FS: We've Suffered Enough - Call Up Eloy

[NorthSideSox72]

7 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Just gave the article a quick re-read. If that was her point, she buried the lede quite deep.

I think you may be reading too much into the title, which is admittedly a bit click-baity. The article makes quite clear that Julie thinks Eloy is ready for the majors.

 

[he gone.]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

40% of the posters that have voted feel that way.  Its not a few peoples takes.  I personally would much rather have them for 162 games in 2025 than 50-70 games in a lost season where one more elite talent could be added to this crop of players for the 2020-2025 window. 

I don't think those 50-70 games in 2018 are going to make any measurable difference for Eloy or Kopech's ability to be all-star caliber players while under the control of the Sox.   

I think this is true, however I also think players aren't dumb. I think they want to go to an organization that treats the players right. We had a reputation when we were competing of bringing up guys like Sale when they were ready to compete. I think when you show players you want to win and do it the right way that it helps.  Let's say there was no CBA or time clock, both Kopech and Eloy would be up as they are better options than we currently have. I think that's the point I'm trying to make -- I think you play your best options and try to win every game. If even half the guys that we love in the minors turn out to do the job theyre supposed to then we'll likely be more like the Cubs or Astros or Yanks that has too much talent in the minors and nowhere for them to play in the majors anyways. The difference between 2024 and 2025 to me shouldn't matter. Hopefully we have a Gleyber Torres or Kyle Tucker knocking at the door to take the place of an Eloy. Or a Kopech like guy knocking on the door of Kopech. If we build this correctly we should be in a good position to compete for an extended window.

[Buehrlesque]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

40% of the posters that have voted feel that way.  Its not a few peoples takes.  I personally would much rather have them for 162 games in 2025 than 50-70 games in a lost season where one more elite talent could be added to this crop of players for the 2020-2025 window. 

I don't think those 50-70 games in 2018 are going to make any measurable difference for Eloy or Kopech's ability to be all-star caliber players while under the control of the Sox.   

I would also rather have them for 2026. And 2027. Where do you draw the line? I can understand why people draw the line in different spots, but for me, setting the stage in 2019 and 2020 are more important than what may or may not happen in 2025.

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

I think its pretty clear that Kopech still has some stuff to work on.  He most certainly is capable of pitching in the bigs right now, and is likely our best pitcher, but he isn't a finished product - his walk rate is still up there, and his 3.86 ERA in AAA isnt setting the world on fire (yes I realize a lot of that is one start). 

Having something to work on doesn't mean you have to stay in the minors. Tim Anderson is two years in as a major leaguer and has a lot to work on. He's not going to AAA to work on his fielding. Moncada does too. Lopez, same thing. None of those guys are finished products, but they all are major league ready. Kopech will be in the same boat before the end of 2018, if he's not already.

[Buehrlesque]

1 hour ago, flavum said:

A 21-year-old playing in the minors for a full season...insanity, I tell ya. Starting the clock when the team is nowhere near competing...that’s ok?

The Sox are going to do what they’re going to do, and I’ll try to enjoy the show. But they have nothing to apologize for if they keep Eloy down until next mid-April.

Yes, absolutely. I don't think you should wait until you are "ready" to compete to start a player's clock. If you're ready to compete, your main contributors should already have major league experience. That's what makes you ready to compete.

[ChiSox59]

6 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

I think this is true, however I also think players aren't dumb. I think they want to go to an organization that treats the players right. We had a reputation when we were competing of bringing up guys like Sale when they were ready to compete. I think when you show players you want to win and do it the right way that it helps.  Let's say there was no CBA or time clock, both Kopech and Eloy would be up as they are better options than we currently have. I think that's the point I'm trying to make -- I think you play your best options and try to win every game. If even half the guys that we love in the minors turn out to do the job theyre supposed to then we'll likely be more like the Cubs or Astros or Yanks that has too much talent in the minors and nowhere for them to play in the majors anyways. The difference between 2024 and 2025 to me shouldn't matter. Hopefully we have a Gleyber Torres or Kyle Tucker knocking at the door to take the place of an Eloy. Or a Kopech like guy knocking on the door of Kopech. If we build this correctly we should be in a good position to compete for an extended window.

A few things:

-Eloy and Kopech may be pissed that they were kept down longer than they felt they deserved.  But this organization owns their right for 6 seasons.  If they want to make it big playing baseball, they'll get over it.  

-Oh like the Cubs with Bryant?  That really affected their ability to attract free agents.  Money speaks, and money is what gets FAs.

-2024 and 2025 should certainly matter, and are very much the backend of what appears to be a strong 5-7 year window for the Sox.  As a fan, I am happy to wait for Kopech and Eloy in a season that we're on pace for less than 50 wins if it means we have them for an extra season when we actually are trying to win baseball games and compete for championships.

-We more than likely aren't getting the Kyle Tuckers and Gleybor Torres (yes, I know he was an intl FA) without being terrible. I don't think Kopech and Eloy are going to suddenly turn this team into a .500 club, but they will add some wins, and it is very, very important that the Sox add one more elite talent to this group with the 2019 draft.  This season is already toast - may as well get the #1 pick out of the deal.  

[ChiSox59]

13 minutes ago, Buehrlesque said:

I would also rather have them for 2026. And 2027. Where do you draw the line? I can understand why people draw the line in different spots, but for me, setting the stage in 2019 and 2020 are more important than what may or may not happen in 2025.

I draw the line at 2019.  I expect this team to try and turn the page and actually start to teach this team how to win baseball games.  Once a few weeks pass in 2019, I fully expect and hope to see Kopech and Eloy up for good, and I'd like to see other real prospects Dunning, Collins, Burdi and perhaps even Cease figuring into the 2019 plans as well at some point. 

[ptatc]

5 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I draw the line at 2019.  I expect this team to try and turn the page and actually start to teach this team how to win baseball games.  Once a few weeks pass in 2019, I fully expect and hope to see Kopech and Eloy up for good, and I'd like to see other real prospects Dunning, Collins, Burdi and perhaps even Cease figuring into the 2019 plans as well at some point. 

Other than Kopech none of the players you have listed have pkayed at AAA, Cease hasnt even been to AA. To expect them to contrbute before July of next year is pushing it. The Sox will not have much for the first half of 2019 unless this current group really takes a step up. Adding FA next year defeats the purpose of the rebuild.

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Other than Kopech none of the players you have listed have pkayed at AAA, Cease hasnt even been to AA. To expect them to contrbute before July of next year is pushing it. The Sox will not have much for the first half of 2019 unless this current group really takes a step up. Adding FA next year defeats the purpose of the rebuild.

Disagree heavily on the bolded. 

Cease is pushing it, hence the "perhaps even".  I full expect to see Burdi right away next season, and could definitely see Collins and Dunning by mid season.    

[ptatc]

8 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Disagree heavily on the bolded. 

Cease is pushing it, hence the "perhaps even".  I full expect to see Burdi right away next season, and could definitely see Collins and Dunning by mid season.    

No doubt Collins and Dunning could be there by mid-season. But if they don't push Eloy and Kopech up this season, who are much more touted prospects, I don't see why they would push the others faster in their development. Burdi should be ready depending on what he looks like throwing, hopefully he fully recovers.

The FA are a little early when they are trying to develop the prospects. Right now I'm not even sure what position they would want to look for. The OF is where they need the most help. However, with so many talented prospects in the OF, long term deals would block all of their OF investments.

[ChiSox59]

3 minutes ago, ptatc said:

No doubt Collins and Dunning could be there by mid-season. But if they don't push Eloy and Kopech up this season, who are much more touted prospects, I don't see why they would push the others faster in their development.

I think they would "push" them because they'r ready to get the next core of players all on the field together, learning to win and taking their lumps together in preparation for the next several seasons.  I also don't think calling Collins and Dunning up in June or July next year is really "pushing it".  They're both in AA right now, and doing very well.  

4 minutes ago, ptatc said:

The FA are a little early when they are trying to develop the prospects. Right now I'm not even sure what position they would want to look for. The OF is where they need the most help. However, with so many talented prospects in the OF, long term deals would block all of their OF investments.

Signing free agents that fit into the future core and developing prospects are not mutually exclusive.  I don't expect the Sox to sign Machado, but getting him a plugging him in at 3B for the next 6-8 seasons does a lot to improve the future outlook.  A true CF wouldn't be all bad either, maybe a guy like AJ Pollock.  I don't think those types of signings hamper the future, though I think Machado makes more sense than Pollock long term.   

[elrockinMT]

On 5/31/2018 at 9:27 AM, NorthSideSox72 said:

I think it's important to note that, if you read the article, you will see that Julie isn't arguing to promote a prospect just because the fans want it. She's arguing that he's ready, and the team is keeping him down (maybe) for financial reasons, and she feels he should be promoted instead of that.

 

I think he might surprise up here but really is it worth it? Let him stay and develop in the minors might be the best and wiser choice. I think it’s possible that we see a number of prospects breaking camp with the Sox in 2019 

[he gone.]

38 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

A few things:

-Eloy and Kopech may be pissed that they were kept down longer than they felt they deserved.  But this organization owns their right for 6 seasons.  If they want to make it big playing baseball, they'll get over it.  

-Oh like the Cubs with Bryant?  That really affected their ability to attract free agents.  Money speaks, and money is what gets FAs.

-2024 and 2025 should certainly matter, and are very much the backend of what appears to be a strong 5-7 year window for the Sox.  As a fan, I am happy to wait for Kopech and Eloy in a season that we're on pace for less than 50 wins if it means we have them for an extra season when we actually are trying to win baseball games and compete for championships.

-We more than likely aren't getting the Kyle Tuckers and Gleybor Torres (yes, I know he was an intl FA) without being terrible. I don't think Kopech and Eloy are going to suddenly turn this team into a .500 club, but they will add some wins, and it is very, very important that the Sox add one more elite talent to this group with the 2019 draft.  This season is already toast - may as well get the #1 pick out of the deal.  

I think more or less it's a agree to disagree. I get your points, but I also disagree. I think there's a problem of always playing for the future and accepting failure at the MLB level. At a certain point the Sox have to put their big boy pants on and sign free agents, play the rookies, and learn from the mistakes at the MLB level to learn and grow into a successful team.

[ChiSox59]

3 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

I think more or less it's a agree to disagree. I get your points, but I also disagree. I think there's a problem of always playing for the future and accepting failure at the MLB level. At a certain point the Sox have to put their big boy pants on and sign free agents, play the rookies, and learn from the mistakes at the MLB level to learn and grow into a successful team.

Yeah, next season.  Putting your big boy pants on 1/3 on the way through a 55-107 season seems shortsighted, and very well could cost you a generational talent because you won 3-5 extra games.  

But fair enough. 

[greg775]

1 hour ago, BrianAnderson said:

I think more or less it's a agree to disagree. I get your points, but I also disagree. I think there's a problem of always playing for the future and accepting failure at the MLB level. At a certain point the Sox have to put their big boy pants on and sign free agents, play the rookies, and learn from the mistakes at the MLB level to learn and grow into a successful team.

Great post by Brian. I wish some of these folks would post more.

[southsider2k5]

Soxtalk as a GM:  This guy is doing awesome!  Call him up!

Two weeks later: This guy sucks, cut him!

Two years later:  Why did they cut that guy, he is awesome!

 

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

I think they would "push" them because they'r ready to get the next core of players all on the field together, learning to win and taking their lumps together in preparation for the next several seasons.  I also don't think calling Collins and Dunning up in June or July next year is really "pushing it".  They're both in AA right now, and doing very well.  

Signing free agents that fit into the future core and developing prospects are not mutually exclusive.  I don't expect the Sox to sign Machado, but getting him a plugging him in at 3B for the next 6-8 seasons does a lot to improve the future outlook.  A true CF wouldn't be all bad either, maybe a guy like AJ Pollock.  I don't think those types of signings hamper the future, though I think Machado makes more sense than Pollock long term.   

The sox shouldnt push a prospect if he isnt ready. Forcing them to be ready will not nelp the team be successful. They may be ready but i dont think they should count on it. 

Machado may be a good signing but if they sign a CF what will the sox do with Rutherford and Robert in 2 years? They have spend resources to acquire these guys and now you want them to spend more resources to make them trade bait. Its better to let the rebuild happen at the pace of the players development.

[greg775]

17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Soxtalk as a GM:  This guy is doing awesome!  Call him up!

Two weeks later: This guy sucks, cut him!

Two years later:  Why did they cut that guy, he is awesome!

 

My opinion of Soxtalk as a fan: Wait til next year or better yet, wait til two years from now.

Sox fans used to be badasses, never were like Cub fans. They demanded excellence now. The front office was always concerned with its second citizen status in town. They were terrified of fielding horrific teams such as this one. Now thanks to TV contracts, it's all about the future as Brian Anderson said in a post above. That is scary. They better get this one right since we're being forced to wait.

Edited June 1, 2018 by greg775

[Dick Allen]

19 minutes ago, greg775 said:

My opinion of Soxtalk as a fan: Wait til next year.

Sox fans used to be badasses, never were like Cub fans. They demanded excellence now. The front office was always concerned with its second citizen status in town. Now thanks to TV contracts, it's all about the future as Brian Anderson said in a post above. That is scary. 

Even if you want to be a badass, 16-37 suggests this season is over. No use spending resources now for a few more wins (including IMO Eloy and Kopech control) that can be spent later when the team has a fighting chance to actually do something.

I do agree the rebuild is far from a sure thing. Kopech could be as good as Sale. Lopez could be as good as Q.  Eloy could put up a 6.0 WAR season like Eaton in 2016. That’s a lot of coulds. Even if it happens, they are back to where they started. They couldn’t build a winner with those 3 signed cheaply, I see no reason to think when the time comes to put up or shut up, the White Sox have the correct people in place to take them over the top, let alone keep them there.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Dick Allen

[greg775]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

Even if you want to be a badass, 16-37 suggests this season is over. No use spending resources now for a few more wins (including IMO Eloy and Kopech control) that can be spent later when the team has a fighting chance to actually do something.

I agree, I was speaking in general about this season. The division blows yet the FO made no effort to signing a few guys to placehold until the studs are ready and in the meantime, contend. Cleveland is laughing at everybody but Minnie conceding.

[Dam8610]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

Even if you want to be a badass, 16-37 suggests this season is over. No use spending resources now for a few more wins (including IMO Eloy and Kopech control) that can be spent later when the team has a fighting chance to actually do something.

I do agree the rebuild is far from a sure thing. Kopech could be as good as Sale. Lopez could be as good as Q.  Eloy could put up a 6.0 WAR season like Eaton in 2016. That’s a lot of coulds. Even if it happens, they are back to where they started. They couldn’t build a winner with those 3 signed cheaply, I see no reason to think when the time comes to put up or shut up, the White Sox have the correct people in place to take them over the top, let alone keep them there.

It's the depth behind those guys that make the difference. Carlos Rodon, Tim Anderson, Yoan Moncada, Yolmer Sanchez, Matt Davidson, Daniel Palka, Lucas Giolito, Carson Fulmer, Jordan Stephens, Thyago Vieira, Zack Burdi, Zack Collins, Seby Zavala, Dane Dunning, Alec Hansen, Ian Clarkin, Jordan Guerrero, Spencer Adams, Ian Hamilton, Ryan Burr, Jose Ruiz, Dylan Cease, Jimmy Lambert, Bernardo Flores, Blake Rutherford, Luis Alexander Basabe, Micker Adolfo, Luis Robert, Jake Burger, Gavin Sheets, Ti'Quan Forbes, Yeyson Yrizarri, Matt Foster, Luis Gonzalez, Laz Rivera, Tate Blackman, Blake Battenfield, Lincoln Henzman, Kade McClure, some of the players who will be drafted June 4-6, and some of the players who will be drafted in 2019 are the depth behind the three guys you mentioned that will determine whether this rebuild will work or fail. The Sox didn't have anything close to that level of depth behind Sale, Q, and Eaton, which is why it didn't work.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Dam8610

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, greg775 said:

Great post by Brian. I wish some of these folks would post more.

The one area that makes sense is due to our division...but we still can’t PUSH too much (although I do think they have to make some free agent splashes as quickly as this offseason, and I’ve already addressed who).

Minnesota already find themselves 6 1/2 GB and could be knocked out with a sweep by CLE this early.

They also are going to have to start rebuilding/reloading because they have expiring contracts for guys like Mauer (another competitor for Abreu?), Dozier, Santana, etc.  Maybe Logan Morrison, can’t remember if he signed for 1 or 2.  Odorrizi also becomes an interesting trade/don’t trade case.  Addison Reed, who they just acquired as a FA?

At any rate, what’s their core to rebuild?  Well, Berrios and Sano, but both are having disappointing seasons and won’t sign long-term extensions into FA.  Buxton is closing in on official bust status after the strong ending to last year.  Finally, Romero and Kepler are “good/really good” players but not All-Stars.   They’re really STUCK, after bringing in a bunch of reinforcements this offseason.

 

The White Sox will have three divisional opponents WELL behind them in the rebuilding and only the Indians ahead of us...that’s awfully tempting to try to chase down CLE (who will lose Brantley, Kipnis and Encarnacion is falling off year by year) in 2019 instead of waiting for 2020/2021.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

My opinion of Soxtalk as a fan: Wait til next year or better yet, wait til two years from now.

Sox fans used to be badasses, never were like Cub fans. They demanded excellence now. The front office was always concerned with its second citizen status in town. They were terrified of fielding horrific teams such as this one. Now thanks to TV contracts, it's all about the future as Brian Anderson said in a post above. That is scary. They better get this one right since we're being forced to wait.

And look where it fucking got us.  Honestly, open your fucking eyes or shut the fuck up, because you can’t have it both ways.  We were mired in mediocrity while going for it and had a bottom five farm system to boot.  If we did not rebuild when we did, we’d probably be looking at a 5 to 10 year rebuild in the near future just to become decent again.  If all goes right now, we should be a legit World Series contender within three years.  So if you aren’t on your death bed, for the love of god stop your fucking whining and give this rebuild a chance to actually work.  And shame on me for wasting two minutes of my life responding to your ignorant, attention seeking ass.

[WBWSF]

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

And look where it fucking got us.  Honestly, open your fucking eyes or shut the fuck up, because you can’t have it both ways.  We were mired in mediocrity while going for it and had a bottom five farm system to boot.  If we did not rebuild when we did, we’d probably be looking at a 5 to 10 year rebuild in the near future just to become decent again.  If all goes right now, we should be a legit World Series contender within three years.  So if you aren’t on your death bed, for the love of god stop your fucking whining and give this rebuild a chance to actually work.  And shame on me for wasting two minutes of my life responding to your ignorant, attention seeking ass.

Your post is one of the reasons why Soxtalk.com is the best site for White Sox fans.  Your post is rather harsh but still you're expressing how you feel and its accepted by the people who run this site. If you posted this on some other White Sox site (WSI)  you would be banned by now.

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

Your post is one of the reasons why Soxtalk.com is the best site for White Sox fans.  Your post is rather harsh but still you're expressing how you feel and its accepted by the people who run this site. If you posted this on some other White Sox site (WSI)  you would be banned by now.

I agree.  Cheers for the mods for (hopefully) not suspending me!!

[caulfield12]

Rick Hahn never curses!