Immigration thread

[Dick Allen]

The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. Fuck this guy. He has little children.

 

President Donald Trump’s eldest son, Donald Trump Jr., liked a tweet that suggested that children who had been separated from their parents at the U.S. southern border had been “coached” by liberals, comparing them to crisis actors.

 

You must really have to be an awful human being to be a Trump. I seem to recall this guy having daddy issues when his daddy wasn't around. Probably just an act.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Dick Allen

[StrangeSox]

8 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Please refer us to the law Trump admin changed. 

 

Sessions announced a "zero-tolerance" policy in April, which means everyone is criminally prosecuted which leads to family separations. No law was changed, and yet we went from official policy where we didn't deliberately separate families as a "deterrent" and in fact explicitly avoided that,  to one where we did. The Executive branch has discretion in how it executes the laws passed by Congress. In this case, they've chosen to follow this policy as a deterrent.

Are you denying that there was a policy change here?

Edited June 19, 2018 by StrangeSox

[BigHurt3515]

26 minutes ago, RockRaines said:

Just to be clear.  In your opinion, there isnt a better option than putting kids in cages away from their parents?

Not sure I ever said that. I have no problem with them being away from their parents as they are going through a legal process. And I'm not even sure how long the kids are being contained there? Is it just a holding for a few hours or a day before they send them to the centers they have with food and beds and school?

There is a better way to do I'm sure. It sucks the kids have to go through this because of their dumbass parents who bring them here illegally or who send them with other people to get around a loophole. 

22 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

big difference in putting kids in foster care and putting them in a repurposed walmart or a tent city with direct orders not to comfort or interact with the young children.  

Not all foster care is great and they are still be separated from their parents.

19 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

They don't need to be separated. They could easily hold families together for a few days during a bond hearing or any expedited judicial process.

The policy implementation is purposefully horrendous to be a deterrent. Which of the type of thing horrible people like you defend.

They could yes but that is not how it works. If you go to jail your kid does not go with you while you wait for a bond hearing. 

Dont come here illegally. Do it the correct way and everything is fine.

[Kyyle23]

1 minute ago, BigHurt3515 said:

Not sure I ever said that. I have no problem with them being away from their parents as they are going through a legal process. And I'm not even sure how long the kids are being contained there? Is it just a holding for a few hours or a day before they send them to the centers they have with food and beds and school?

There is a better way to do I'm sure. It sucks the kids have to go through this because of their dumbass parents who bring them here illegally or who send them with other people to get around a loophole. 

Not all foster care is great and they are still be separated from their parents.

They could yes but that is not how it works. If you go to jail your kid does not go with you while you wait for a bond hearing. 

Dont come here illegally. Do it the correct way and everything is fine.

This is seriously awful justification  and you know it is.  And seeking asylum isn’t coming here illegally

[StrangeSox]

3 minutes ago, BigHurt3515 said:

Not sure I ever said that. I have no problem with them being away from their parents as they are going through a legal process. And I'm not even sure how long the kids are being contained there? Is it just a holding for a few hours or a day before they send them to the centers they have with food and beds and school?

There is a better way to do I'm sure. It sucks the kids have to go through this because of their dumbass parents who bring them here illegally or who send them with other people to get around a loophole. 

Not all foster care is great and they are still be separated from their parents.

They could yes but that is not how it works. If you go to jail your kid does not go with you while you wait for a bond hearing. 

Dont come here illegally. Do it the correct way and everything is fine.

This is the result of an intentional policy change. There is zero reason to separate these families. This isn't "how it works," it's how the Trump admin decided to make it work starting in April.

Many of these people are coming here seeking asylum, a legal process, but we've also intentionally shut down portals and refuse to process asylum claims at them, which leads to increased border crossings and then apprehensions.

There is no reason or justification to compare this to domestic jailing, which itself is an often abused and unjust process, given that we have literally decades of experience of not separating families.

[BigHurt3515]

17 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

They've already lost track of nearly 1500 migrant children as of the end of April. It's already happening, and it's only accelerating.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/federal-officials-lose-track-of-nearly-1500-migrant-children

"Federal officials lost track of nearly 1,500 migrant children last year"

That says last year not as of April. 

This isn't just a Trump thing, laws were made under Obama. Similar things happened under him as well and there wasn't a big uproar. 

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, BigHurt3515 said:

 

Dont come here illegally. Do it the correct way and everything is fine.

To apply for asylum this is the way you have to go to a port of entry or be in the US. These cases went explicitly to the port of entry and this is how the us is "deterring" them.

[StrangeSox]

9 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Where's the new law? The different between Trump and Obama admins on the border is Trump's admin is enforcing the law. Congress is the legislative branch and they need to fix the laws.

I'm sorry that you don't understand how executive discretion works, but there is nothing in the law that requires a "zero tolerance" policy. The Executive branch is given latitude in how, when and where it enforces various laws throughout the country.

There is absolutely nothing that forces the Trump administration to do this, just as there was nothing that forced that Obama or Bush or Clinton administrations. Trump's administration has deliberately implemented this policy change in order to inflict harm as a deterrent. This can be changed, right now, with an announcement from Trump or Sessions to end their policy.

Edited June 19, 2018 by StrangeSox

[RockRaines]

3 minutes ago, BigHurt3515 said:

Not sure I ever said that. I have no problem with them being away from their parents as they are going through a legal process. And I'm not even sure how long the kids are being contained there? Is it just a holding for a few hours or a day before they send them to the centers they have with food and beds and school?

There is a better way to do I'm sure. It sucks the kids have to go through this because of their dumbass parents who bring them here illegally or who send them with other people to get around a loophole. 

Dont come here illegally. Do it the correct way and everything is fine.

There is a better way to do it, yet you defend whats going on.

Kids who are as young as in diapers should fend for themselves for an unknown duration of time since their parents are legally looking for asylum... 

[RockRaines]

Ah the old policy vs law argument.  I love these talking points.  

[StrangeSox]

3 minutes ago, BigHurt3515 said:

"Federal officials lost track of nearly 1,500 migrant children last year"

That says last year not as of April. 

This isn't just a Trump thing, laws were made under Obama. Similar things happened under him as well and there wasn't a big uproar. 

Right, that article was from the end of April. They've since dramatically ramped up family separation and the rate of unaccompanied minors they're shoving into concentration camps. Odds that the number of children they've lost track of haven't increased are low.

 

This is just a Trump thing. Obama and Bush did not deliberately engage in family separation policies as a deterrent. There was coverage of the ways the Obama administration failed to handle the influx of actually unaccompanied minors back in 2014, as ss2k5 pointed out earlier. But this is different. This is a new, intentionally cruel policy that's resulting in infants being taken from parents. 

There is no excuse for this. SB is right about the kind of person that continues to support and excuse this.

[bmags]

The Obama admin followed the law and enforced the law. The Appeals court said that children could not be held in indefinite detention but made no requirement of their mothers or adults.

Quote

The policy would allow DHS to detain parents while complying with a 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals order from July 2016 that immigrant children should be released from detention as quickly as possible. That order said their parents were not required to be freed.

To comply with that order, the Obama administration implemented a policy of holding women and children at family detention centers for no more than 21 days before releasing them.

Holding mothers in prolonged detention could also strain government resources, said Randy Capps of the Migration Policy Institute, a Washington-based non-profit.

They held them for 21 days together and released them until their asylum case would be heard.

As a reminder, from President Trump, Obama was called "Deporter in Chief".

[Dick Allen]

13 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Where's the new law? The different between Trump and Obama admins on the border is Trump's admin is enforcing the law. Congress is the legislative branch and they need to fix the laws.

Where did he say new law? You won't find on his post.  He said new policy which is exactly what it is, and what you highlighted. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Dick Allen

[RockRaines]

6 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

Right, that article was from the end of April. They've since dramatically ramped up family separation and the rate of unaccompanied minors they're shoving into concentration camps. Odds that the number of children they've lost track of haven't increased are low.

 

This is just a Trump thing. Obama and Bush did not deliberately engage in family separation policies as a deterrent. There was coverage of the ways the Obama administration failed to handle the influx of actually unaccompanied minors back in 2014, as ss2k5 pointed out earlier. But this is different. This is a new, intentionally cruel policy that's resulting in infants being taken from parents. 

There is no excuse for this. SB is right about the kind of person that continues to support and excuse this.

Both Kelly and MIller were BOTH quoted as saying this is THEIR policy and its meant as a deterrent.  

[Jerksticks]

I’m against all of this but I’m also super pissed at the parents- they are not victims here at all but the kids are.   The parents aren’t some war-torn refugees.  They are trying to game the system the same way millions of others have:  cross illegallywith kid, claim asylum, and then never show up to court.   That’s been the way in for quite a while.  

 

So acting like they’ve made this million mile trek through the desert dodging land mines and accidentally crossed an invisible border illegally is complete bullshit.  These aren’t victims.  They don’t need asylum and they are more than likely using their kids or somebody’s kids as props to get released, since that’s been the word on the street for a long time.   

 

Shame on Trump and shame on these parents for putting kids in harm’s way.  Go to the ports of entry and claim your “asylum”.  

 

 

[Soxbadger]

Im not sure why people are arguing with Rabbit or Bighurt anymore. They have made their position clear. The govt is just enforcing laws. We should never question laws, all laws are just, we are just sheeple. 

What can President Trump do? He cant arbitrarily enforce the laws, he cant pardon people, he is an innocent saint who has never broken a law, who has never worked with a criminal. He cant turn a blind eye to the law or else we will dissolve in chaos.

This reminds me of the worst President ever, Abraham Lincoln. Slavery was legal, what a tyrant he was for trying to change that. The South were the real heroes because they were fighting for the law. 

[StrangeSox]

2 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

I’m against all of this but I’m also super pissed at the parents- they are not victims here at all but the kids are.   The parents aren’t some war-torn refugees.  They are trying to game the system the same way millions of others have:  cross illegallywith kid, claim asylum, and then never show up to court.   That’s been the way in for quite a while.  

 

So acting like they’ve made this million mile trek through the desert dodging land mines and accidentally crossed an invisible border illegally is complete bullshit.  These aren’t victims.  They don’t need asylum and they are more than likely using their kids or somebody’s kids as props to get released, since that’s been the word on the street for a long time.   

 

Shame on Trump and shame on these parents for putting kids in harm’s way.  Go to the ports of entry and claim your “asylum”.  

 

 

How many times does it need to be pointed out that the Trump administration is intentionally closing down these ports and turning people away from them? That they just significantly curtailed the number of people that can seek asylum?

These people have made long treks fleeing violence or economic destitution. Have some empathy, try to imagine what it'd take you to leave your entire life behind to seek asylum.

[StrangeSox]

 

2 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Wasn't there some legal loophole the Obama admin used to not separate families and then the courts overturned the loophole?

No. The "loophole" was not having a "zero-tolerance" criminal prosecution policy. This was a deliberate change enacted by Trump/Sessions in April. I linked you to the announcement.

Edited June 19, 2018 by StrangeSox

[RockRaines]

4 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

I’m against all of this but I’m also super pissed at the parents- they are not victims here at all but the kids are.   The parents aren’t some war-torn refugees.  They are trying to game the system the same way millions of others have:  cross illegallywith kid, claim asylum, and then never show up to court.   That’s been the way in for quite a while.  

 

So acting like they’ve made this million mile trek through the desert dodging land mines and accidentally crossed an invisible border illegally is complete bullshit.  These aren’t victims.  They don’t need asylum and they are more than likely using their kids or somebody’s kids as props to get released, since that’s been the word on the street for a long time.   

 

Shame on Trump and shame on these parents for putting kids in harm’s way.  Go to the ports of entry and claim your “asylum”.  

 

 

Thats fine.  Turn them away, close up shop.  Detain them together and then release them.  For those people who dont want immigrants in this country, even these are better options than whats going on.

[Soxbadger]

1 minute ago, raBBit said:

Are the families seeking asylum having the children get separated from their parents? Is it an outlier or are all families seeking asylum  at the designated ports being separated?

 

To the best of my knowledge all families are being separated when they enter the United States.

Just now, raBBit said:

Everyone needs to frame this correctly. Not all these children coming in are with their parents. 

And no one is arguing about children who arent coming with their families. If they arent with their "family" they cant be separated from them. 

If a child comes solo, they were already separated. 

[StrangeSox]

2 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Everyone needs to frame this correctly. Not all these children coming in are with their parents. 

Enough are, and they're being deliberately torn from their parents and thrown in cages as a deterrent effort. Trump today called undocumented immigrants an infestation.

[RockRaines]

The only thing I can think of is people without children dont get it.  Thats the only rationale I can come up with.

[BigHurt3515]

3 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Everyone needs to frame this correctly. Not all these children coming in are with their parents. 

Kirstjen Nielsen: So I want to be clear on a couple things. The vast majority, vast, vast, majority of the children who are in the care of HHS right now, 10,000 of the 12,000, were sent here alone by their parents.That’s when they were separated. Somehow we’veconflated everything.

 

[StrangeSox]

2 minutes ago, RockRaines said:

The only thing I can think of is people without children dont get it.  Thats the only rationale I can come up with.

I don't think that's a fair excuse. Plenty of people without children get it.

[RockRaines]

You guys are aware literally everything she said was proven to be a lie right?