Lip Man 1 Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 Didn't see this posted but Scott Merkin has said Dunning's MRI shows a moderate elbow sprain that "presently" will not require surgery. He's out 6-8 weeks and then will begin a throwing routine. Guess it could be worse but from what I've been reading usually the ultimate result is TJ surgery. Sigh... Personally if the end of the road is ultimately going to result in the surgery I'd rather they do it sooner rather than later and waste precious time. Perhaps PTAC can weigh in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 Nah, there's a good chance he can avoid surgery otherwise they wouldn't be advising this plan. The last thing they want to do is perform TJ on a guy that doesn't need it. 6-8 weeks is nothing when the timetable is 18 months with surgery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 I feel sorry for the guy. Damn. More pitcher injuries. I agree if he needs surgery, do it ASAP, but PTATC can fill us in. I trust him completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, greg775 said: I feel sorry for the guy. Damn. More pitcher injuries. I agree if he needs surgery, do it ASAP, but PTATC can fill us in. I trust him completely. You should trust the opinion of arguably the best medical staff in MLB. @ptatc knows his shit but last time I checked he hasn't personally evaluated Dunning's elbow and consulted with the Sox' medical team on a course of action. Edited June 27, 2018 by chitownsportsfan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 35 minutes ago, greg775 said: I feel sorry for the guy. Damn. More pitcher injuries. I agree if he needs surgery, do it ASAP, but PTATC can fill us in. I trust him completely. Same here. I totally read this as he's bound to have another injury in the future. Guess we'll have to wait and see how he responds to the rest? Will patiently wait for ptact's take on all this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said: Didn't see this posted but Scott Merkin has said Dunning's MRI shows a moderate elbow sprain that "presently" will not require surgery. He's out 6-8 weeks and then will begin a throwing routine. Guess it could be worse but from what I've been reading usually the ultimate result is TJ surgery. Sigh... Personally if the end of the road is ultimately going to result in the surgery I'd rather they do it sooner rather than later and waste precious time. Perhaps PTAC can weigh in. There is a good chance it will heal and not need surgery if after the 6-8 weeks it tightens up. If it heals up enough then it will be strong enough. He could always injure it again but it won't be because of it being weaker. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 Thanks pt. Sounds like he'll be fine w/out surgery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 2 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said: You should trust the opinion of arguably the best medical staff in MLB. @ptatc knows his shit but last time I checked he hasn't personally evaluated Dunning's elbow and consulted with the Sox' medical team on a course of action. Nope, I haven't I can only describe the most likely course of actions based upon public reports only because discussions with people in the profession would never occur because that would be a violation of HIPPA. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 13 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said: You should trust the opinion of arguably the best medical staff in MLB. @ptatc knows his shit but last time I checked he hasn't personally evaluated Dunning's elbow and consulted with the Sox' medical team on a course of action. It's not always best to take everything a team says at face value because they have reasons for not fully disclosing risks, outlooks, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 11 hours ago, ptatc said: Nope, I haven't I can only describe the most likely course of actions based upon public reports only because discussions with people in the profession would never occur because that would be a violation of HIPPA. ? Obviously. I think most of us are glad you do provide insight beyond the normal "arm, leg, muscle etc. injury. I always find your contributions excellent understanding the context you present them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 A sprain is technically a tear or a stretch I believe, so when he recovers, something will need to change or it seems rather likely the situation will occur again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 I hope he heals without surgery. But there is no reason to opt for TJS now. Whether he has surgery now or in August he will be out all of next season and will be back by the start of 2020. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Dick Allen said: A sprain is technically a tear or a stretch I believe, so when he recovers, something will need to change or it seems rather likely the situation will occur again. A sprain is a tear of a ligament. It just depends on the amount. If something needs to change is always a debate and part of the clinical decision process. When you sprain an ankle were you running wrong or did just happen to step on that rock and rolled your ankle? This is the dilemma. Do they need to change something in his ,mechanics, which is possible, or did he just do something on that one pitch or two pitches that caused the sprain but not a complete tear. They will go back and look at the pitches and evaluate it. In pitching more often than not, they will try to make an adjustment but it's not a given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Jake said: It's not always best to take everything a team says at face value because they have reasons for not fully disclosing risks, outlooks, etc. No doubt. Unlike football, they aren't required to say anything publically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 15 hours ago, ptatc said: There is a good chance it will heal and not need surgery if after the 6-8 weeks it tightens up. If it heals up enough then it will be strong enough. He could always injure it again but it won't be because of it being weaker. How does his injury compare to Adolfo's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Just now, maggsmaggs said: How does his injury compare to Adolfo's? Probably similar. Both were not complete tears but serious enough to require rest and inactivity for healing. The normal timeframe for tissue healing to the point of about 90% ins 6-8weeks if the tissue has the optimal environment for healing. This is why you hear that timeframe so often. Since they were both given that timeframe you can assume the injuries were fairly similar. As someone pointed out earlier, I haven't evaluated either so this is just reading between the lines of the reports both cases and using my experince of cases I've worked with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Just now, ptatc said: Probably similar. Both were not complete tears but serious enough to require rest and inactivity for healing. The normal timeframe for tissue healing to the point of about 90% ins 6-8weeks if the tissue has the optimal environment for healing. This is why you hear that timeframe so often. Since they were both given that timeframe you can assume the injuries were fairly similar. As someone pointed out earlier, I haven't evaluated either so this is just reading between the lines of the reports both cases and using my experince of cases I've worked with. Oh I know, but you just reading public information and analyzing is extremely informative. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, maggsmaggs said: Oh I know, but you just reading public information and analyzing is extremely informative. This exactly. This insight is priceless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Jake said: It's not always best to take everything a team says at face value because they have reasons for not fully disclosing risks, outlooks, etc. Sure, but in this case, again, I'm trying to use induction to the best of my ability given many variables and imperfect information -- that the Sox have zero reason to lie about this. Like, are they telling Dunning -- "hey, bruh, this is a PR move, you're really having surgery in August, don't worry about the lost time we'll make it up down the road". I find that highly implausible. What I do find plausible is that given what ptatc has said and given the Sox' public statements that this is the best course of action as determined by their medical team and that they have honestly relayed that info to the fans. Edited June 28, 2018 by chitownsportsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 The typical result of an elbow sprain is definitely NOT Tommy John man... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 24 minutes ago, Richie said: The typical result of an elbow sprain is definitely NOT Tommy John man... Just depends on the degree of the sprain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 41 minutes ago, ptatc said: Just depends on the degree of the sprain. Not really. Rarely would a sprain lead to Tommy John. It just needs healing time - no different any other sprain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 25 minutes ago, Richie said: Not really. Rarely would a sprain lead to Tommy John. It just needs healing time - no different any other sprain. Sprains have varying degrees. A first degree or mild sprain will rarely need surgery. A second degree or moderate sprain will sometimes need surgery based on the healing after 6-8 weeks. A third degree or severe sprain will almost always require surgery as there isn't enough of the ligament connected to heal properly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 9 minutes ago, ptatc said: Sprains have varying degrees. A first degree or mild sprain will rarely need surgery. A second degree or moderate sprain will sometimes need surgery based on the healing after 6-8 weeks. A third degree or severe sprain will almost always require surgery as there isn't enough of the ligament connected to heal properly. I am a trainer myself and my sister is an orthopedic surgeon. I am familiar with the varying degrees of sprains. I am saying that this diagnosis makes it obvious that he does not have any tearing or a rupture. Anything less than a third degree sprain is simply a "stretched" ligament with full function intact. Seeing that Dunning has received the 6-8 week diagnosis... With this being his first UCL injury -- it would be a complete shock if he wound up needing surgery. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 3 hours ago, Richie said: I am a trainer myself and my sister is an orthopedic surgeon. I am familiar with the varying degrees of sprains. I am saying that this diagnosis makes it obvious that he does not have any tearing or a rupture. Anything less than a third degree sprain is simply a "stretched" ligament with full function intact. Seeing that Dunning has received the 6-8 week diagnosis... With this being his first UCL injury -- it would be a complete shock if he wound up needing surgery. This is true to an extent but the second degree will have tears as well. That is what heals. Are you athletic trainer in Michigan? Better than in Illinois with our practice act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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