KW on the state of the rebuild

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, greg775 said:

When and why did you reinvent yourself as a poster? You suddenly are MVP of the board after blah status.

I have my share of moves that I liked that were rotten, I was ok with the LaRoche signing because they needed a DH and 1b backup and that was garbage, although I never would have guessed that the manager couldn't control that guy.  But there was no one who liked the Samardzija and Frazier moves here less than I, and in particular the path of trying to compete using scraps. It was a terrible plan and it worked out exactly that way, repeatedly. Prior to the 2016 season I had to take a break here because no one wanted to hear how this team wasn't nearly as good as they thought they would be. They should have spent the seasons 2014-2016 rebuilding, and then they might have had enough talent that, when the 2017 and 2018 Free Agent markets had guys that were available, they might have had enough talent developed to take advantage of it, while still having Sale and Quintana around.

But anyway, you realize you just supported a person who said that signing Moustakas would have been a terrible move for the 2018 White Sox, right? Which is, as usual, the opposite of what you've been saying.

But even then there's a lesson getting lost in this thread - after the last decade, the White Sox should have learned that you can't win, or even break even, on the free agent market. You can only fill in the last pieces. You cannot put a 5th place team into 1st place on the free agent market, you can only put a 5th place team into 4th place.  For every guy you bought that was a bargain and outproduced (Moustakas has done that this year), there's a Logan Morrison who has completely fallen apart. For the people who said that the White Sox should have been "All in" on the free agent market in 2015 and 2016, congratulations you just lucked into Alex Gordon or Jayson Heyward! 

[GreenSox]

15 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

  But there was no one who liked the Samardzija and Frazier moves here less than I, and in particular the path of trying to compete using scraps. It was a terrible plan and it worked out exactly that way, repeatedly. Prior to the 2016 season I had to take a break here because no one wanted to hear how this team wasn't nearly as good as they thought they would be. They should have spent the seasons 2014-2016 rebuilding, and then they might have had enough talent that, when the 2017 and 2018 Free Agent markets had guys that were available, they might have had enough talent developed to take advantage of it, while still having Sale and Quintana around.

Wise move taking time off, because I said it, repeatedly, and as you said, no one wanted to hear it.
That December 2013  rebuild got off to such a good start....Eaton was a major player day 1. Might have had a quicker turnaround like the Brewers, had they stuck with it.  But after 73 wins in 2014, the FO seemed to encounter a spell of delusion and decided they could compete in 2015, so they rented Samardzija, refused the opportunity to cover the losses in July ("10 game winning streak right around the corner")  and they only dug the hole deeper over the next year. 
 

Edited July 8, 2018 by GreenSox

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Wise move taking time off, because I said it, repeatedly, and as you said, no one wanted to hear it.
That December 2013  rebuild got off to such a good start....Eaton was a major player day 1. Might have had a quicker turnaround like the Brewers, had they stuck with it.  But after 73 wins in 2014, the FO seemed to encounter a spell of delusion and decided they could compete in 2015, so they rented Samardzija, refused the opportunity to cover the losses in July ("10 game winning streak right around the corner")  and they only dug the hole deeper over the next year. 
 

I am curious who we traded away that would have turned this from a 73 win team to a playoff team?

[GreenSox]

32 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I am curious who we traded away that would have turned this from a 73 win team to a playoff team?

That's a good question.  It's the White Sox who thought that could happen; otherwise, why trade a package for 1 year of Samardzija.

Now I think that team could have been rebuilt such that it would be playoff team now or maybe 2017.  It's opportunity cost - they used a package of players that had market value for players that brought marginal value back to the Sox because their window was too small and because the Sox overrated their abilities.

I'll give you one obvious move:  take the package you dealt for 1 year of Samardzija and do it for 4 years of  Donaldson instead. Maybe you have to throw in another player - but Oakland wants ML ready young players and that's what they got from the Sox (3 are still playing and on Oakland's 25).  The packages were similar.
 

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by GreenSox

[southsider2k5]

18 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

That's a good question.  It's the White Sox who thought that could happen; otherwise, why trade a package for 1 year of Samardzija.

Now I think that team could have been rebuilt such that it would be playoff team now or maybe 2017.  It's opportunity cost - they used a package of players that had market value for players that brought marginal value back to the Sox because their window was too small and because the Sox overrated their abilities.

I'll give you one obvious move:  take the package you dealt for 1 year of Samardzija and do it for 4 years of  Donaldson instead. Maybe you have to throw in another player - but Oakland wants ML ready young players and that's what they got from the Sox (3 are still playing and on Oakland's 25).  The packages were similar.
 

 

So make a different,  longer term win now move?

[fathom]

33 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

That's a good question.  It's the White Sox who thought that could happen; otherwise, why trade a package for 1 year of Samardzija.

Now I think that team could have been rebuilt such that it would be playoff team now or maybe 2017.  It's opportunity cost - they used a package of players that had market value for players that brought marginal value back to the Sox because their window was too small and because the Sox overrated their abilities.

I'll give you one obvious move:  take the package you dealt for 1 year of Samardzija and do it for 4 years of  Donaldson instead. Maybe you have to throw in another player - but Oakland wants ML ready young players and that's what they got from the Sox (3 are still playing and on Oakland's 25).  The packages were similar.
 

 

Sox thought they could easily extend Samardzija, IIRC

[Eminor3rd]

16 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I have my share of moves that I liked that were rotten, I was ok with the LaRoche signing because they needed a DH and 1b backup and that was garbage, although I never would have guessed that the manager couldn't control that guy.  But there was no one who liked the Samardzija and Frazier moves here less than I, and in particular the path of trying to compete using scraps. It was a terrible plan and it worked out exactly that way, repeatedly. Prior to the 2016 season I had to take a break here because no one wanted to hear how this team wasn't nearly as good as they thought they would be. They should have spent the seasons 2014-2016 rebuilding, and then they might have had enough talent that, when the 2017 and 2018 Free Agent markets had guys that were available, they might have had enough talent developed to take advantage of it, while still having Sale and Quintana around.

But anyway, you realize you just supported a person who said that signing Moustakas would have been a terrible move for the 2018 White Sox, right? Which is, as usual, the opposite of what you've been saying.

But even then there's a lesson getting lost in this thread - after the last decade, the White Sox should have learned that you can't win, or even break even, on the free agent market. You can only fill in the last pieces. You cannot put a 5th place team into 1st place on the free agent market, you can only put a 5th place team into 4th place.  For every guy you bought that was a bargain and outproduced (Moustakas has done that this year), there's a Logan Morrison who has completely fallen apart. For the people who said that the White Sox should have been "All in" on the free agent market in 2015 and 2016, congratulations you just lucked into Alex Gordon or Jayson Heyward! 

Too long, Balta. Too nuanced. He didn't read it. He just named you MVP because you expressed despair.

[GreenSox]

31 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So make a different,  longer term win now move?

Do you remember several years ago when KW would speak of this "3 year window"  - it was never exactly a fixed time, it would  seem to roll as was convenient, but ended up being something like 2014-2016.  That never made any sense to me because the core was signed basically through 2019 or later.  But he swore by it, and, in the end, honored it.
Yes, my Donaldson suggestion is more of a re-tool than rebuild; but it's also realistic as those 2 trades happened at around the same time and the package were very similar. 
As for trading for Samardzija so that they could extend him; that may be true, but what winning org. does that type of thing? 
 

Edited July 8, 2018 by GreenSox

[Chicago White Sox]

18 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Do you remember several years ago when KW would speak of this "3 year window"  - it was never exactly a fixed time, it would  seem to roll as was convenient, but ended up being something like 2014-2016.  That never made any sense to me because the core was signed basically through 2019 or later.  But he swore by it, and, in the end, honored it.
Yes, my Donaldson suggestion is more of a re-tool than rebuild; but it's also realistic as those 2 trades happened at around the same time and the package were very similar.  

As for trading for Samardzija so that they could extend him; that may be true, but what winning org. does that type of thing? 
 

You think the package the Blue Jays gave up for Donaldson was very similar to what we gave up for Shark?  I would say you are very off with that take.  We didn’t give up a single top 100 prospect in our deal.  The Blue Jays gave up a young player that still had a ton of value at the time in Lawrie, a top 100 & ascending talent in Barreto, plus two arms (one who was a top 10 prospect in a strong system).  As big of a fan of Semien I was at the time, we gave up far less in talent.  Sub out Anderson for say Ravelo and maybe you’re closer.

[GreenSox]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You think the package the Blue Jays gave up for Donaldson was very similar to what we gave up for Shark?  I would say you are very off with that take.  We didn’t give up a single top 100 prospect in our deal.  The Blue Jays gave up a young player that still had a ton of value at the time in Lawrie, a top 100 & ascending talent in Barreto, plus two arms (one who was a top 10 prospect in a strong system).  As big of a fan of Semien I was at the time, we gave up far less in talent.  Sub out Anderson for say Ravelo and maybe you’re closer.

Barreto was a top prospect.    Lawrie was a former top prospect who was a disappointment with several mediocre major league seasons prior to the trade; he was the same player with the Jays, As and Sox.
The Sox, however, sent 3 major league ready young players, which is what Oakland likes.  Maybe throw in Montas.
 

[greg775]

17 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

But anyway, you realize you just supported a person who said that signing Moustakas would have been a terrible move for the 2018 White Sox, right? Which is, as usual, the opposite of what you've been saying.

I'm not in love with Moustakas or anything. Not demanding we acquire him. I do think this offseason assured the Sox of being a pathetic team. After all the moves were made, we had embarrassing bullpen, embarrassing rotation and a lineup with a lot of outs. The team was built to lose. Moustakas for pennies would have actually given us an amazing infield of Moose, Anderson, Moncada and Abreu. If Avi's healthy and Davidson hitting like he is, that's six good hitters to go with an horrific outfield and catching situation. We'd still lose but Moose could have been had for pennies.

[ron883]

3 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I'm not in love with Moustakas or anything. Not demanding we acquire him. I do think this offseason assured the Sox of being a pathetic team. After all the moves were made, we had embarrassing bullpen, embarrassing rotation and a lineup with a lot of outs. The team was built to lose. Moustakas for pennies would have actually given us an amazing infield of Moose, Anderson, Moncada and Abreu. If Avi's healthy and Davidson hitting like he is, that's six good hitters to go with an horrific outfield and catching situation. We'd still lose but Moose could have been had for pennies.

I would rather the org make as much money as possible this year and for them to get the 1st pick. Moose isn't much better than yolmer. I'd rather he get burn at 3b than  Moose. 

[greg775]

47 minutes ago, Hot FiRe said:

I would rather the org make as much money as possible this year and for them to get the 1st pick. Moose isn't much better than yolmer. I'd rather he get burn at 3b than  Moose. 

There was absolutely no reason to sign Soria. I don't care about Jerry's profits but that was money down the drain. Take that 9 million and give it to the fans or something. As far as money goes, think of all that wasted cash going to Shields and Soria. Little surprised as cheap as the Sox are why they acquired Shields in the first place and why they'd pay Soria. Weird. 

[southsider2k5]

11 minutes ago, greg775 said:

There was absolutely no reason to sign Soria. I don't care about Jerry's profits but that was money down the drain. Take that 9 million and give it to the fans or something. As far as money goes, think of all that wasted cash going to Shields and Soria. Little surprised as cheap as the Sox are why they acquired Shields in the first place and why they'd pay Soria. Weird. 

They didn't sign Soria.

[Jose Abreu]

23 minutes ago, greg775 said:

There was absolutely no reason to sign Soria. I don't care about Jerry's profits but that was money down the drain. Take that 9 million and give it to the fans or something. As far as money goes, think of all that wasted cash going to Shields and Soria. Little surprised as cheap as the Sox are why they acquired Shields in the first place and why they'd pay Soria. Weird. 

Soria has been one of the better relievers in baseball. I will never understand why you can't let this one go. It was a fine trade. 

[greg775]

26 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

Soria has been one of the better relievers in baseball. I will never understand why you can't let this one go. It was a fine trade. 

But why would the tank/rebuild people approve it? I think the Sox got 3 million in salary relief so he's only 6 million, but still, the tank/rebuild people don't like to pay current players, "allegedly" stockpiling money for the future. They didn't need either reliever they got.  Poor Jake Peter is having a terrible season as well.

Edited July 8, 2018 by greg775

[southsider2k5]

13 minutes ago, greg775 said:

But why would the tank/rebuild people approve it? I think the Sox got 3 million in salary relief so he's only 6 million, but still, the tank/rebuild people don't like to pay current players, "allegedly" stockpiling money for the future. They didn't need either reliever they got.  Poor Jake Peter is having a terrible season as well.

Again,  what exactly do you do for a living?

[Jose Abreu]

12 minutes ago, greg775 said:

But why would the tank/rebuild people approve it? I think the Sox got 3 million in salary relief so he's only 6 million, but still, the tank/rebuild people don't like to pay current players, "allegedly" stockpiling money for the future. They didn't need either reliever they got.  Poor Jake Peter is having a terrible season as well.

Soria is only on the books for 2018. He's gonna be traded anyway. His acquisition does nothing to prevent us from spending on free agents this offseason. 

[Balta1701]

20 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

Soria is only on the books for 2018. He's gonna be traded anyway. His acquisition does nothing to prevent us from spending on free agents this offseason. 

And Hell, we needed to at least have some veteran in that bullpen with as many different rookies as we're moving through that pen.

[greg775]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Again,  what exactly do you do for a living?

I am a mortician; got something against it??

[southsider2k5]

39 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I am a mortician; got something against it??

lmao.  OK.