Immigration thread

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, StrangeSox said:

It's only going to get worse when the climate crisis kicks into high gear imo. We'll see some Children of Men style stuff. Italy's recent elections resulted in coalition of right wing and some explicitly pro-fascist groups coming into power already. Hungary's gone full fasc, too.

 

Meanwhile, the administration is again going on TV and lying about their own policies. Also, comparing their child concentration camps to....how we hold chattel live stock? And they think this is a favorable comparison?

 

 

According to Tucker Carlson, unless it's on Fox News, it's fake news. Democrat law obviously. Signed by George W. Bush. Nothing they can do about it, just because there was something they were doing different about it, doesn't mean they actually can. 

These people are scumbag liars. The problem is MSM can't attack him for this yuge lie or Trump wins again. It's about time some people with Rs after their name speak up and call a spade a spade.

If he is so fixated on his campaign promises, give us the great cheap health care that will be available for everyone, and if you need that stupid wall built, call Mexico, that was the promise as to who would pay for it, believe me.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Dick Allen

[RockRaines]

13 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

According to Tucker Carlson, unless it's on Fox News, it's fake news. Democrat law obviously. Signed by George W. Bush. Nothing they can do about it, just because there was something they were doing different about it, doesn't mean they actually can. 

These people are scumbag liars. The problem is MSM can't attack him for this yuge lie or Trump wins again. It's about time some people with Rs after their name speak up and call a spade a spade.

If he is so fixated on his campaign promises, give us the great cheap health care that will be available for everyone, and if you need that stupid wall built, call Mexico, that was the promise as to who would pay for it, believe me.

Actual conservatives have to stand up against this horrible regime.  They wont though because they are fucking cowards.

[Soxbadger]

2 minutes ago, RockRaines said:

Actual conservatives have to stand up against this horrible regime.  They wont though because they are fucking cowards.

 

There really is no hiding this time. This is being done to children and families, you either are for it or youre against it. Maybe they will grow backbones and stand up their dear Furher. Or maybe like Dennis Green said "they are who we thought they were."

[RockRaines]

1 minute ago, Soxbadger said:

 

There really is no hiding this time. This is being done to children and families, you either are for it or youre against it. Maybe they will grow backbones and stand up their dear Furher. Or maybe like Dennis Green said "they are who we thought they were."

In these times it pathetic that we cannot expect a politician to break from their dumb party to stop whats wrong.  If this was being brought up years ago, I would expect everyone to condemn and then repeal the policy.  Anyone who doesnt is a fucking coward.

[Soxbadger]

1 minute ago, RockRaines said:

In these times it pathetic that we cannot expect a politician to break from their dumb party to stop whats wrong.  If this was being brought up years ago, I would expect everyone to condemn and then repeal the policy.  Anyone who doesnt is a fucking coward.

Republican's cant stand up to Trump. Trump is who defines them. The party  stands for nothing besides for what Trump's opinion is that day. Many of the things they now cheer for go completely against what their alleged core ideas were. 

 

[southsider2k5]

14 hours ago, LittleHurt05 said:

Immigrants into Mexico are routinely abused, kidnapped, and murdered. So awful.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/06/15/immigrants-mexico-abused-kidnapped/85798440/

So let's do some unpacking here.

First off, let's quit pretending that these issues are new.  Right off of the bat the last Presidential administration went to court to defend the idea that illegals could be held indefinitely and without contact of lawyers and loved ones in detention centers without any legal rights.  People were held for years without hearings, or even the government acknowledging that these people were being held.  Even if you don't want to buy into what the right wing machine is putting out there in these regards you can look up PBS Frontline episodes on immigration over the years, and you will see that this goes back a long way.

That said, if Trump really wanted these policies changed, he would have.  The man picked right up with the last President's frequent usage of the Executive Order as a means of fiat legislation making.  He has not hesitated for a second to use EO's to do whatever he feels like.  He has also not hesitated in making a public mockery of the law, the legal community, and its enforcements whenever it was against a belief he held, so I don't believe for a second the crap about it being a law and order thing.  If he really felt the policies were unjust and needed to be changed, at the very least we'd be getting a twitter fit about them.

[StrangeSox]

5 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

Italy's recent elections resulted in coalition of right wing and some explicitly pro-fascist groups coming into power already.

 

e.g.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Anne Coulter is such a wonderful woman. Here's what she has to say about the kids separated from their parents:

 

“These child actors weeping and crying on all the other networks 24/7 right now—do not fall for it, Mr. President,

[StrangeSox]

18 minutes ago, raBBit said:

I remember talking about how the EOs and spying apparatus the Obama admin used was bad a precedent to for the Obama admin to set and it fell on deaf ears. In comes Trump lol.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

 

monsters

 

 

 

 

 

[BigSqwert]

Seems like the 2nd amendment was actually created for a crisis caused by the government, like this one.

[StrangeSox]

10 minutes ago, BigSqwert said:

Seems like the 2nd amendment was actually created for a crisis caused by the government, like this one.

here's a joke from somewhat notable lawyer and fierce free speech advocate Popehat

 

 

 

 

 

An 8 month old. Telling parents kids are going to "the showers" and then they disappear, potentially completely lost track of. No plans at all on how to reunite them in the future.

This is torture that will do life-long mental damage to these children, to infants. And it's all 100% deliberate policy by the administration so they can extract political concessions to build a stupid fucking wall and drastically cut down on legal immigration.

 

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by StrangeSox

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

So let's do some unpacking here.

First off, let's quit pretending that these issues are new.  Right off of the bat the last Presidential administration went to court to defend the idea that illegals could be held indefinitely and without contact of lawyers and loved ones in detention centers without any legal rights.  People were held for years without hearings, or even the government acknowledging that these people were being held.  Even if you don't want to buy into what the right wing machine is putting out there in these regards you can look up PBS Frontline episodes on immigration over the years, and you will see that this goes back a long way.

That said, if Trump really wanted these policies changed, he would have.  The man picked right up with the last President's frequent usage of the Executive Order as a means of fiat legislation making.  He has not hesitated for a second to use EO's to do whatever he feels like.  He has also not hesitated in making a public mockery of the law, the legal community, and its enforcements whenever it was against a belief he held, so I don't believe for a second the crap about it being a law and order thing.  If he really felt the policies were unjust and needed to be changed, at the very least we'd be getting a twitter fit about them.

But that still doesn’t address the current situation, whether you blame Bush or Obama, there’s no way that the majority of lifelong “Colin Powell/compassionate conservatives” can feel comfortable with a policy that’s deliberately hurting infants and children in order to pander to not the better angels of our natures but the basest/most divisive ones.

I don’t know how any Christian Republicans could support this either...unless they simply choose to throw out the entire New Testament in their reading of the Bible.  

Edited June 18, 2018 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

But that still doesn’t address the current situation, whether you blame Bush or Obama, there’s no way that the majority of lifelong “Colin Powell/compassionate conservatives” can feel comfortable with a policy that’s deliberately hurting infants and children in order to pander to not the better angels of our natures but the basest/most divisive ones.

I don’t know how any Christian Republicans could support this either...unless they simply choose to throw out the entire New Testament in their reading of the Bible.  

None of this post actually addresses the situation at hand.  Mine at least provided context.

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

None of this post actually addresses the situation at hand.  Mine at least provided context.

I guess that’s the point then, if politicians no longer have such a thing as a moral compass, then what hope is there?

Short of a major world conflict (Trump certainly doesn’t have the ability or desire to unite anyone), the country’s hopelessly divided.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, caulfield12 said:

I guess that’s the point then, if politicians no longer have such a thing as a moral compass, then what hope is there?

Short of a major world conflict (Trump certainly doesn’t have the ability or desire to unite anyone), the country’s hopelessly divided.

If the standard is that a President does something about immigration, the last president to have a conscious was actually Ronald Reagan. Every other President since has punted on the issue.

[caulfield12]

Trump has also succeeded at politicizing the intelligence community...between Hayden and Brennan, nobody is particularly happy about this new development.  Rogers (NSA) has been throwing his opinions out there too, but to a lesser extent.

[greg775]

Could we impeach Trump for his treatment of those innocent kids? If we all staged nationwide sit ins or something could we force him to resign? Talk of him winning the Nobel Peace Prize should be tossed into the dumpster. Save those babies!

 

[BigHurt3515]

I'm sure the whole story is being told through the media.... Like always...

 

Don't come here illegally.. 

[Soxbadger]

20 minutes ago, BigHurt3515 said:

I'm sure the whole story is being told through the media.... Like always...

 

Don't come here illegally.. 

If youre cool with this that is fine. But legality is a matter of interpretation. People can legally seek asylum in the United States. 

That being said, even a child that has parents who entered illegally does not deserve this type of treatment. This issue is not debatable. If you believe that children should be forcefully separated from their parents for an undetermined amount of time because of invisible lines in the sand, you are a terrible person.

Its really that simple, and that has nothing to do with what the "media" says. It has to do with what you believe.

And while the comparison to Auschwitz is hyperbole, Nazi's didnt start with furnaces. They started by blaming Jews for things like "taking their Jobs" or "losing WWI". They then created rules that made them second class citizens, etc. I mean at the end, the Nazi's were just saying things like "dont be a jew" or "dont come here illegally".

The path to the chambers is paved with the normalization of abhorrence. I will never let people forget what you said, that is the price of your opinion.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Soxbadger

[BigHurt3515]

1 minute ago, Soxbadger said:

If youre cool with this that is fine. But legality is a matter of interpretation. People can legally seek asylum in the United States. 

That being said, even a child that has parents who entered illegally does not deserve this type of treatment. This issue is not debatable. If you believe that children should be forcefully separated from their parents for an undetermined amount of time, because of invisible lines in the sand, you are a terrible person.

Its really that simple, and that has nothing to do with what the "media" says. It has to do with what you believe.

And while the comparison to Auschwitz is hyperbole, Nazi's didnt start with furnaces. They started by blaming Jews for things like "taking their Jobs" or "losing WWII". They then created rules that made them second class citizens, etc. I mean at the end, the Nazi's were just saying things like "dont be a jew" or "dont come here illegally".

The path to the chambers is paved with the normalization of abhorrence. I will never let people forget what you said, that is the price of your opinion.

No I am not, but thank you. Like I said there is probably more to this than what the media presents. Children are taken away from their American parents every single day in the US when they have done something illegal. And I am sure a lot of those kids are put in worse positions then these kids are in that we are seeing a very small portion of. 

 

Comparing this to concentration camps is just asinine in every way. 

[Soxbadger]

14 minutes ago, BigHurt3515 said:

No I am not, but thank you. Like I said there is probably more to this than what the media presents. Children are taken away from their American parents every single day in the US when they have done something illegal. And I am sure a lot of those kids are put in worse positions then these kids are in that we are seeing a very small portion of. 

 

Comparing this to concentration camps is just asinine in every way. 

 

No you are a terrible person. DCFS doesnt take children away from parents because they went from Indiana to Illinois. You have no clue what you are talking about with DCFS. Its really hard for DCFS to take a child away, if anything you would be shocked how had it is for a parent to lose their child.

You clearly have no idea about history because this is exactly how Nazi Germany started. 

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005151

Quote

After the Nazi party achieved power in Germany in 1933, its state-sponsored racism led to anti-Jewish legislation, economic boycotts, and the violence of the Kristallnacht ("Night of Broken Glass") pogroms, all of which aimed to systematically isolate Jews from society and drive them out of the country.

Quote

  The Nazis first established ghettos (enclosed areas designed to isolate and control the Jews) in the Generalgouvernement (a territory in central and eastern Poland overseen by a German civilian government) and the Warthegau (an area of western Poland annexed to Germany). Polish and western European Jews were deported to these ghettos where they lived in overcrowded and unsanitary conditions with inadequate food.

So yes its comparable to the ideas of the Nazi's in 1933. Like I said, they didnt start with furnaces. They started by state-sponsored racism and deportation. If you cant see the parallels, thats on you. Ironically, the Nazi's actually didnt start separating families until much later in the holocaust, so if anything your supporting something worse than what the Nazi's started with.

And yes you are a terrible person for supporting children being forcefully removed from their parents. That is just a fact, you should at least own your horribleness. 

 

(Edit)

And if youre going to try and argue, at least try not to make false comparisons. I never said it was similar to "concentration camps", I said that the path to the concentration camps started with similar behavior. That is a fact, its not an argument. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Soxbadger

[BigHurt3515]

Going from Illinois to Indiana isn't illegal is it? I said when they do something illegal. Come on man

I am not a horrible person and these kids aren't being taken forcefully, but continue to believe everything you read in the media.

I am taking this from someone else but I think it explains things well. 

Their parents broke the law with their children under their care. By law, they must be detained. The parents are well aware of the consequences which could arise from their premeditated actions. They took their chances anyway, got caught and now them AND their children are paying the price as a result. That's the game the parents chose to play.

It is the law (stemming from 1997 www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/illegal-immigration-enforcement-separating-kids-at-border/) that minors are released in the U.S., while parents do not have the same rights under the law. What's more, our previous president enacted more of the same policy in 2014.
That is what's being followed right now.

Let us also remember that typically, all of this is solved in the same day. The migrants plead guilty, are sentenced to time served and released. It's those seeking asylum which extends the stay.

Important thing to note as well. Crossing the border illegally is NOT the proper way to seek asylum. First, such people should make their asylum claim in the first country where they feel safe, i.e., Mexico or some other country they are traversing to get here. Second, if for some reason they feel threatened literally everywhere besides the United States, they should show up at a port of entry and make their claim at that location rather than crossing the border illegally.

I'm not sure how our border security is supposed to otherwise prepare for their arrival. It isn't a hotel and these folks aren't making reservations beforehand. They obviously need to be kept in a confined and easily monitored area while arrangements are made to get them in-touch with a family member in the US... etc... The parents are being detained until they solve their legal issues. The HHS and ICE shelters have a finite amount of space.

Of course, I would love for every child to have more amenities in the meantime. Maybe we can extend funding to these shelters in order to make them more "cozy". Maybe congress can pass policies which keep families together somehow (which I'll get to more). However, these are the realities of the situation. The way the law is written, the parents are guilty of a crime and the kids are (in-turn) stranded in a sort of "limbo" until that legal process and/or further plans for the child are worked out. You have to hold onto the kids. You're not going to just detain the parent throughout their legal process and let a child stroll on out into the world with no plans in place. That would be far worse.

Let us also note - If they were with their parents, they would still be sheltered by the HHS or ICE. They have shelter, beds, food and water. I'm sure it's an unpleasant emotional experience being separated from their mother and/or father. However, that's the situation their parents decided to take them into.

Obviously, the situation isn't ideal and is stressful for anyone involved. It's a shitty situation. The children's parents put them in a bad (and VERY temporary, I mind you) situation and perhaps the logistics within the process isn't perfect. However, the children receive all necessary amenities. Shelter, sleep, food and water are all provided.

So far as the negative effects of being separated from their parents. That's getting into an area that is hard to quantify in a meaningful way towards this particular debate. Of course, this whole situation is as emotionally intense, serves to create potential trauma and is as physically exhausting as you can possibly get. These kids are being dragged by their parents through a fucking desert, in (I would imagine) horrific conditions. In order to illegally cross the border into one of the most powerful nations in the world. Now their parents are detained by the United States government and they're stuck in limbo waiting out a legal process which they're far too young to grasp, in all likelihood. The gravity of that situation is as heavy as it gets. Then, this isn't even taking into account who is responsible for creating the distress. I would say, the parents. You may disagree, cool. I'm sure there's a lot of emotional distress for the children of US citizens that are arrested as well. Does that mean we don't hold them accountable for the laws they've broken?

Even if the plan goes perfectly, this is an incredibly intense and potentially dangerous (and illegal) situation that these parents are taking their children into. However, the United States government did not enter these children into this situation. These children were dropped into the laps of our government, unwillingly - now they're trying to figure out how to best go about all of this.

Weeks ago, when these groups in search of asylum were making the trek here. It was on the news and touched on by the current administration. One of the concerns raised WAS that the facilities we have are limited and taking all of these groups in throughout the court process (as opposed to the usual 24 hour situation... plead guilty, sentenced to time served and released... etc...) would prove difficult. Our facilities were never supposed to house nearly 2,000 children arriving within six weeks of each other, that have to stay for 20+ days while their parents attempt to go through an asylum process. Which (as mentioned) was gone about by their parents, in an illegal fashion from the beginning. This could have been avoided by the parents. 

In the end... congress can fix this. Congress can change the rules so the Flores consent decree will no longer apply, and it can appropriate more money for family shelters at the border. This is an obvious thing to do that would eliminate the tension between enforcing our laws and keeping family units together. The Trump administration is throwing as many resources as it can at the border to expedite the process, and it desperately wants the Flores consent decree reversed.

So much of the outrage surrounding this takes no look at the full-scope of the situation and goes straight for the easy, low-hanging melodrama. It takes a horribly complex situation and boils it down to almost cartoon-ish levels of simplicity. Which, unfortunately -- is rather par for the course from both sides.

The missing piece here is Congress, but little outrage will be directed at it.

Edited June 19, 2018 by BigHurt3515

[Soxbadger]

22 minutes ago, BigHurt3515 said:

Going from Illinois to Indiana isn't illegal is it? I said when they do something illegal. Come on man

 

The point is if Illinois made a law that said you cant come from Indiana, and someone from iIdiana was escaping the horror that is Indiana for a better life, you would think its okay to separate their children because in your mind "they are criminals."

Its interesting, the United States justice system is built on "innocent until proven guilty." So by the law, they are actually not criminals. They in fact are innocent. That is the law of the United States. So how do you respond to the fact that under the US justice system, they are in fact innocent, until conviction? They are by definition, not criminals until they are convicted of a crime.

Im not going to respond to the paragraph you didnt type unless you cite and link the source. But since its quotes the national review, Im going to guess you dont really want to show where you got it or who said it.

Think for yourself. Because in the reality it is those who support this practice who are the criminals, not the innocent people who are looking for a better life, who are made out to be criminals by unjust and unnecessary laws.

But then again, Rosa Parks was a criminal because she didnt move to the back of the bus. 

 

(edit)

 

And lets not forget. many Jews were criminals according to the Germans. So with your logic, its okay to put them in ghettos "temporarily" until a "final solution" was reached. 

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Soxbadger

[BigHurt3515]

When you are arrested and put in jail waiting for trial where would your kids go if you had no family to take care of them? They aren't going to sit in jail with you or be left alone to wonder around.

You dont want to respond to it because it is an actual rational response to the situation. It doesn't matter where it came from.

There is 0 problems wanting a better life for your family but there is a problem when it isn't done legally. There isn't anything innocent about it when they know it is illegal. It's like saying it is okay for me to go steal food from a store because I'm poor and my kids need the food for a better life.