It’s Time To Put Up or Shut Up, Rick

[wrathofhahn]

3 hours ago, Scoots said:

But the players have lots of incentive to change it

Sure but historically across all sports betting on the players getting what they want when it comes to the CBA is a bad bet to make

I doubt it ever gets changed but who knows

[SCCWS]

I watched Charlotte last night. Eloy does look ready but I trust Hahn to make the right decision. Stephens  last night was awful. 

[ron883]

Slightly off topic. I decided to check the numbers of the other top 3 prospect in the league. Good GOD Vladdy Jr has some freakish stats. OPS north of 1.100 in 61 games as a 19 year old in AA. 

[southsider2k5]

5 hours ago, Scoots said:

But the players have lots of incentive to change it

So what are the players giving up?

[Ducksnort]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

So what are the players giving up?

Not sure. But it seems like this last deal, whatever they did, bit them in the ass last off-season. They definitely need better negotiators. 

Or maybe it just seemed like a bad deal because last offseason's FA crop sucked, and many teams are taking a different approach with rebuilding. Maybe it will be better this time around. 

Regardless, who knows what they would give up. I'm not going to suggest anything, but with all the great young talent in the minors, if this starts to become an issue with keeping players down until an extra year of control, it will definitely be heavily discussed.

[Wanne]

it is what it is right now in terms of the CBA...but in regards to bringing up Eloy of Kopech right now I'm of the opinion:

Extra year of control > our self satisfaction for a few months

[iamshack]

19 minutes ago, Wanne said:

it is what it is right now in terms of the CBA...but in regards to bringing up Eloy of Kopech right now I'm of the opinion:

Extra year of control > our self satisfaction for a few months

I’m not concerned about the fan base. I’m concerned about the players. 

That said, I trust that the organization knows far better than I do, so I will patiently wait.

 

And check twitter every 5 min to see if either have been brought up yet.

[Ducksnort]

1 hour ago, Wanne said:

it is what it is right now in terms of the CBA...but in regards to bringing up Eloy of Kopech right now I'm of the opinion:

Extra year of control > our self satisfaction for a few months

I'm of the opinion:

When they are ready to be brought up (or "check all the boxes...") they are brought up>Extra year of control.

If they aren't developmentally ready until August next year (God forbid Eloy breaks his hip or something tomorrow and can't play til next season, which is the only scenario I see something like an August 2019 debut happening), then that's when it should happen. If he isn't ready next May, then that's when it should happen. If he is ready in 3 weeks, then that is when it should happen.

What were the service time rules back in the early 90s when big Frank skipped AAA to come to MLB? (I know, different team then in a different situation, just curious).

Edited July 28, 2018 by Scoots

[Leonard Zelig]

Caulfield, why do you post an article like this?  Since you made no comment should we assume that you share the views of the author?  

[Wanne]

7 hours ago, Scoots said:

I'm of the opinion:

When they are ready to be brought up (or "check all the boxes...") they are brought up>Extra year of control.

If they aren't developmentally ready until August next year (God forbid Eloy breaks his hip or something tomorrow and can't play til next season, which is the only scenario I see something like an August 2019 debut happening), then that's when it should happen. If he isn't ready next May, then that's when it should happen. If he is ready in 3 weeks, then that is when it should happen.

What were the service time rules back in the early 90s when big Frank skipped AAA to come to MLB? (I know, different team then in a different situation, just curious).

Not sure what to tell ya if you don't think Eloy is "developmentally ready"  at this moment.  Good lord...he'd probably instantly become the best hitter in the lineup.  I get the service time thing.  But both of these guys are ready.  Kopech is just as ready as Giolito and Lopez were.

[caulfield12]

14 hours ago, Leonard Zelig said:

Caulfield, why do you post an article like this?  Since you made no comment should we assume that you share the views of the author?  

I just met a huge White Sox fan at my high school reunion (husband of former classmate)...we spent a long time talking about this very issue.

Honestly, I have no idea what we actually have in Moncada or Anderson at this point.  If they are going to be 2-3 war guys or much more.  Moncada was supposed to be a 5-7ish superstar.  What do we have in Giolito, or Lopez, at this point?  Covey?  

The biggest cause for celebration is the healthy return of Rodon (for now), and Abreu/Avi hitting better than they did previously.  But it's likely neither of those guys are part of the 2021 team, unless they shock all of us and sign Garcia to an extension.  

There's just a lot of uncertainty and frustration.  I suppose the White Sox might not have any choice in eventually making it back to the playoffs, because we should be ahead of all the other rebuilding AL Central teams in 2021 and onwards, but actually having the firepower to beat the Red Sox, Yankees, Astros, Cubs, Dodgers, etc., is another matter altogether.   Having a run like the Pirates in recent years (where they would make it but get knocked out early or just have one WC game) doesn't automatically turn this team into a 2.5-2.75 million attendance generator, which is what Reinsdorf would need to justify spending $130-150 million on payroll again.  The Cubs are still going to be dominating the Chicago market at least for the next couple of years, too.

Beyond the minor league health issues, we have a number of posters wanting to trade Rodon (clearly our best pitcher now)...and the simple fact that Hahn and Company have bungled almost every free agent signing for a span of almost five years.

Eventually adding Jimenez and Kopech will make this team much more watchable, but still more or less back in 2010-12 mode, where we're competitive but far from dominant.  And the odds of signing any big name FA's this loaded offseason are diminishing by the second.   At best, we get someone like AJ Pollock (who can hardly stay on the field) for a "bargain" price but alluring enough to get him to sign for AT LEAST 3 years, if not 4.

Edited July 29, 2018 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Last night was the Sox highest total attendance since opening day.  I was there and there were more people dancing than I can remember. People are tired of losing. A nice Sox comeback and everyone jumped out of their shells. Winning is fung.

Next season is going to be interesting. I think far more fans are expecting a huge jump, than those who think another year of this is OK. Maybe people on this board understand next year probably won’t be a big hit, I don’t think that feeling is shared throughout White Sox fandom.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Dick Allen

[GreenSox]

38 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Beyond the minor league health issues, we have a number of posters wanting to trade Rodon (clearly our best pitcher now)...and the simple fact that Hahn and Company have bungled almost every free agent signing for a span of almost five years.

Eventually adding Jimenez and Kopech will make this team much more watchable, but still more or less back in 2010-12 mode, where we're competitive but far from dominant.  And the odds of signing any big name FA's this loaded offseason are diminishing by the second.   At best, we get someone like AJ Pollock (who can hardly stay on the field) for a "bargain" price but alluring enough to get him to sign for AT LEAST 3 years, if not 4.

They can't add free agents next year because free agents will merely make them watchable and that doesn't justify the cost.  The rebuild is at least 1 year behind schedule...and if the first wave are mostly busts, and not just slow developers, then it's likely 3 years behind schedule.  And that's due to the failure of Fulmer, Giolito and Lopez....the horrendous starting pitching is why the team is unwatchable and non-competitive most nights.
While the Sox will need Moncada (and a couple of others) to be great for the team to be great, he's not terrible and he's not the reason the team is terrible - that's the pitching.

[caulfield12]

And, if you trade Rodon (for far less than you got back for the Big 3), you’re essentially forcing Kopech or Cease to be a #1/TOR piece.

The Sox haven’t acquired one from outside the organization since Garcia and Contreras.  I guess tryouts can count the Quintana steal and his evolution into a 2, almost signing Tanaka (that would have blown up if they committed Darvish money.)

Hansen has taken two steps backwards, he was the other one with that potential ability, with Dunning slotting in as a 2/3 guy and equal numbers believing he’s a 1 or merely a 4/5.  López’s future outcomes are all over the map, too, along with Giolito’s.

Simply put, without a healthy Rodon, there’s yet another element of uncertainty for that predicted 2021 dominance.

[Chicago White Sox]

31 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

And, if you trade Rodon (for far less than you got back for the Big 3), you’re essentially forcing Kopech or Cease to be a #1/TOR piece.

The Sox haven’t acquired one from outside the organization since Garcia and Contreras.  I guess tryouts can count the Quintana steal and his evolution into a 2, almost signing Tanaka (that would have blown up if they committed Darvish money.)

Hansen has taken two steps backwards, he was the other one with that potential ability, with Dunning slotting in as a 2/3 guy and equal numbers believing he’s a 1 or merely a 4/5.  López’s future outcomes are all over the map, too, along with Giolito’s.

Simply put, without a healthy Rodon, there’s yet another element of uncertainty for that predicted 2021 dominance.

There’s no guarantee Rodon will remain healthy and we’ll still have this problem when Rodon leaves in free agency after the 2021 season.

[caulfield12]

Okay, but what can you actually get in return for him this offseason or next year at the deadline?

You’re merely creating one more huge hole without guaranteeing you can fill another with your acquisition pieces.

[caulfield12]

And they have taken a huge gamble putting most of their eggs in the pitching basket.

Look no further than what has happened with the 2015 Mets’ rotation.

 

Compare to Baez, Bryant, Contreras, Schwarber, Happ, Almora and Russell.  The only failure there was Soler, so they were 7/8 with their top position prospects (we can eliminate Baez because he was Hendry and Contreras because he could have been picked up by any team in Rule 5 a half decade ago.)  If you want to extend to pitching, you can add hitting on Hendricks as well.

Is ANY MLB team realistically going to hit at an 83% rate for top pitching prospects?  The rate there is 30-40% at best.  It was MUCH worse than that for the White Sox in the 1998-2001 groups.

If they come up short, do they have the budget to throw $100-150 million at a Darvish type and then cover for the lack of hitting (see worst outfield fWAR in baseball, -0.6)?  An elite closer?  That’s a lot of heavy lifting still to go even if Jimenez is an absolute stud hitter (900+ ops).  Can you afford to keep Avi Garcia?

To put it in perspective, Happ and Schwarber can’t even play everyday and each of those guys would be the best hitter on the Sox. Heck, David Bote would be our best contact hitter.  And Russell is still a better player than Moncada or Anderson despite being a huge disappointment to most Cubs’ fans this season.  

Edited July 30, 2018 by caulfield12

[Donaldo]

On 7/27/2018 at 4:46 PM, Tony said:

Ask Cubs fans right now if they care that Kris Bryant was kept down in the minors so they could obtain an extra year of control during his peak years. Ask them if it’s affected other free agents or players on the roster. 

Weak effort.

My thoughts exactly.  If Eloy gets called up now and we lose that extra year of control, people are going to b**** about that when the time comes (and they'll have EVERY right to).

 

Quote

Fans sure love service time manipulation. I’ve got its 1983 jersey

Is that supposed to be funny?