2018-2019 Official NBA thread

[Soxbadger]

26 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

Great, we have a coach whose philosophy doesn't fit the league or where it's going and will "grind it out" while everyone else scores 120 a game.

 

Outside of Lauri, I dont really see why its good for the Bulls development to be jacking up 3s 2 seconds into the offense in an attempt to score 120 points. 

 

21 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

Also, while I'm fine they got rid of Fred, it's such a stupid strategic move. This season is a disaster. Guys are hurt and/or out for the year. It's a perfect, tailor-made tank season and the reward is a selection of one of the 2-3 possible franchise prospects in the draft. If Fred was such a disaster and no one was listening to him...GOOOOOOD. They were losing at the perfect time! And no one I know cared, nor did any media locally or nationally care. It was a perfect PR tank season. Everyone expected them to be bad and then the injuries made it even worse.

I just don't get the move at all. If they start winning games because of this they royally fucked up.

If it was just losing, that would be fine. The problem is that if Hoiberg's coaching/style was stunting the future cores growth, then he needed to go. At some point there has to be an intervention when Blakeny and Holiday are shooting 20 shots a game at the cost of Carter/Lavine etc. 

My guess is that the Bulls decided they needed a coach with a much deeper background to be the guy with all these younger players. 

[illinilaw08]

32 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

Great, we have a coach whose philosophy doesn't fit the league or where it's going and will "grind it out" while everyone else scores 120 a game.

Meh, there's nothing in those tweets about hunting midrange jumpers late in the shot clock.  If "grind it out" means do what Memphis is doing offensively this year, that's fine (ie, maybe you are passing up a good shot for a great shot).  Efficiency and getting the right shots - which includes getting to the line - is the way to win in the NBA - and that mindset could really help the development of guys like Lavine.

[Kyyle23]

3 hours ago, bmags said:

It appears Boylen is a better coach than I thought. He at least learns from others mistakes.

From the little I have watched, Lavine is horrid at the end of games.   Terrible shot selection, doesn't look for teammates

[bmags]

1 hour ago, Soxbadger said:

 

Outside of Lauri, I dont really see why its good for the Bulls development to be jacking up 3s 2 seconds into the offense in an attempt to score 120 points. 

 

If it was just losing, that would be fine. The problem is that if Hoiberg's coaching/style was stunting the future cores growth, then he needed to go. At some point there has to be an intervention when Blakeny and Holiday are shooting 20 shots a game at the cost of Carter/Lavine etc. 

My guess is that the Bulls decided they needed a coach with a much deeper background to be the guy with all these younger players. 

While Hoiberg could do more to change up the offense, I just cannot agree with you that this is a function of Hoiberg failing.

Justin Holliday is the starting 3 on the Chicago bulls.

Antonio Blakeney is the backup 2 on the Chicago bulls.

Shooting the ball and hogging the ball is what those players are. They have to play because of bodies.

That is a John Paxson/ Gar Forman issue. He could have built a team that accentuated the strengths on defense and offense of Lavine and Lauri (and WCJ), he instead tried to find "value" in the 3 point shooting of the deeply flawed Holliday and scoring of blakeney at the direct expense of the team.

 

[bmags]

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

From the little I have watched, Lavine is horrid at the end of games.   Terrible shot selection, doesn't look for teammates

I was only commenting on it being a good idea for a new bulls coach to cut Brown loose. Would never let anyone recommended by Bulls FO on my staff.

[Kyyle23]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

I was only commenting on it being a good idea for a new bulls coach to cut Brown loose. Would never let anyone recommended by Bulls FO on my staff.

My quote was inadvertent, my comment was just in general. I think I was gonna respond to you and changed my mind, and didn't clear editor ha 

[Soxbadger]

Just now, bmags said:

While Hoiberg could do more to change up the offense, I just cannot agree with you that this is a function of Hoiberg failing.

Justin Holliday is the starting 3 on the Chicago bulls.

Antonio Blakeney is the backup 2 on the Chicago bulls.

Shooting the ball and hogging the ball is what those players are. They have to play because of bodies.

That is a John Paxson/ Gar Forman issue. He could have built a team that accentuated the strengths on defense and offense of Lavine and Lauri (and WCJ), he instead tried to find "value" in the 3 point shooting of the deeply flawed Holliday and scoring of blakeney at the direct expense of the team.

 

Its absolutely a function of Hoiberg. Hoiberg is the coach. Just because Holiday is the starting "3" doesnt entitle him to more shots per game than Carter. Just because Blakeney is a back up 2, doesnt entitle him to more shots than a starter. 

In the last 3 games, Blakeney hasnt palyed more than 5 minutes in any game. The Bulls havent added a guard, so why was Blakeney "hogging" the ball ever a requirement?

The answer is, it wasnt. 

Yesterday Holiday actually shot more 2s (a little below 50%), before that he was at an insane clip of shooting over 70% of his shots from 3. As I pointed out yesterday, he has shot the 7th most 3s of any player in the league. He has shot 120 more 3s, than 2s. No one else comes even close to that disparity.

So I completely disagree that somehow Hoiberg was forced to allow that to happen. Because he simply wasnt. At any time he could have changed the offense to fit the players. 

[bmags]

6 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Its absolutely a function of Hoiberg. Hoiberg is the coach. Just because Holiday is the starting "3" doesnt entitle him to more shots per game than Carter. Just because Blakeney is a back up 2, doesnt entitle him to more shots than a starter. 

In the last 3 games, Blakeney hasnt palyed more than 5 minutes in any game. The Bulls havent added a guard, so why was Blakeney "hogging" the ball ever a requirement?

The answer is, it wasnt. 

Yesterday Holiday actually shot more 2s (a little below 50%), before that he was at an insane clip of shooting over 70% of his shots from 3. As I pointed out yesterday, he has shot the 7th most 3s of any player in the league. He has shot 120 more 3s, than 2s. No one else comes even close to that disparity.

So I completely disagree that somehow Hoiberg was forced to allow that to happen. Because he simply wasnt. At any time he could have changed the offense to fit the players. 

Yeah they started playing Cam Payne more which you also said was a fireable offense.

Heads I win, tails you lose.

Holiday shoots nearly 40% from 3. That's a good shot for him. Telling him to shoot more twos, which he shoots at 46%, is a bad idea.

[Soxbadger]

9 minutes ago, bmags said:

Yeah they started playing Cam Payne more which you also said was a fireable offense.

Heads I win, tails you lose.

Holiday shoots nearly 40% from 3. That's a good shot for him. Telling him to shoot more twos, which he shoots at 46%, is a bad idea.

Where did I say playing Payne was a fireable offense? I said that its a poor indication on a coaching staff to have a player go from starting to 0 minutes a game. It shows that they dont really know the talent level.

Not all shots are equal. Holiday shooting nonsense 3s 2 seconds into a possession is a bad shot. Jacking up contested 3s at the expense of getting the ball to someone else, is a bad shot. If jacking up 3s all the time is such a great strategy, then why is Holiday the only player shooting over 70% of his shots from 3? Why is a much better shooter, Curry shooting less than 50% of his shots from 3? 

You can continue to defend Hoiberg, but youre argument that he shouldnt have to adjust his system to fit his players, is just absurd. The guy has done nothing at any level to suggest his system is so worthwhile that the world should change for him.

 

(edit)

And if youre so right about Hoiberg's brilliance, than I expect Hoiberg to be a hot name for a HC job in the NBA. But Ill bet Hoiberg goes back to NCAA and does not get a NBA HC offer.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Soxbadger

[Dick Allen]

24 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Where did I say playing Payne was a fireable offense? I said that its a poor indication on a coaching staff to have a player go from starting to 0 minutes a game. It shows that they dont really know the talent level.

Not all shots are equal. Holiday shooting nonsense 3s 2 seconds into a possession is a bad shot. Jacking up contested 3s at the expense of getting the ball to someone else, is a bad shot. If jacking up 3s all the time is such a great strategy, then why is Holiday the only player shooting over 70% of his shots from 3? Why is a much better shooter, Curry shooting less than 50% of his shots from 3? 

You can continue to defend Hoiberg, but youre argument that he shouldnt have to adjust his system to fit his players, is just absurd. The guy has done nothing at any level to suggest his system is so worthwhile that the world should change for him.

 

(edit)

And if youre so right about Hoiberg's brilliance, than I expect Hoiberg to be a hot name for a HC job in the NBA. But Ill bet Hoiberg goes back to NCAA and does not get a NBA HC offer.

I have no idea if he is a good NBA coach. The fact is the rosters he was given do not fit the style they hired him to implement. I doubt he will be a HOF coach so no big deal bouncing him, he may have deserved it, but the people above him share at least as equally in responsibility regard the failure of the franchise. 

That is the part I don’t understand. Gar is safe, yet he hired this guy after scorching the earth for the best match, forget everyone already knew he was going to be the next coach, Pax had been around 15 years. Except for lucking into the DRose pick, what kind of teams has he put together? 

 

If the Bulls were serious about winning and not just trying to make it look good, they would have bounced all 3 or at least made GarPax run the team how they see it should be run, and judged accordingly.

Gar actually said the day Hoiberg was hired that the Bulls had a championship roster.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Dick Allen

[bmags]

Yeah, never said Hoiberg was brilliant. But you see bulls deficiencies and blame it all on the coach, and I can't help but notice the players. 

So yeah, tell WCJ to shoot 40 times per game. Tie Holiday's hands behind his back. Have them do wind sprints. 

The team will get better as it returns a non-stupid point guard, additional guard depth and forward depth. And then we will say "wow, this team is playing so much better!"

[Soxbadger]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

I have no idea if he is a good NBA coach. The fact is the rosters he was given do not fit the style they hired him to implement. I doubt he will be a HOF coach so no big deal bouncing him, he may have deserved it, but the people above him share at least as equally in responsibility regard the failure of the franchise. 

That is the part I don’t understand. Gar is safe, yet he hired this guy after scorching the earth for the best match, forget everyone already knew he was going to be the next coach, Pax had been around 15 years. Except for lucking into the DRose pick, what kind of teams has he put together? 

Ive been down on the Bulls front office forever. The NBA draft threads were filled with me being annoyed by picks (except the last  2 years I liked). I hated the Butler trade (although it seems they may have won that one.) 

That being said, just because I dislike their front office, doesnt mean that I then defend the coach. Its probably best that they are all gone and someone else takes over. Complaining about the coach, doesnt mean you agree with the front office. It merely means that Hoiberg's time with the Bulls was up. Maybe he wasnt given the optimum chance to win, but I also never watched a game and felt he was doing the most with what he was given. I usually felt he was just a spectator who happened to get paid to be there. 

[Soxbadger]

7 minutes ago, bmags said:

Yeah, never said Hoiberg was brilliant. But you see bulls deficiencies and blame it all on the coach, and I can't help but notice the players. 

So yeah, tell WCJ to shoot 40 times per game. Tie Holiday's hands behind his back. Have them do wind sprints. 

The team will get better as it returns a non-stupid point guard, additional guard depth and forward depth. And then we will say "wow, this team is playing so much better!"

Who doesnt agree that the Bulls have a deficient roster?

The Bulls have a young roster. They need a coach who is actually going to coach. I never blamed Hoiberg for the Bulls losing, I blamed him for not making it a priority to get the young core better. Maybe its me, but Id rather the Bulls lost by 10 if it meant Lauri/Lavine/Carter were improving and getting better, than if they won by 10 because Blakeney and Holiday made 20 3s.

Its possible that the Bulls have a deficient roster and a bad coach. If that is the case, why are we keeping the coach? For sentimental reasons?

Edited December 5, 2018 by Soxbadger

[Dick Allen]

9 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Who doesnt agree that the Bulls have a deficient roster?

The Bulls have a young roster. They need a coach who is actually going to coach. I never blamed Hoiberg for the Bulls losing, I blamed him for not making it a priority to get the young core better. Maybe its me, but Id rather the Bulls lost by 10 if it meant Lauri/Lavine/Carter were improving and getting better, than if they won by 10 because Blakeney and Holliday made 20 3s.

Its possible that the Bulls have a deficient roster and a bad coach. If that is the case, why are we keeping the coach? For sentimental reasons?

Lauri/Lavine/Carter played exactly 1 game together. Lauri it can be argued is a much better player than most thought when drafted. A re draft would have him chosen sooner. Lavine has been better this year than most anticipated. WCJ has played pretty solid for a 19 year old just starting out. So , again, while I don’t have any idea if Fred is good, I don’t think you can say the young players development is a problem. For one thing, they have hardly played. The excuse used to fire him may be accurate, but why now? Why not last season or last offseason or after that embarrassment vs. GS?

it isn’t coincidence this happened right when Lauri got back. Portis and Dunn will come back, they will win more games and the coaching change will look like a great move.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Soxbadger]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Lauri/Lavine/Carter played exactly 1 game together. Lauri it can be argued is a much better player than most thought when drafted. A re draft would have him chosen sooner. Lavine has been better this year than most anticipated. WCJ has played pretty solid for a 19 year old just starting out. So , again, while I don’t have any idea if Fred is good, I don’t think you can say the young players development is a problem. For one thing, they have hardly played. The excuse used to fire him may be accurate, but why now? Why not last season or last offseason or after that embarrassment vs. GS?

Youre right they only played 1 game together. But Carter has played 24 games in Hoiberg's system. Too many times he was not being fed the ball in the post so that a guy with no future on the Bulls could jack up a 3. 

I cant tell you why the Bulls didnt fire him sooner. My guess is that they wanted to give him a shot with Lavine and the younger players. After watching 25 games, it became apparent that Hoiberg wasnt going to intervene and prioritize the young core. I felt that way much sooner, but that isnt a good reason for keeping him longer. Just because I should have fired someone yesterday and I didnt, doesnt mean I should then keep them today. It means that I should fire them today. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Soxbadger

[bmags]

24 minutes ago, Tony said:

Bulls are going to win the 8A State Title this year, I can feel it..

3 PASSES BEFORE YOU CAN SHOOT

[Brian]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

3 PASSES BEFORE YOU CAN SHOOT

4.

 

[Quin]

3 hours ago, bmags said:

3 PASSES BEFORE YOU CAN SHOOT

This was the ultimate cheat strategy in Harry Potter: Quidditch World Cup on the PS2, so I don't see why it wouldn't apply here.

[caulfield12]

Cue Hoosiers soundtrack with Coach Norman Dale cameo...and the swinging gate play for Chitwood, errr...Holliday.

[lostfan]

Yeah, professional players are not gonna respond well to high school coaching tactics. 

[Brian]

3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Cue Hoosiers soundtrack with Coach Norman Dale cameo...and the swinging gate play for Chitwood, errr...Holliday.

If you're gonna quote the greatest sports movie ever, you need to get the correct reference, damnit!

It's the PIcket Fence!!!!

[Harry Chappas]

43 minutes ago, Brian said:

If you're gonna quote the greatest sports movie ever, you need to get the correct reference, damnit!

It's the PIcket Fence!!!!

I was going to post that.

Don't get caught watching the paint dry. 

Can't get into shape during the season. He just needs to say we are unathletic and hope to change this in the off season but we are going to suck until next season.

[SoxAce]

Markkanen...

[Jose Abreu]

It only took a few weeks for Jimmy to cause problems in Philly! Yesterday Embiid admitted that he's a tough fit on their roster and that it makes things harder for him

[Jose Abreu]

Jim Boylen is awful.

Bulls started the game down 17-0, he pulls all 5 starters 5 minutes into it. That's fine on the surface, but everything was dropping for the Celtics and the Bulls were getting good looks that just weren't falling.

Then in the second half, the Bulls are losing the quarter by a score of 5-3, everything seems normal, and Boylen pulls everybody again, this time after about 2 minutes. Great way to lose a locker room before you've even won it over. They never saw the floor again, the starters played 7 minutes + whatever they got in the 2nd quarter. The bench was much worse.