FS: We've Suffered Enough - Call Up Eloy

[GreenSox]

2 hours ago, greg775 said:

 Now is there a guarantee we'll be great once the rebuild is complete? 

Yes.  Because it will not be complete until the Sox are great or at least good.

[soxfan49]

19 hours ago, greg775 said:

That was a great great article. I like this part:

"Maybe that’s why the Sox, never an attendance powerhouse, have the third-lowest average attendance to date, and are already over 110,000 guests behind last year’s number at this time. I’m not attendance-shaming here. I don’t blame people for not spending money on a largely trash product, especially with a minimum $20 price tag on parking alone. I don’t blame people for not wanting to take their kids to see a team that’s 8-18 at home. Save the ballpark for a chance at a good memory. Support the team in person if you want and can, by game ticket, TV tune-in, or website visit, but I don’t think anyone should feel obligated to. Maybe that’s a controversial opinion! Maybe it’s not. I don’t care either way."     

I still think it's unhealthy for everybody involved to have such a bad team. I guess the only reason to keep Eloy in the minors is the possibility of this lousy team affecting him mentally. The evidence sure is there that Timmy and Moncada lose interest at times and who can blame them since there's the "wink wink" lose is good mentality going on. I guess if I had to give an opinion I'd keep Eloy in the minors just because the losing environment is sooooo bad with the big league club right now. Why poison him til next season when maybe the Sox realize they better shoot for .480 or risk turning a lot of young players into losers.

Congrats to the author though. Great article and timely.

You really think the ONLY reason to keep him in the minors is because playing for this team could effect him mentally? That’s the ONLY reason?

[Eminor3rd]

12 hours ago, greg775 said:

We're not being soft. We are just embarrassed at this sorry team. Now is there a guarantee we'll be great once the rebuild is complete? I sure hope so. I personally think we're seeing some of the problems with a rebuild. Some players seem to lose focus evidenced by their lapses. Whatever ... just win baby. 

Calling for bringing up a player for the sole purpose of "mitigating the suffering" of the fans, despite the fact that it goers against the development of the player and/or the meta-game strategy of the team's plans is being soft.

We're all embarrassed about how bad this team is -- that's why we're pushing so hard for them to do this correctly. Suck it up. Have the discipline to be one of the big boys, like the Astros and the Cubs did. You're right that there's no guarantee, which is why it's so important NOT to b**** out and rush it just so your nightly TV is easier to watch this year.

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Calling for bringing up a player for the sole purpose of "mitigating the suffering" of the fans, despite the fact that it goers against the development of the player and/or the meta-game strategy of the team's plans is being soft.

We're all embarrassed about how bad this team is -- that's why we're pushing so hard for them to do this correctly. Suck it up. Have the discipline to be one of the big boys, like the Astros and the Cubs did. You're right that there's no guarantee, which is why it's so important NOT to b**** out and rush it just so your nightly TV is easier to watch this year.

You are kidding right?  greg runs marathons by practicing the 100 meter run.  Why suffer that much when Concentration and Determination will carry him to the finish line?

[ChiSox59]

I see basically no good reason to call up Eloy or Kopech this season.  I understand that you can make an argument that Eloy is ready, and Kopech for that matter, but this season is toast.  We're already wasting valuable service time on Moncada and others.  Just do this thing the right way, get another year of control on the backend when it matters instead of now when it doesn't, and secure the #1 pick in the meantime.  

Get serious about actually putting a product on the field that con compete on nightly basis in 2019. 

[wrathofhahn]

We are in year two of a rebuild why are people belly aching like this has been some sort of long drawn out process?

 

 

[AJUribe]

Lose every single game this year and make sure you get the number one pick, any plan otherwise is completely foolish.

[he gone.]

My take actually not the popular one from the poll results, which surprised me. But I'd bring him up late June after his Super Two is for sure in the rear view mirror. I hate to be the "culture" guy, but I think if we want to start righting this ship we have to start acting like we care about winning. Less of Palka, more of Jimenez. I was, and still remain okay with the Delmonicos and Tilson's of the world getting their shot and realize injuries have played a part in these lineups, but I think there's a certain sense of making SOME progress this year in the right direction. I was hoping by now we'd find a few bullpen arms and a few players that look like they could be tradeable pieces and a few more that could be nice fringe starters/nice utility players in the future. So far Davidson has stepped up nicely for a  DH role for a few years (if he can keep this up). Yolmer has shown himself to be a competent 100-115 game player who can ideally bounce around from 3b to SS to 2B to the OF on a contending team (Nunez type player on a champ team - Red Sox). Fry has pitched well, but other than that it's been pretty bad. I'm hoping one of Tilson or Cordell can prove their worth as a 4OF this season too. Other than that? I think this season has been disappointing when looking at Giolitos step back (wasn't expected by me) the fact that Fulmer proved my worries, etc. I know this process takes a long time, and I wasn't expecting even as many wins as we had last year, but I hoped to see more glimpses of exciting baseball stretches.

 

A lot of sidetrack there in that post, but I guess what I'm saying is that I want Eloy up in the OF. I want the OF to finish the season with Avi (basically untradeable - or not for enough anyways) in RF or LF, Tilson or Cordell in CF and Eloy in LF/RF. I want Yolmer continuing his stuff at 3B, Anderson doing his job as SS and Moncada getting his swings in. I think catcher is interesting. I wouldn't mind Zavala up in the majors and Collins knocking on the door either. I want to build a culture. I want Kopech up. etc. I want this team rocking and rolling into 2019 at the end of 2018. Not limping.

[Eminor3rd]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

You are kidding right?  greg runs marathons by practicing the 100 meter run.  Why suffer that much when Concentration and Determination will carry him to the finish line?

When will he stop and wonder why, when he's been running all these years, the finish line has yet to appear?

[Buehrlesque]

Keeping Eloy (and Kopech) in the minors until May 2019 is missing the forest for the trees. When a player is ready, he should begin getting tested in the majors. Both because he's earned it, and it is best for the team long-term. The White Sox will be better in 2019 and 2020 if these guys begin orienting themselves in 2018. (And believe it or not, with Eloy, Kopech, Rodon, Burdi and a significant free agent or two, the Sox will more seriously and credibly attempt to compete in '19.)

I understand keeping a player down for a few weeks to gain an extra year, and even avoiding Super Two status when it's possible. But leaving these guys in the minors for an entire calendar year is the move more likely to backfire — not bringing them up to begin getting their footing and acclimating with the future teammates and the big league environment it is artificial. Both players will be ready this year. It would be artificial and damaging to deny that.

[Eminor3rd]

9 minutes ago, Buehrlesque said:

Keeping Eloy (and Kopech) in the minors until May 2019 is missing the forest for the trees. When a player is ready, he should begin getting tested in the majors. Both because he's earned it, and it is best for the team long-term. The White Sox will be better in 2019 and 2020 if these guys begin orienting themselves in 2018. (And believe it or not, with Eloy, Kopech, Rodon, Burdi and a significant free agent or two, the Sox will more seriously and credibly attempt to compete in '19.)

I understand keeping a player down for a few weeks to gain an extra year, and even avoiding Super Two status when it's possible. But leaving these guys in the minors for an entire calendar year is the move more likely to backfire — not bringing them up to begin getting their footing and acclimating with the future teammates and the big league environment it is artificial. Both players will be ready this year. It would be artificial and damaging to deny that.

If you want to argue that Eloy should be up because he's ready for the Majors, and that the player's development path is more important than Super Two -- that's fine and I'm 100% with you.

But that's not the premise of the article.

[ChiSox59]

40 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

My take actually not the popular one from the poll results, which surprised me. But I'd bring him up late June after his Super Two is for sure in the rear view mirror. I hate to be the "culture" guy, but I think if we want to start righting this ship we have to start acting like we care about winning. Less of Palka, more of Jimenez. I was, and still remain okay with the Delmonicos and Tilson's of the world getting their shot and realize injuries have played a part in these lineups, but I think there's a certain sense of making SOME progress this year in the right direction.

Palka deserves the at bats he is getting.  His current OPS+ is 126.  Guy is absolutely terrible in the OF, but I see no reason to stop giving him at bats right now.  

[Buehrlesque]

2 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

If you want to argue that Eloy should be up because he's ready for the Majors, and that the player's development path is more important than Super Two -- that's fine and I'm 100% with you.

But that's not the premise of the article.

Right, the idea he should be up merely to throw a bone to fans is obviously just a sports radio meatball take. I doubt anyone anywhere takes that seriously. But there are posters in this thread who voted to wait until 2019. That is nuts.

[ChiSox59]

14 minutes ago, Buehrlesque said:

Keeping Eloy (and Kopech) in the minors until May 2019 is missing the forest for the trees. When a player is ready, he should begin getting tested in the majors. Both because he's earned it, and it is best for the team long-term. The White Sox will be better in 2019 and 2020 if these guys begin orienting themselves in 2018. (And believe it or not, with Eloy, Kopech, Rodon, Burdi and a significant free agent or two, the Sox will more seriously and credibly attempt to compete in '19.)

I understand keeping a player down for a few weeks to gain an extra year, and even avoiding Super Two status when it's possible. But leaving these guys in the minors for an entire calendar year is the move more likely to backfire — not bringing them up to begin getting their footing and acclimating with the future teammates and the big league environment it is artificial. Both players will be ready this year. It would be artificial and damaging to deny that.

Just curious...how exactly is a damaging??  The White Sox own these guys for their first 6 big league seasons.  They can be as pissed as they want at the organization, but its their career, and me thinks they care a bit more about becoming major league baseball stars than pissed off at their organization.

Eloy will go to AAA soon.  When he does, if he continues to rake, it will be hard to keep him down all season.  It will be interesting to see what happens.

I think its pretty clear that Kopech still has some stuff to work on.  He most certainly is capable of pitching in the bigs right now, and is likely our best pitcher, but he isn't a finished product - his walk rate is still up there, and his 3.86 ERA in AAA isnt setting the world on fire (yes I realize a lot of that is one start). 

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, Buehrlesque said:

Right, the idea he should be up merely to throw a bone to fans is obviously just a sports radio meatball take. I doubt anyone anywhere takes that seriously. But there are posters in this thread who voted to wait until 2019. That is nuts.

40% of the posters that have voted feel that way.  Its not a few peoples takes.  I personally would much rather have them for 162 games in 2025 than 50-70 games in a lost season where one more elite talent could be added to this crop of players for the 2020-2025 window. 

I don't think those 50-70 games in 2018 are going to make any measurable difference for Eloy or Kopech's ability to be all-star caliber players while under the control of the Sox.   

[flavum]

7 minutes ago, Buehrlesque said:

Right, the idea he should be up merely to throw a bone to fans is obviously just a sports radio meatball take. I doubt anyone anywhere takes that seriously. But there are posters in this thread who voted to wait until 2019. That is nuts.

A 21-year-old playing in the minors for a full season...insanity, I tell ya. Starting the clock when the team is nowhere near competing...that’s ok?

The Sox are going to do what they’re going to do, and I’ll try to enjoy the show. But they have nothing to apologize for if they keep Eloy down until next mid-April.

Edited June 1, 2018 by flavum

[southsider2k5]

26 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

When will he stop and wonder why, when he's been running all these years, the finish line has yet to appear?

That's why greg is an ultra-marathoner.

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, flavum said:

A 21-year-old playing in the minors for a full season...insanity, I tell ya. Starting the clock when the team is nowhere near competing...that’s ok?

The Sox are going to do what they’re going to do, and I’ll try to enjoy the show. But they have nothing to apologize for if they keep Eloy down until next mid-April.

Exactly. This he has to be up in the big leagues to develop properly is bunk. His development apparently wasn't stunted when he was hurt last season. It apparently wasn't stunted when he was hurt this season. I hope they send him to AAA and call him up a couple weeks into next year. It probably won't happen that way, but hurting his development is laughable. If he's the star we all hope, it won't hurt him at all.

[southsider2k5]

37 minutes ago, Buehrlesque said:

Keeping Eloy (and Kopech) in the minors until May 2019 is missing the forest for the trees. When a player is ready, he should begin getting tested in the majors. Both because he's earned it, and it is best for the team long-term. The White Sox will be better in 2019 and 2020 if these guys begin orienting themselves in 2018. (And believe it or not, with Eloy, Kopech, Rodon, Burdi and a significant free agent or two, the Sox will more seriously and credibly attempt to compete in '19.)

I understand keeping a player down for a few weeks to gain an extra year, and even avoiding Super Two status when it's possible. But leaving these guys in the minors for an entire calendar year is the move more likely to backfire — not bringing them up to begin getting their footing and acclimating with the future teammates and the big league environment it is artificial. Both players will be ready this year. It would be artificial and damaging to deny that.

The damage from too SOON is WAY worse, than the damage from too LONG.

[ptatc]

9 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Exactly. This he has to be up in the big leagues to develop properly is bunk. His development apparently wasn't stunted when he was hurt last season. It apparently wasn't stunted when he was hurt this season. I hope they send him to AAA and call him up a couple weeks into next year. It probably won't happen that way, but hurting his development is laughable. If he's the star we all hope, it won't hurt him at all.

I would disagree. There is a great deal to learn at the MLB level. It all depends on how long that takes. If what you say is true then all players should be instantly productive at the MLB level at the same level they were in the minors.

I assume you believe moncada will not be a good MLB player because he won't have development phase at the MLB. He is what he is and that's that. This is the part that is short sighted.

[fathom]

Maybe they bring him up to AAA on Monday after his bobble head night tonight

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 5/31/2018 at 9:35 AM, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I am one that generally likes to sap as much value as I can out of every player. Ask iamshack about it. He hates it. With that being said, leaving Kopech and Jimenez in the minors until next April is insane and there's almost zero chance it happens. Those guys will be ready soon if they aren't already and it serves no purpose to leave them down there longer to suck another year of control out of them. It sets a really bad precedent in this case in my opinion. 

This. I am shocked that the next april vote is leading the poll. I know with all the injuries and bad pitching performances that the rebuild timeline may have lost some steam but to punish Eloy for it just so we can retain him longer seems  out of line to say the least. You reward the guys who have earned it you don't punish them.

[Eminor3rd]

19 minutes ago, fathom said:

Maybe they bring him up to AAA on Monday after his bobble head night tonight

The Sox organization might be different, but:

As someone who works in marketing/promotions for a minor league team, I can tell you for certain that the MLB player dev team (at least for the two organizations I've worked with) could not possibly care less about accommodating our promotional schedule.

[NorthSideSox72]

1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

If you want to argue that Eloy should be up because he's ready for the Majors, and that the player's development path is more important than Super Two -- that's fine and I'm 100% with you.

But that's not the premise of the article.

That was in fact the exact premise of the article. That Eloy IS ready, and that keeping him down purely for Super 2 is not good for the fans of the team.

 

[Eminor3rd]

6 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

That was in fact the exact premise of the article. That Eloy IS ready, and that keeping him down purely for Super 2 is not good for the fans of the team.

 

Just gave the article a quick re-read. If that was her point, she buried the lede quite deep.