Kopech "getting closer"

[ChiSox59]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I think when it gets to be a month or two, at this stage of the rebuild, you should keep an eye on service time, it's silly not to. There are situations you can't say no, but IMO, we aren't close. Now it is all about hurting his feelings or pissing off a fanbase that is sick of losing almost every night. I think a few wins here and there will quiet the calls for Kopech and Jimenez.

This.  I can't think of any good organizational reasons to call them up now other than the classic "get their feet wet" BS.  This team sucks.   Having them in 2025 is exponentially more valuable than having them in 2018. 

[Jose Abreu]

27 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

What is best for him is improving on his 4.70 ERA, 1.35 WHIP and 5.16 BB/9 innings playing against AAA players.  Until he does that, he's given the Sox every excuse they need to keep him in AAA. 

He does need to work on the walk rate but I couldn't care less about his ERA. 48% of his earned runs allowed came from 2 (two) starts. 

[Bob Sacamano]

6 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

This.  I can't think of any good organizational reasons to call them up now other than the classic "get their feet wet" BS.  This team sucks.   Having them in 2025 is exponentially more valuable than having them in 2018. 

Yeah it seems like a no brainer to me. A few starts/half a season this year when the team sucks or another full season later on when we are hopefully good?

Edited June 13, 2018 by soxfan2014

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

He does need to work on the walk rate but I couldn't care less about his ERA. 48% of his earned runs allowed came from 2 (two) starts. 

I noticed that as well. 2 starts where he gave up 7 and another with 8 skewed his ERA.

[ChiSox59]

4 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

He does need to work on the walk rate but I couldn't care less about his ERA. 48% of his earned runs allowed came from 2 (two) starts. 

I know.  He's been pretty good in AAA.  But his stats are pretty meh, and its a perfect excuse to keep him in AAA.  If he were making mincemeat of the league, it'd be a little harder to spin the story.

I could be wrong, and we'll see Kopech and Eloy soon.  But I think its pretty obvious what the Sox plan is, and I for one absolutely love it.  

[Dick Allen]

13 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

This.  I can't think of any good organizational reasons to call them up now other than the classic "get their feet wet" BS.  This team sucks.   Having them in 2025 is exponentially more valuable than having them in 2018. 

That's my point. Have them for an entire season when they are supposed to be good, or have them for a month or two when they are bad. They will have almost all of next season to "get their feet wet".  To me, calling them up now is just being impatient. 

In 2007, John Danks was pretty awful. The Sox pretty much shut him down at the beginning of September. He came back the next season a changed man. Missing that September "development" didn't hurt him at all. 

 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Dick Allen

[ChiSox59]

3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

That's my point. Have them for an entire season when they are supposed to be good, or have them for a month or two when they are bad. They will have almost all of next season to "get their feet wet".  To me, calling them up now is just being impatient. 

 

We're on the exact same page.  

[yesterday333]

28 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I know.  He's been pretty good in AAA.  But his stats are pretty meh, and its a perfect excuse to keep him in AAA.  If he were making mincemeat of the league, it'd be a little harder to spin the story.

I could be wrong, and we'll see Kopech and Eloy soon.  But I think its pretty obvious what the Sox plan is, and I for one absolutely love it.  

I think ptatc's problem is that you are looking for an excuse to keep him in AAA. We should be doing whatever is best for his development, whether it be keeping him in AAA or moving him up to the bigs. We shouldn't be looking for reasons to keep him down... If he has more to learn in AAA great keep him there, if he is ready for the bigs he should be moved up at the next service time benchmark.

[chitownsportsfan]

2 minutes ago, yesterday333 said:

I think ptatc's problem is that you are looking for an excuse to keep him in AAA. We should be doing whatever is best for his development, whether it be keeping him in AAA or moving him up to the bigs. We shouldn't be looking for reasons to keep him down... If he has more to learn in AAA great keep him there, if he is ready for the bigs he should be moved up at the next service time benchmark.

Problem is that's next year.  They are well past Super 2 deadline by now.

If the Sox braintrust, scouts, instructors, GM, VP, all the way up to JR, determine he's read for the big leagues this season but keep him down for service time reasons -- I for one will be disappointed.  It's a hard bridge to sell, at least to me, that the extra year of control 7 years from now is more important than his immediate development.

[Jake]

40 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

That's my point. Have them for an entire season when they are supposed to be good, or have them for a month or two when they are bad. They will have almost all of next season to "get their feet wet".  To me, calling them up now is just being impatient. 

In 2007, John Danks was pretty awful. The Sox pretty much shut him down at the beginning of September. He came back the next season a changed man. Missing that September "development" didn't hurt him at all. 

 

I find this to be a strange example. To me, the Danks rookie experience is an example of how some players need to take some (or a lot) of lumps in MLB before they're ready.

[Bob Sacamano]

They have good enough baseball reasons to leave him down like working on control, working on whatever secondary pitches he has been working on, etc.

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, yesterday333 said:

I think ptatc's problem is that you are looking for an excuse to keep him in AAA. We should be doing whatever is best for his development, whether it be keeping him in AAA or moving him up to the bigs. We shouldn't be looking for reasons to keep him down... If he has more to learn in AAA great keep him there, if he is ready for the bigs he should be moved up at the next service time benchmark.

The next service time benchmark is late next April.  

I've already laid out the reasons why I'd keep him down.  On a whole, he has been less than dominate at AAA, is still young, and needs to throw more strikes.  Plenty of reasons why he shouldn't be in the bigs. 

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I think when it gets to be a month or two, at this stage of the rebuild, you should keep an eye on service time, it's silly not to. There are situations you can't say no, but IMO, we aren't close. Now it is all about hurting his feelings or pissing off a fanbase that is sick of losing almost every night. I think a few wins here and there will quiet the calls for Kopech and Jimenez.

I agree with any fan base issues. That shouldhave no bearing on the decision.

[35thstreetswarm]

I think the "player's development is all that matters" mantra is focused on the wrong question.  Not to sound harsh and uncaring, but these guys are not our children.  They're effectively employees of the Chicago White Sox organization -- the team I cheer for.  The relevant question for me (and I think most fans) therefore isn't what's "best for their development" as individual players in some abstract sense (if that's even possible to quantify).  The question is what's best for the team, and issues like team control, the fanbase, etc. all factor into that.  

"What's best for the player" and "what's best for the team" are overlapping but not identical questions.  Harming a player's development more than likely harms the team.  So you would probably never do that.  But let's say you could make a decision that presented a moderate risk of delaying a star player reaching his peak by one month, but ensured team control of that player in his prime for one year.  You would be prioritizing the team over the player's development by making that decision, and you would do it every time.

I think we're pretty close to that hypothetical here.  #team2019

[Superstar Lamar]

how many innings is he expected to throw this year.  He is likely to be shut down before the season ends which means if you bring him up you probably only get two months out of him anyway

[ptatc]

24 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

I think the "player's development is all that matters" mantra is focused on the wrong question.  Not to sound harsh and uncaring, but these guys are not our children.  They're effectively employees of the Chicago White Sox organization -- the team I cheer for.  The relevant question for me (and I think most fans) therefore isn't what's "best for their development" as individual players in some abstract sense (if that's even possible to quantify).  The question is what's best for the team, and issues like team control, the fanbase, etc. all factor into that.  

"What's best for the player" and "what's best for the team" are overlapping but not identical questions.  Harming a player's development more than likely harms the team.  So you would probably never do that.  But let's say you could make a decision that presented a moderate risk of delaying a star player reaching his peak by one month, but ensured team control of that player in his prime for one year.  You would be prioritizing the team over the player's development by making that decision, and you would do it every time.

I think we're pretty close to that hypothetical here.  #team2019

While all true. Sometimes to make the team the best in the lo g term you need to do whats best for the player. 

Any business will be better if they help the employees to advance their skills and performance.

[Two-Gun Pete]

Yeah, I've pretty much have had my fill of SPs walking the yard, just as I've had my fill of watching youngsters squander their controllable years while they flail away. Like it or not, this is a mid-market team that can ill-afford to develop players only to have them sign elsewhere when they hit FA, OR to have youngsters struggle here when they could have worked out their issues in Charlotte or Birmingham.

 

I have zero need or want to see Kopech up here until he gets his BB/9 down, and he can reliably get into the 6th & 7th innings with regularity. YMMV.

[oldsox]

16 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Yeah, I've pretty much have had my fill of SPs walking the yard, just as I've had my fill of watching youngsters squander their controllable years while they flail away. Like it or not, this is a mid-market team that can ill-afford to develop players only to have them sign elsewhere when they hit FA, OR to have youngsters struggle here when they could have worked out their issues in Charlotte or Birmingham.

 

I have zero need or want to see Kopech up here until he gets his BB/9 down, and he can reliably get into the 6th & 7th innings with regularity. YMMV.

Second para says it all.  Kopech needs consecutive starts at Charlotte to show he is ready.  Up to him.

[ptatc]

29 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Yeah, I've pretty much have had my fill of SPs walking the yard, just as I've had my fill of watching youngsters squander their controllable years while they flail away. Like it or not, this is a mid-market team that can ill-afford to develop players only to have them sign elsewhere when they hit FA, OR to have youngsters struggle here when they could have worked out their issues in Charlotte or Birmingham.

 

I have zero need or want to see Kopech up here until he gets his BB/9 down, and he can reliably get into the 6th & 7th innings with regularity. YMMV.

He has always had a high walk rate and with his pitching probably always will. So if people are waiting for that they may be waiting for years.

[iamshack]

On 6/12/2018 at 10:22 AM, kwolf68 said:

Walking well over 5 per 9 with an ERA pushing 5.00. If he's close I would hate to see someone far. Kopech is on fast track to the bullpen with that command. The Sale trade NEEDS to happen for us and so far early returns cast doubt on how much the Sox will get out of this. NO DOUBT Moncada and Kopech have supreme talent, but also have some serious flaws in their games. 

While having the high profile prospects from the Sale trade become productive MLB players would be beneficial, this really is not how we need to look at the rebuild. We need enough guys to succeed out of the whole, but certainly none from any particular trade.  That is meaningless. 

[caulfield12]

5 hours ago, iamshack said:

While having the high profile prospects from the Sale trade become productive MLB players would be beneficial, this really is not how we need to look at the rebuild. We need enough guys to succeed out of the whole, but certainly none from any particular trade.  That is meaningless. 

See the Indians.   They made some pretty bad trades over the years when they were rebuilding (2001-2002 and after 2007), but the majority of talent was signed out of Latin America or drafted/developed, with a few exceptions (such as Carlos Carrasco as part of the Cliff Lee to Philly deal).

I'd really attribute 90% of it to Antonetti's "savvy."

 

[Two-Gun Pete]

5 hours ago, ptatc said:

He has always had a high walk rate and with his pitching probably always will. So if people are waiting for that they may be waiting for years.

Well, couple things about that:

1. Kopech's all of 22 years old, so it's not like he's up against the clock. 

2. His BB/9 is Fulmer-esque, but his strand rate, and LD% also scream out that he's nowhere near ready. In other words, he's getting hit when he isn't walking the yard.

Take a look @  his fangraphs. The kid simply isn't ready, full stop. Bringing him up until he works through some of his difficulties would be stupid, IMO.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Just now, Two-Gun Pete said:

Well, couple things about that:

1. Kopech's all of 22 years old, so it's not like he's up against the clock. 

2. His BB/9 is Fulmer-esque, but his strand rate, and LD% also scream out that he's nowhere near ready. In other words, he's getting hit when he isn't walking the yard.

Take a look @  his fangraphs. The kid simply isn't ready, full stop. Bringing him up until he works through some of his difficulties would be stupid, IMO.

Yeah, we certainly wouldn't want him screwing up our playoff push this year. Better off letting him continue to be frustrated at being stuck in AAA and let him stew on that for another few months during these precious games.

[Southwest Sider]

26 minutes ago, ChiliIrishHammock24 said:

Yeah, we certainly wouldn't want him screwing up our playoff push this year. Better off letting him continue to be frustrated at being stuck in AAA and let him stew on that for another few months during these precious games.

I don't think he's stewing. He had plenty of great quotes over the offseason regarding where he stands in the organization. Paraphrasing here, but stuff along the lines of "Im going to work on my craft", "I dont mind playing in the minors because I'm not ready", and "If they do call me up, Ill be ready for it". 

I don't think he expects that it's his time yet, and any struggles he's having are most likely purely developmental rather than him being "bored". All this boredom nonsense is getting thrown around way too much with Kopech and Eloy. This is Eloy's first full season above A ball. Kopech is in the middle of his 2nd season above A ball. These guys simply aren't ready. Eloy's not bored, he's slumping like all hitters do. Now he needs to prove he can make the necessary adjustments in AA, get hot again, and crush his way into AAA. Kopech isn't bored, he's just too wild still and has a lot yet to prove in AAA. He absolutely has to stop walking people, and I highly doubt his wildness is caused by an underlying anger that he's still in Charlotte and not in Chicago. MK seems too mentally grounded to have a bother like that. 

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Just now, South Sider said:

I don't think he's stewing. He had plenty of great quotes over the offseason regarding where he stands in the organization. Paraphrasing here, but stuff along the lines of "Im going to work on my craft", "I dont mind playing in the minors because I'm not ready", and "If they do call me up, Ill be ready for it". 

I don't think he expects that it's his time yet, and any struggles he's having are most likely purely developmental rather than him being "bored". All this boredom nonsense is getting thrown around way too much with Kopech and Eloy. This is Eloy's first full season above A ball. Kopech is in the middle of his 2nd season above A ball. These guys simply aren't ready. Eloy's not bored, he's slumping like all hitters do. Now he needs to prove he can make the necessary adjustments in AA, get hot again, and crush his way into AAA. Kopech isn't bored, he's just too wild still and has a lot yet to prove in AAA. He absolutely has to stop walking people, and I highly doubt his wildness is caused by an underlying anger that he's still in Charlotte and not in Chicago. MK seems too mentally grounded to have a bother like that. 

I'm not basing my interpretation of Kopech being frustrated with AAA on anything but his Instagram Live videos that I skim through, and someone almost always asks him when he's going to get to Chicago and on more than 1 occasion I've seen his body language become annoyed and if I recall correctly he even shrugged one time recently and said "who knows" while exhaling, before catching himself and then going on about when it's his time, it's his time.

It's that in which I get the sense that he is frustrated or annoyed, because I've more or less seen it. Can't say the same about Eloy.