Jimenez could return Sunday

[Butter Parque]

4 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

I never said I "hope" the team does anything. I think you're confused. 

You supported the statement by hot fire by referring to it as reality. It’s non sensical from a fan’s perspective unless you’re rooting interest is savings for Jerry Reinsdorf. 

[Jerksticks]

Fans can’t root long term? Only here and now like dogs chasing something shiny?

[Butter Parque]

7 hours ago, Jerksticks said:

Fans can’t root long term? Only here and now like dogs chasing something shiny?

They're rooting for a player to not receive an extra year of arbitration at the expense of being called up to the majors before June 2019. But yes, anyone who sees this scenario as ridiculous obviously isn't as sophisticated as those on message boards who like to pretend that they are GM's. 

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

They're rooting for a player to not receive an extra year of arbitration at the expense of being called up to the majors before June 2019. But yes, anyone who sees this scenario as ridiculous obviously isn't as sophisticated as those on message boards who like to pretend that they are GM's. 

There is also recognizing that the Sox are a team with limited resources, and wanting to maximize those resources as much as possible, especially towards the end of a tenure isn't a bad thing.

[Jerksticks]

2 hours ago, Butter Parque said:

They're rooting for a player to not receive an extra year of arbitration at the expense of being called up to the majors before June 2019. But yes, anyone who sees this scenario as ridiculous obviously isn't as sophisticated as those on message boards who like to pretend that they are GM's. 

I don’t think it has to be snarky.  Some fans on here have lived through decades of just a handful of playoff appearances.  Maybe they want the longest possible championship window open.  

[Butter Parque]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

There is also recognizing that the Sox are a team with limited resources, and wanting to maximize those resources as much as possible, especially towards the end of a tenure isn't a bad thing.

If this rebuild can’t generate revenue (ticket sales) in the time period of 2021-2024 to offset an extra year of arbitration, than it ended up being a failure anyway. 

Thats all this amounts to if Super 2 is indeed influencing decisions on guys like Eloy. It’s Management covering for themselves in the event the rebuild fails and they don’t generate any additional revenue by the time that extra year of arbitration comes into play. 

Ill reiterate that this team has no salary obligations on the horizon and most of us don’t expect them to go out and make a big splash in 2019 free agency. Im a fan not interested in seeing Reinsdorf pocket money at the expense of having a potentially deserving player learn and gain experience at the big league level. 

[Butter Parque]

38 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

I don’t think it has to be snarky.  Some fans on here have lived through decades of just a handful of playoff appearances.  Maybe they want the longest possible championship window open.  

It has nothing to do with an extra year of control for Eloy. It has to do with paying Eloy an arbitration salary for an extra year. If this rebuild hasn’t  generated additional revenue between 2021-2024 to more than offset this cost, than they weren’t competing anyway. 

Edited July 15, 2018 by Butter Parque

[southsider2k5]

30 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

If this rebuild can’t generate revenue (ticket sales) in the time period of 2021-2024 to offset an extra year of arbitration, than it ended up being a failure anyway. 

Thats all this amounts to if Super 2 is indeed influencing decisions on guys like Eloy. It’s Management covering for themselves in the event the rebuild fails and they don’t generate any additional revenue by the time that extra year of arbitration comes into play. 

Ill reiterate that this team has no salary obligations on the horizon and most of us don’t expect them to go out and make a big splash in 2019 free agency. Im a fan not interested in seeing Reinsdorf pocket money at the expense of having a potentially deserving player learn and gain experience at the big league level. 

Over the course of 6 years it has been found to add somewhere around $10 million to their earnings, the the lions share being in the 6th year.  Do that a few times and we are talking a Manny Machado salary.

[southsider2k5]

 

[Two-Gun Pete]

On 7/13/2018 at 6:22 PM, Balta1701 said:

That's fine but that's not called up after 4 weeks. Give me a .950 OPS and I'll call him up after 4 weeks.

I take a different view, apart from the "controllable years" issue.

I note that this org has not scouted, signed/drafted, & developed their own position player prospect that later provided repeat years of >replacement level WAR since Aaron Rowand. That is to say, not in 17 freakin' years.

So, I for one have long since tired of the ongoing joke of failure that has been their inability to turn a prospect into a contributor.

IF this org had more success, then I might be inclined to give them more of a benefit of the doubt. But, I sincerely can't recall of a top prospect that this org gave the benefit of a full year @ the high minors (AA & AAA) in all those years since Rowand.

So, why not TRY something different? Why NOT give Jimenez, et al a full season in the high minors? Aren't we as a fandom tired of failure & young players with poor baseball instincts? 

At the same time, exactly how can it hurt a prospect? Did it hurt Bryant to spend a whole season in AAA? OTOH, we can all recite chapter & verse of rushed prospects that later failed. Im just tired of the same, tired approach of half-developed prospects arriving in Chicago. YMMV

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I take a different view, apart from the "controllable years" issue.

I note that this org has not scouted, signed/drafted, & developed their own position player prospect that later provided repeat years of >replacement level WAR since Aaron Rowand. That is to say, not in 17 freakin' years.

So, I for one have long since tired of the ongoing joke of failure that has been their inability to turn a prospect into a contributor.

IF this org had more success, then I might be inclined to give them more of a benefit of the doubt. But, I sincerely can't recall of a top prospect that this org gave the benefit of a full year @ the high minors (AA & AAA) in all those years since Rowand.

So, why not TRY something different? Why NOT give Jimenez, et al a full season in the high minors? Aren't we as a fandom tired of failure & young players with poor baseball instincts? 

At the same time, exactly how can it hurt a prospect? Did it hurt Bryant to spend a whole season in AAA? OTOH, we can all recite chapter & verse of rushed prospects that later failed. Im just tired of the same, tired approach of half-developed prospects arriving in Chicago. YMMV

https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=11602&position=2B/3B

https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=15172&position=SS

[TaylorStSox]

We've also drafted and developed some guys that have had good careers with other teams ie Chris Carter, Chris Young, Semien, Phegley etc. I'm not defending the development team, but to say they've only produced Rowand is just  wrong. 

Edited July 15, 2018 by TaylorStSox

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

We've also drafted and developed some guys that have had good careers with other teams ie Chris Carter, Chris Young, Semien, Phegley etc. I'm not defending the development team, but to say they've only produced Rowand is just  wrong. 

It is also silly to disqualify people who leave.  The Sox drafted and developed someone like Escobar in Minny, even if he succeeded elsewhere. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

12 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=11602&position=2B/3B

https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=15172&position=SS

Two things:

1. Neither Yolmer, nor Anderson have YET produced more than 1 season of >replacement level WAR. (Defined as >2.0) They will likely accomplish this after 17 years of futility and stupidity after this season, assuming no injuries.

2. If all you can produce is a decent utility IF & an average SS (though he's in ascent), that isn't much of an accomplishment in 17 seasons.

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Two things:

1. Neither Yolmer, nor Anderson have YET produced more than 1 season of >replacement level WAR. (Defined as >2.0) They will likely accomplish this after 17 years of futility and stupidity after this season, assuming no injuries.

2. If all you can produce is a decent utility IF & an average SS (though he's in ascent), that isn't much of an accomplishment in 17 seasons.

WAR literally stands for Win Above Replacement. A 2 WAR is 2 wins Above Replacement, but impressive to move the goalposts twice in the same post after being proven wrong. 

[TaylorStSox]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It is also silly to disqualify people who leave.  The Sox drafted and developed someone like Escobar in Minny, even if he succeeded elsewhere. 

Yeah, it is silly. You certainly don't have to be disingenuous to knock the Sox farm. They suck. They have had some bright spots though. I'm pretty sure Carter, Young and Semien were all drafted in the late rounds, identified by scouts and developed by the coaches. It's not like they were can't miss draft picks. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

6 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

We've also drafted and developed some guys that have had good careers with other teams ie Chris Carter, Chris Young, Semien, Phegley etc. I'm not defending the development team, but to say they've only produced Rowand is just  wrong. 

 

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It is also silly to disqualify people who leave.  The Sox drafted and developed someone like Escobar in Minny, even if he succeeded elsewhere. 

Many of those players were "finished" elsewhere. 

Semien, for example, has become a cromulent defender, & a positive provider of WAR, due to the work of others in other orgs. Escobar, has finally produced a 2nd season of >2 fWAR this season.

Irrespective of minutiae, this org has been bad at development. Do you disagree?

[TaylorStSox]

1 minute ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

 

Many of those players were "finished" elsewhere. 

Semien, for example, has become a cromulent defender, & a positive provider of WAR, due to the work of others in other orgs. Escobar, has finally produced a 2nd season of >2 fWAR this season.

Irrespective of minutiae, this org has been bad at development. Do you disagree?

None of those guys were "finished" elsewhere. 

 

I also literally just got done saying the development team sucks and you quoted me. You don't have to lie to prove it. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

WAR literally stands for Win Above Replacement. A 2 WAR is 2 wins Above Replacement, but impressive to move the goalposts twice in the same post after being proven wrong. 

https://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/war/

Not really. According to fangraphs (towards the bottom OF that site)

0-1 WAR is a scrub,

1-2 WAR is a role player,

2-3 WAR is a solid starter.

 

It's been 17 years since they've produced a regular solid starter. You may like the 0-1 WAR years we get from scrubs, but I don't. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 minute ago, TaylorStSox said:

None of those guys were "finished" elsewhere. 

 

I also literally just got done saying the development team sucks and you quoted me. You don't have to lie to prove it. 

Wait, I literally just gave you the example of Semien, who this org couldn't teach a defensive position, but who is at least cromulent in Oakland.

Thats pretty much the definition of being finished elsewhere.

[TaylorStSox]

1 minute ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Wait, I literally just gave you the example of Semien, who this org couldn't teach a defensive position, but who is at least cromulent in Oakland.

Thats pretty much the definition of being finished elsewhere.

Semien was moved because the Sox chose Anderson, not because they couldn't find a position. Marcus Semien never spent a day in the A's farm system, as far as I know. Your definition of development is pretty disingenuous too. At least you're consistent.