Time for a new hitting coach?

[GreatScott82]

I know many fans and analysts believe that coaching doesn’t have much of an impact on a players performance. But if there was one coach who can have more of a personal impact on players performance, isn’t it a hitting coach and pitching coach? Since Stevenson took over in 2014, the white sox have produced some poor offensive numbers. And seeing that so much is invested in guys like Moncada and Anderson, after seeing them struggle, perhaps it’s time for a new voice? Granted much of the Sox struggles is due to a poorly constructed roster, but the entire organization has been on the bottom half of the league in run production and average since he took over as hitting coach. 

Listen, I’m not putting all the blame on him for the perennial suck of this team. And I know the hitting coach is usually the first to get axed when a team struggles. I just want to see guys like Moncada and Anderson (who are supposed to be a big part of the future) start making leaps of offensive progress. Perhaps it’s time for a new offensive voice? 

What are your thoughts on this?

[GreenSox]

The hitting, including the progress of young hitters, has been far more productive than the pitching.

And I also like this coach if for no other reason he is not a White Sox lifer

[BamaDoc]

I also think the minor league hitting coaches matter more.  By the time you are in the majors, you have tens of thousands of swings so changing is hard.  Steverson's hitting camps are the right idea IMO to teach philosophies to the hitters on the way up.  I am old enough to miss Charlie Lau.  

[Sticky Stuff]

I really don’t see how a hitting coach can prevent a player from swinging at pitches that aren’t strikes. Plate discipline has to fall on the player, not the hitting coach.

[Eminor3rd]

15 minutes ago, DH in the NL said:

I really don’t see how a hitting coach can prevent a player from swinging at pitches that aren’t strikes. Plate discipline has to fall on the player, not the hitting coach.

Also, while plate discipline CAN be a product of patience and approach, it can also simply be an inability to recognize pitches quickly enough, which no amounting of coaching can fix.

[GreatScott82]

58 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

The hitting, including the progress of young hitters, has been far more productive than the pitching.

And I also like this coach if for no other reason he is not a White Sox lifer

Can you please elaborate on this progress? I do appreciate that Steverson isn't a lifer and its always nice to get an outside perspective on hitting. But I just don't see dramatic evidence to warrant him staying here long term. 

[Bob Sacamano]

 

51 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Also, while plate discipline CAN be a product of patience and approach, it can also simply be an inability to recognize pitches quickly enough, which no amounting of coaching can fix.

 

1 hour ago, DH in the NL said:

I really don’t see how a hitting coach can prevent a player from swinging at pitches that aren’t strikes. Plate discipline has to fall on the player, not the hitting coach.

Both of these.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, DH in the NL said:

I really don’t see how a hitting coach can prevent a player from swinging at pitches that aren’t strikes. Plate discipline has to fall on the player, not the hitting coach.

I totally agree with this.  We have all kinds of evidence to suggest that the Sox coaching staff is telling Moncada to adjust his approach.  If he won't do it, that isn't on them.

[reiks12]

Why did you leave Avi out of your post? 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I agree with the OP. Remember Tyler Saladino and a tweet from Justin Morneau ? https://www.soxmachine.com/2018/05/27/what-is-tyler-saladino-now-and-is-jose-rondon-still-him/

Basically the Sox told him to stop using a leg kick and the Brewers showed him data that said he would generate more power with it. If the Sox are against leg kicks then yes it's time for a hitting coach . Saldino's numbers are much better with the Brwwers albeit in a limited sample size but he has been a valued utility player there on a contender when a really bad team like the Sox had no room for him .

[reiks12]

23 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I agree with the OP. Remember Tyler Saladino and a tweet from Justin Morneau ? https://www.soxmachine.com/2018/05/27/what-is-tyler-saladino-now-and-is-jose-rondon-still-him/

Basically the Sox told him to stop using a leg kick and the Brewers showed him data that said he would generate more power with it. If the Sox are against leg kicks then yes it's time for a hitting coach . Saldino's numbers are much better with the Brwwers albeit in a limited sample size but he has been a valued utility player there on a contender when a really bad team like the Sox had no room for him .

Reminds me of the Collins article where he basically had to ask his Miami coaches for help and found out that the Sox minor league coaches had him abandon his college approach and stance. Went from .70s to .250 once he reverted.

 

 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Just now, reiks12 said:

Reminds me of the Collins article where he basically had to ask his Miami coaches for help and found out that the Sox minor league coaches had him abandon his college approach and stance. Went from .70s to .250 once he reverted.

 

 

 

Yea I didnt bring that up because the OP was talking about Steverson . Lots of guys successfully use leg kicks and the bigger issue is where was the Sox data on Sally's numbers with and without a leg kick ? Is anyone awake in this organization ?

[Richie]

59 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said:

 

 

Both of these.

Hitting coaches help with both of those things, actually. Pitch recognition is a big part of what Major League hitting coaches do. It's very teachable. 

[Eminor3rd]

12 minutes ago, Richie said:

Hitting coaches help with both of those things, actually. Pitch recognition is a big part of what Major League hitting coaches do. It's very teachable. 

The ability for your brain to process visual information quickly enough to be an effective hitter is NOT coachable.

You can tell a player what to look for, and you can help him improve his load and swing mechanics to give him the most time to get it done, but if he can't do it, he just can't do it. And any coach that isn't telling guys how to do those two things wouldn't make it to the MLB in the first place.

[southsider2k5]

40 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

The ability for your brain to process visual information quickly enough to be an effective hitter is NOT coachable.

You can tell a player what to look for, and you can help him improve his load and swing mechanics to give him the most time to get it done, but if he can't do it, he just can't do it. And any coach that isn't telling guys how to do those two things wouldn't make it to the MLB in the first place.

That skill right there is the difference between the 1% who make MLB and the rest of the 99% who try.

[GenericUserName]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

That skill right there is the difference between the 1% who make MLB and the rest of the 99% who try.

I agree (though there is some debate whether playing the game just improves eye sight instead of the opposite way), and that is why the biggest thing for Moncada to me is that he needs glasses. They talked about it before the year how Moncada needs glasses but Tim Anderson told him not to get them because he (Anderson) didn't like the way they felt when he was batting. When I see heat maps of Moncada and it shows that he has bad breaking ball recognition and is bad against anything in the bottom of the zone, both in recognizing and making contact, and I feel like those are the exact things that bad eyesight would cause. It's similar to Bryce Harper when he learned he needed corrective lenses when he made the Nationals, so everything he was doing before was while he could barely see the ball. 

[Richie]

4 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

The ability for your brain to process visual information quickly enough to be an effective hitter is NOT coachable.

You can tell a player what to look for, and you can help him improve his load and swing mechanics to give him the most time to get it done, but if he can't do it, he just can't do it. And any coach that isn't telling guys how to do those two things wouldn't make it to the MLB in the first place.

A gigantic portion of pitch recognition is where you're picking up the pitch, where you are looking at the pitcher in order to pickup the pitch, how you are seeing the ball out of the hand... What exactly are you looking for out of the hand? Where are you picking the pitch up from? "Are you looking the pitcher's shoulders before he releases? Where are you looking when he's in his set?:... "How about when he goes into his leg kick?"... "Try focusing here... it could help you pickup the breaking ball out of the hand a little better."... "If we open you up a bit, will the different eye level help you recognize a pitcher's release point better?"

Hitters start out poorly with discipline and figure this stuff out all of the time. It happens by working with their hitting coach. Sure, there's guys who are royally f'd. However, many are not that way and just need some guidance. I think that's been proven.

 

Edited July 14, 2018 by Richie

[Eminor3rd]

1 hour ago, Richie said:

A gigantic portion of pitch recognition is where you're picking up the pitch, where you are looking at the pitcher in order to pickup the pitch, how you are seeing the ball out of the hand... What exactly are you looking for out of the hand? Where are you picking the pitch up from? "Are you looking the pitcher's shoulders before he releases? Where are you looking when he's in his set?:... "How about when he goes into his leg kick?"... "Try focusing here... it could help you pickup the breaking ball out of the hand a little better."... "If we open you up a bit, will the different eye level help you recognize a pitcher's release point better?"

Hitters start out poorly with discipline and figure this stuff out all of the time. It happens by working with their hitting coach. Sure, there's guys who are royally f'd. However, many are not that way and just need some guidance. I think that's been proven.

 

Right -- I agree with all of that.

The point is just that the fact alone  that you see guys who can't learn to recognize pitches is not sufficient evidence that the coaches aren't telling those guys how to see pitches. All the stuff you mentioned, while critically important, isn't exactly rocket science -- any hitting coach at any professional level should teaching that kind of stuff. If they are doing so, and the hitter either won't listen or still can't do it, then no coach is going to be able to help.

I think it's safer to assume that Steverson knows to teach players tricks for recognizing pitches than it is to assume he can't or won't. For guys who we see just continue to fail at it, I think it's tough to argue that a different coach would make the difference. 

There are exceptions, of course.

[Dominikk85]

The problem is never approach or patience, every single hitter in mlb, milb, college or HS knows it is bad to swing at balls. The issue is pitch recognition which is tough to do because hitters have to decide roughly when the pitch is a little past halfway home. This is not easy to teach, but some modern franchises like the Astros have invented vision and tracking drills. For example some  teams like the dbacks have worked with pitch tunnels (basically imagining a zone halfway home the pitch has to pass through as a swing trigger).

This isn't 100% bullet proof though as tunnels can make you more susceptible to certain FB  breaking ball sequences but There are things you can do. Still doesn't work with everyone of course, some never learn to recognize pitches, because it is damn hard to decide 25 feet away wether a 95 mph throw will be a strike or not.