KW on the state of the rebuild

[Thad Bosley]

5 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

I don't know that I have ever seen someone more jealous of someone else's success.

You are well on your way to fulfilling this month’s quota of meaningless, useless, and totally throw-away comments you are evidently expected to post.  Nice work.  

[The Ginger Kid]

This is not "Rick Renteria's coaching staff" -- he inherited these guys. 

[southsider2k5]

41 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

You are well on your way to fulfilling this month’s quota of meaningless, useless, and totally throw-away comments you are evidently expected to post.  Nice work.  

Every single post you make about ownership is hateful and mentions the bottom line.  You are obsessed with what they make. It is really obvious that it bothers you massively, otherwise it wouldn't be on your mind with pretty much every post you make here.

[BlackSox13]

I'm still in awe at how some fans don't understand how a true rebuild works. It's about filling the organization from top to bottom with as much talent and depth as possible to develop them and see who fills the gaps. Then, once the core is established and the gaps have been exposed the team signs and or trades to fill those gaps. 

Funny how the Sox front office was wrong with past free agent signings and yet is criticized for not signing free agents. While I'm thinking about it off the top of my head... is anyone really dissapointed that Samardzija didn't sign an extension with the Sox or that Gordon chose the Royals or that Cespedes chose the Mets? Be glad those players did the Sox a favor by going elsewhere or the Sox would be stuck with those dead contracts. Sometimes extensions and free agent signings aren't the right choice.

Edited July 6, 2018 by BlackSox13

[Thad Bosley]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Every single post you make about ownership is hateful and mentions the bottom line.  You are obsessed with what they make. It is really obvious that it bothers you massively, otherwise it wouldn't be on your mind with pretty much every post you make here.

Not factual on any account, and as typical of you, nothing more than your usual splattering of lipstick on this pig of an ownership our beleaguered fan base has been strangled with these nearly past four decades.  

First off, nothing “hateful” coming from me, just facts fully tethered in results.  Fourth longest playoff drought in all of baseball, no playoff appearance in a decade now and none seemingly on the horizon - no die-hard White Sox fan is happy about this sad state of affairs.  

As for the “bottom line” and what “they make”, fullest of shame on you for trying to divert attention away from the “sweetheart lease deal” this owner negotiated with the State in the most obscene of ways back in the late ‘80s that guaranteed ownership maximum profits no matter if 964 people are in the stands or 30,000 - ALL AT THE EXPENSE OF ILLINOIS TAXPAYER REVENUES.  

That’s the “bottom line”, buddy, and continued shame on you for defending the disgusting practice of this failed owner.   

[BlackSox13]

2 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

Not factual on any account, and as typical of you, nothing more than your usual splattering of lipstick on this pig of an ownership our beleaguered fan base has been strangled with these nearly past four decades.  

First off, nothing “hateful” coming from me, just facts fully tethered in results.  Fourth longest playoff drought in all of baseball, no playoff appearance in a decade now and none seemingly on the horizon - no die-hard White Sox fan is happy about this sad state of affairs.  

As for the “bottom line” and what “they make”, fullest of shame on you for trying to divert attention away from the “sweetheart lease deal” this owner negotiated with the State in the most obscene of ways back in the late ‘80s that guaranteed ownership maximum profits no matter if 964 people are in the stands or 30,000 - ALL AT THE EXPENSE OF ILLINOIS TAXPAYER REVENUES.  

That’s the “bottom line”, buddy, and continued shame on you for defending the disgusting practice of this failed owner.   

You sure about that first comment?

[BlackSox13]

I think the Sox need to invest in rebuild counselors for the fans.

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

Not factual on any account, and as typical of you, nothing more than your usual splattering of lipstick on this pig of an ownership our beleaguered fan base has been strangled with these nearly past four decades.  

First off, nothing “hateful” coming from me, just facts fully tethered in results.  Fourth longest playoff drought in all of baseball, no playoff appearance in a decade now and none seemingly on the horizon - no die-hard White Sox fan is happy about this sad state of affairs.  

As for the “bottom line” and what “they make”, fullest of shame on you for trying to divert attention away from the “sweetheart lease deal” this owner negotiated with the State in the most obscene of ways back in the late ‘80s that guaranteed ownership maximum profits no matter if 964 people are in the stands or 30,000 - ALL AT THE EXPENSE OF ILLINOIS TAXPAYER REVENUES.  

That’s the “bottom line”, buddy, and continued shame on you for defending the disgusting practice of this failed owner.   

In a post about how you aren't obsessed, you still had to go back to the money the team makes. Yep, not obsessed at all.  Boy you showed me.

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, BlackSox13 said:

You sure about that first comment?

Yep.

[Sarava]

1 hour ago, BlackSox13 said:

I'm still in awe at how some fans don't understand how a true rebuild works. It's about filling the organization from top to bottom with as much talent and depth as possible to develop them and see who fills the gaps. Then, once the core is established and the gaps have been exposed the team signs and or trades to fill those gaps. 

Funny how the Sox front office was wrong with past free agent signings and yet is criticized for not signing free agents. While I'm thinking about it off the top of my head... is anyone really dissapointed that Samardzija didn't sign an extension with the Sox or that Gordon chose the Royals or that Cespedes chose the Mets? Be glad those players did the Sox a favor by going elsewhere or the Sox would be stuck with those dead contracts. Sometimes extensions and free agent signings aren't the right choice.

Theo is probably considered the master in baseball at rebuilds. What is one of his big hallmarks for rebuilds? To acquire flippable assets. He does this over and over. That's what I was talking about that should have been done last winter. I'm not sure why you have trouble understanding this? 

But you have to spend some money to do that. The guys the Sox acquired last winter were all garbage reclamation projects on the cheap. Yes sometimes those types of signings or acquisitions do work out. But usually they don't.

And we're all going to the results of them not doing that this past winter when the trading deadline comes. And the 'rebuild experts' like yourself will be scratching your heads wondering why the Sox can't get anything decent back in trades.

[BlackSox13]

21 minutes ago, Sarava said:

Theo is probably considered the master in baseball at rebuilds. What is one of his big hallmarks for rebuilds? To acquire flippable assets. He does this over and over. That's what I was talking about that should have been done last winter. I'm not sure why you have trouble understanding this? 

But you have to spend some money to do that. The guys the Sox acquired last winter were all garbage reclamation projects on the cheap. Yes sometimes those types of signings or acquisitions do work out. But usually they don't.

And we're all going to the results of them not doing that this past winter when the trading deadline comes. And the 'rebuild experts' like yourself will be scratching your heads wondering why the Sox can't get anything decent back in trades.

Funny how you took my post personally and yet it wasn't directed at you. But hey, whatever suits your narrative.

Please enlighten " rebuild experts " like myself ( your words, not mine) as to whom the Sox should have signed last winter. While you're at it go ahead and site for how much they could have signed for, their interest in the Sox, their agent and what team would be interested in them now.

I actually do agree that Theo is good with rebuilds and that signing flippable players is part of the rebuild process. Flippable assets is only one aspect of a rebuild though. What's really important is trading valuable assets ( Sale,Q, Eaton), scouting, drafting and developing players acquired through the draft process and trades. Flipping players is an augmentation of the rebuild process but not the most important aspect of the rebuild. There's a much bigger picture for a rebuild than just signing flipppable assets which apparently is the focus of your narrative.

[Sarava]

I didn't say flipping is the most important part and I'm not sure why you're implying that I did. I just wish they had made an effort at acquiring flippable assets last winter. I'm not wasting my time going through the guys who were available and what they could of signed for. There's plenty of guys that are flip candidates every winter.

Again, I don't know the Sox reasons for not doing that. They might have been purposely keeping the team bad for another high pick. It might of been to save cash. Or it might have been to keep roster spots clear for the young guys. It probably was a bit of all 3 and maybe more.

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, Sarava said:

I didn't say flipping is the most important part and I'm not sure why you're implying that I did. I just wish they had made an effort at acquiring flippable assets last winter. I'm not wasting my time going through the guys who were available and what they could of signed for. There's plenty of guys that are flip candidates every winter.

Again, I don't know the Sox reasons for not doing that. They might have been purposely keeping the team bad for another high pick. It might of been to save cash. Or it might have been to keep roster spots clear for the young guys. It probably was a bit of all 3 and maybe more.

At basically every position, the White Sox either already have someone who needed playing time to see if they were going to be anything useful, or will soon need playing time. Injuries have hit a few of those spots but hopefully you'll grant that you can't predict which position they will have them at.

DH: Davidson/Delmonico
3b: Sanchez, Saladino (already traded)
SS: Anderson
2b: Moncada
1b: Abreu
CF: Tilson/Cordell/Engel/Leury
RF: Avisail Garcia
LF: Jiminez, Delmonico
SP: Giolito, Lopez, Fulmer, Kopech, Rodon, Shields already under contract.

They didn't really have anyone who was worth the time at Catcher and I even thought they'd be stupid enough to call Collins up from single-A to fill the role, but then they signed Castillo. Unfortunately there was a steroid thing there, but they did that at catcher.

In the bullpen they had room to acquire flippable guys. Hey look Soria!

With Rodon out they had room to acquire a flippable guy in the rotation too. Hey look, Miguel Gonzalez and Hector Santiago!

At the positions where they had room for those guys, where they had ample playing time, they did acquire guys who could be flipped. Elsewhere though, they had to give guys playing time to see if they could turn into anything or filter themselves out. Some of those guys (Cordell, Engel, Delmonico) are doing exactly that and filtering themselves out, where I'm more than happy to block them next year.

[Balta1701]

4 hours ago, BlackSox13 said:

Funny how you took my post personally and yet it wasn't directed at you. But hey, whatever suits your narrative.

Please enlighten " rebuild experts " like myself ( your words, not mine) as to whom the Sox should have signed last winter. While you're at it go ahead and site for how much they could have signed for, their interest in the Sox, their agent and what team would be interested in them now.

I actually do agree that Theo is good with rebuilds and that signing flippable players is part of the rebuild process. Flippable assets is only one aspect of a rebuild though. What's really important is trading valuable assets ( Sale,Q, Eaton), scouting, drafting and developing players acquired through the draft process and trades. Flipping players is an augmentation of the rebuild process but not the most important aspect of the rebuild. There's a much bigger picture for a rebuild than just signing flipppable assets which apparently is the focus of your narrative.

Also, if we're specifically talking about Theo, while we're at it we want to avoid any "Edwin Jackson" moves. 

[Dick Allen]

14 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Also, if we're specifically talking about Theo, while we're at it we want to avoid any "Edwin Jackson" moves. 

Also don't forget Theo came in 2nd place for James Shields and Anibal Sanchez. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

 

Also, if Jesse Crain passes a physical and Arrieta is a White Sox, is Theo still the boy wonder on the Northside? I don't think they win without Arrieta. 

Edited July 6, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Dam8610]

5 hours ago, Sarava said:

Theo is probably considered the master in baseball at rebuilds. What is one of his big hallmarks for rebuilds? To acquire flippable assets. He does this over and over. That's what I was talking about that should have been done last winter. I'm not sure why you have trouble understanding this? 

But you have to spend some money to do that. The guys the Sox acquired last winter were all garbage reclamation projects on the cheap. Yes sometimes those types of signings or acquisitions do work out. But usually they don't.

And we're all going to the results of them not doing that this past winter when the trading deadline comes. And the 'rebuild experts' like yourself will be scratching your heads wondering why the Sox can't get anything decent back in trades.

"Flippable assets" are typically guys that you're taking a chance on them succeeding. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Those "garbage reclamation projects" were the Sox attempt at acquiring "flippable assets", it just didn't work out for them.

[footlongcomiskeydog]

The Sox need to start making some FA moves to supplement their young core either this off-season or next. If they don't go big on a couple guys then I'm not really sure what the whole point of trading Sale, Q, and Eaton was. Anyone who thinks that this team can be built solely from the farm alone is downright delusional.

The odds of signing Machado are slim but the Sox need to be major suitors this off-season. I would also like to see them make a move for Patrick Corbin from the D-Backs. He is probably going to get a $100 million plus. Pretty steep price I know but that is the cost of doing business these days.

 

[Dam8610]

20 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

The Sox need to start making some FA moves to supplement their young core either this off-season or next. If they don't go big on a couple guys then I'm not really sure what the whole point of trading Sale, Q, and Eaton was. Anyone who thinks that this team can be built solely from the farm alone is downright delusional.

The odds of signing Machado are slim but the Sox need to be major suitors this off-season. I would also like to see them make a move for Patrick Corbin from the D-Backs. He is probably going to get a $100 million plus. Pretty steep price I know but that is the cost of doing business these days.

 

The Astros were built practically from farm alone. So were the Dodgers. It can be done. That said, adding top tier free agents does accelerate the competitive window. Signing a Machado or Arenado and a Sale would really help, but the core of the next competitive team will come from the farm system.

[Chicago White Sox]

14 hours ago, fathom said:

Absolutely agree they need experienced arms for next year. As we've seen this year, the youth can be hard to rely on to fill innings.  I could see them bringing in two...one bigger name and also bringing back Shields.

If you're bringing in two veteran starters, then you're most certainly blocking some kids.  Who do you in envision in the rotation next year?  

[footlongcomiskeydog]

1 hour ago, Dam8610 said:

The Astros were built practically from farm alone. So were the Dodgers. It can be done. That said, adding top tier free agents does accelerate the competitive window. Signing a Machado or Arenado and a Sale would really help, but the core of the next competitive team will come from the farm system.

Sure the Astros were built mainly from the farm, but it is delusional to think that the Sox can replicate that. You are assuming then that the Sox FO, scouting, and development people are as good as Houston's. The last 7 years or so provide evidence that that is simply not the case. Let me know when the Sox develop four positional players as good as Altuve, Correa, Springer, and Bregman. 

Look at the Dodgers payroll. They have definitely spent $ on pitching and  had to pony up to keep Jansen and Turner in town. They also didn't trade away their stud lefty at any point. 

I'm trying to figure out when the Sox think there competitive window should start. 2020? 2021? 2022? No one seems to know and that is scary to me. 

Edited July 6, 2018 by [email protected]

[Dick Allen]

One thing the Astros and Cubs did differently than the White Sox was they focused on position players and added pitching. The Sox have a lot more higher end pitching prospects.

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

Sure the Astros were built mainly from the farm, but it is delusional to think that the Sox can replicate that. You are assuming then that the Sox FO, scouting, and development people are as good as Houston's. The last 7 years or so provide evidence that that is simply not the case. Let me know when the Sox develop four positional players as good as Altuve, Correa, Springer, and Bregman. 

Look at the Dodgers payroll. They have definitely spent $ on pitching and  had to pony up to keep Jansen and Turner in town. They also didn't trade away their stud lefty at any point. 

I'm trying to figure out when the Sox think there competitive window should start. 2010? 2011? 2012? No one seems to know and that is scary to me. 

You never know with young players. Back in 1990, the Sox thought they would suck. They were shooting for the rebuid to mean winning when they opened their new park. It came early. Look at the Twins. They looked like they were going to be really good, then 2 years ago, awful. Last year, a nice snapback, now back to mediocre, and minor league stints for 2 guys that were supposed to be cornerstones. 

Hopefully it all works out for our guys, but you can't be sure. For a game whose numbers and projections are based on very linear things, it really isn't very linear. 

[footlongcomiskeydog]

37 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

You never know with young players. Back in 1990, the Sox thought they would suck. They were shooting for the rebuid to mean winning when they opened their new park. It came early. Look at the Twins. They looked like they were going to be really good, then 2 years ago, awful. Last year, a nice snapback, now back to mediocre, and minor league stints for 2 guys that were supposed to be cornerstones. 

Hopefully it all works out for our guys, but you can't be sure. For a game whose numbers and projections are based on very linear things, it really isn't very linear. 

The early 90s Sox made one postseason appearance. The Twins are a yo-yo and don't look close to being a real threat. That is not what the Sox are going for. The plan is to have sustained success year after year like we are seeing on the North Side. 

The Cubs tank started in 2012 and lasted 3 years. The Sox are now 1.5 years into their tank. Does anyone realistically see this team competing for a trip to the WS in 2020 without some major FA signings? Heck, we might be lucky if LuiS Robert has 100 games played in milb by then. 

 

[Dick Allen]

8 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

The early 90s Sox made one postseason appearance. The Twins are a yo-yo and don't look close to being a real threat. That is not what the Sox are going for. The plan is to have sustained success year after year like we are seeing on the North Side. 

The Cubs tank started in 2012 and lasted 3 years. The Sox are now 1.5 years into their tank. Does anyone realistically see this team competing for a trip to the WS in 2020 without some major FA signings? Heck, we might be lucky if LuiS Robert has 100 games played in milb by then. 

 

One postseason appearance when 4 teams total made it. They were in the playoffs with the current format in 1990 and 1994 if no strike.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

One postseason appearance when 4 teams total made it. They were in the playoffs with the current format in 1990 and 1994 if no strike.

And 2006.