  When will this nonsense end??

Read the post directly under this one, posted above. The poster also is negative regarding this topic and his name isn't greg. Just because you are patient in rebuilds doesn't mean every fan has to be. Some of us are flat out pissed.

Edited June 1, 2018 by greg775

[caulfield12]

8 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said:

Of course we are going to stink - we have had TERRIBLE starting pitching - some of the worst I've ever seen since I've been a Sox fan. Even guys like Danny Wright and Carlos Castillo weren't this bad.

With Anderson's offensive resurgence, flashes of Moncada's future, Abreu's career year type stats, Davidson's power stroke and Kopech/Eloy being ahead of schedule, I don't understand how people can't see that once we get some major league caliber pitching in the mix our record is going to massively improve. 

Rodon?

[caulfield12]

56 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m happy with Moncada’s developent despite his recent cold streak.  I’m very pleased with Anderson’s season.  Like you said, Davidson & Sanchez might be solid depth pieces.  Abreu is having a great season and could theoretically be used as a trade chip.  Plenty to like on the offensive side this year IMO.

It’s really the pitching that’s the been the problem.  I didn’t expect anything out of Fulmer, but we really need one of Lopez & Giolito to establish themself by the end of this year.  I still have faith in Lopez despite some rough outing and inconsistencies, but Giolito looks like a lost cause at the moment.  Not exactly how we were all hoping this would shake out.  At least Fry looks like he might a long-term answer in the pen.  Hopefully Kopech & Stephens come up at some point and show some promise as god knows we could really use it.

1) Palka could be a good fit at DH (just nowhere in the outfield, please!)

2) Shields is actually pitching well, and we could probably (finally) unload his contract but he might be more valuable to the White Sox because Giolito's likely to go down, and Santiago/Volstad/Gonzalez are just roster filler at this point...still, any cost savings on that deal would be a benefit.

3) Rondon still has another half season at least to become more consistent...if Jones is traded, he's likely the heir-apparent at closer.

4) Covey has shown flashes of being able to make it as a 5th starter...that would mitigate the Giolito/Fulmer disasters, at least somewhat

5) Jose Rondon has been very effective in his role, fwiw

[GreenSox]

10 hours ago, Tony said:

This is what I've never really understood. There is very little difference for me between the "Going for it" Sox that had a core of Konerko, Pierzynski, Dunn, Rios, etc. that would routinely finish 3rd, 4th and 5th. We knew what was going to happen at the end of the season. Done by early August, try again next year with a similar core. 

I see the "I didn't know we would be THIS bad." For me, there isn't much of a difference at this point. 

But the core was Abreu, Sale, Quintana and Eaton.  That's an all-star core, although on the thin side.  Why was 78 wins its peak?  Seems absurd, really.  Has whatever caused that peak been corrected?
One obvious cause was the farm. Is the drafting better than it was  in 2014?

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

But the core was Abreu, Sale, Quintana and Eaton.  That's an all-star core, although on the thin side.  Why was 78 wins its peak?  Seems absurd, really.  Has whatever caused that peak been corrected?
One obvious cause was the farm. Is the drafting better than it was  in 2014?

That was never the problem.  It was always players #5-25.   Quality of depth was non-existent.

Plus, we had a long string of terrible free agent signings, beginning with Dunn.  We couldn't have done ANY worse if we'd just thrown darts at a board and signed those players.

[GreenSox]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

That was never the problem.  It was always players #5-25.   Quality of depth was non-existent.

Plus, we had a long string of terrible free agent signings, beginning with Dunn.  We couldn't have done ANY worse if we'd just thrown darts at a board and signed those players.

Correct.  And what's to stop the Sox from repeating that?  Let's say the core is 7 this time.  Will the farm feed most of 9-25?  Will they let it feed? Or will they make more trades for average/declining veterans to fill out the roster; it's like an instinct with this FO.  The filler SHOULD be better by default this time because guys like Davidson, Palka, Yolmer, Leury are better than the most of the veterans they traded for/signed in 15-16.

[caulfield12]

Isn't there some statistic out there that out of the Top 5 Baseball American minor league systems going back to either 2000 or 1990...that only 1 or 2 of them haven't at least made the playoffs once in the 4-5 years following that ranking?

It's something crazy like that.

Now obviously, just making the playoffs once, making it only to the WC game or even a situation like Pittsburgh's might not be good enough for most Sox fans.   But it's a start, at least.

 

Rebuild Start Date: December 2016. The White Sox pivoted toward a full rebuild at the 2016 Winter Meetings, trading Chris Sale and Adam Eaton on consecutive days. They followed by trading Jose Quintana, Todd Frazier, Tommy Kahnle, David Robertson, Melky Cabrera, Anthony Swarzak, Dan Jennings, Miguel Gonzalez and Tyler Clippard in summer 2017.

Current Status:: The White Sox have a group of young players in the majors and more on the way from the No. 4 farm system in the game. Trade acquisitions Yoan Moncada, Lucas Giolito and Reynaldo Lopez complement homegrown talents Carlos Rodon, Tim Anderson and Carson Fulmer, and most of the next wave—Michael Kopech, Eloy Jimenez, Alec Hansen, Dane Dunning—will begin 2018 at Double-A or higher.

Next Step: Continue developing the young players in the majors. They all appeared to turn a corner at the end of last year, and now the next wave will join them progressively over the next year or so.

Risk Factor: Timing. The White Sox have the most well rounded group of talent of any rebuild, limiting some of their risk. Still, ensuring everyone is brought up in such fashion that they can peak together is something Chicago will have to monitor.

ETA: 2019 or 2020.

https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/state-of-the-rebuilds/

 

We probably have to cross Fulmer and Giolito off that list...and Hansen's taken a step back (but hopefully should be okay when he returns).  Then there's the Burger loss.  This was written March 19th, not sure if Burger's eventual fate was already known at that point in time (think so).  

The emergence of Cease and re-emergence of Collins are probably the biggest stories...with some of the glow fading (a bit) on the hot starts for many of the young W-S outfielders.

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by caulfield12

[Bazox]

9 hours ago, Soxbadger said:

The Sox had never really tried to rebuild until last year. They constantly tried to win and it often meant that they were middle of the road team. Many Sox fans had been advocating "tanking" for a while and so now the Sox actually went with that. There is no reason to boo the players, because many of them arent really MLB quality players. The coach may not be great, but again, if the Sox lose the most games its actually beneficial.

Thanks , I can now appreciate the problem , I would feel the same if I had been watching the last ten years , it just had to happen the season I got TV access  , although I'm learning more about the game from poor play than I would from the comfort zone of being a Yankees or Astros fan.

FWIW and from my limited observations I think the Astros will go very close to winning again , I tuned in to a game and could identify how much better they are than us , by far the best team I've seen so far.

To the future 

[soxfan49]

14 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

The franchise has become a laughingstock.

5 years ago, the Cubs were a laughing stock. 5 years ago, the Astros were a laughing stock.

[caulfield12]

17 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

5 years ago, the Cubs were a laughing stock. 5 years ago, the Astros were a laughing stock.

For 20+ years, Pitt and KC were laughing stocks...

[SCCWS]

12 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

The team was always going to suck. What we need is to see a legitimate step forward from Moncada and one of Lopez/Giolito, and for a couple other randoms to look like they might be regulars for a few years (hopefully this is Davidson, Sanchez). Bonus would be a successful cup of coffee from Kopech and perhaps Jimenez.

So far, it's not looking great, but there's plenty of time to make it okay. 

I would add Anderson to Moncada. Hopefully one or both take a leap forward next year. 

[Chicago White Sox]

34 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

For 20+ years, Pitt and KC were laughing stocks...

Those are small market teams that tried rebuilding solely through the draft.  That's not typically a recipe for success.  We're a mid market team that traded its core assets for a boat-load of high-end prospects, many of which were partially developed already.  These comps aren't even remotely comparable.  

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Those are small market teams that tried rebuilding solely through the draft.  That's not typically a recipe for success.  We're a mid market team that traded its core assets for a boat-load of high-end prospects, many of which were partially developed already.  These comps aren't even remotely comparable.  

Neither are the Cubs.

The Astros and Sox share similar franchise values, but we’re not going to average 99 losses from 2017-2020 or Hahn, KW and JR will all be gone.

[Thad Bosley]

31 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Those are small market teams that tried rebuilding solely through the draft.  That's not typically a recipe for success.  We're a mid market team that traded its core assets for a boat-load of high-end prospects, many of which were partially developed already.  These comps aren't even remotely comparable.  

Steve Stone said on WGN radio just last week that the Sox are a "major market team".  Which stands to reason, given that they reside in the major market known as "Chicago".  

[Chicago White Sox]

28 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Neither are the Cubs.

The Astros and Sox share similar franchise values, but we’re not going to average 99 losses from 2017-2020 or Hahn, KW and JR will all be gone.

I’m not sure I follow.  We are executing our own rebuild strategy and it’s a little bit different than all those that came before it.  Our plan should (hopefully) work for us and allow for a relatively quick turnaround.  We were able to execute our strategy because we had multiple high-end assets and that we cashed in at peak value.  That is a fairly unique scenario.  Comparing our rebuild to the Cubs & Astros or Royals & Pirates doesn’t make a lot of sense other than to acknowledge some losing is required upfront while you wait on prospects to reach the scene & develop.  Our timeline isn’t dependent on multiple years of high draft picks and therefore should be accelerated if all goes right.

[Chicago White Sox]

10 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

Steve Stone said on WGN radio just last week that the Sox are a "major market team".  Which stands to reason, given that they reside in the major market known as "Chicago".  

What he said isn’t factually untrue, but revenue wise we’re a mid market team.  Having said that, there is major market potential in there.  It would take a lot of money, time, & effort to tap into it, but the upside is most definitely there.  I’m not a Reinsdorf hater by any means, but not sure it happens under his watch unless he can land a Machado or Harper next offseason.  That’s the type of move that is needed to re-engage our fanbase and steal some of the casual segment.