KW on Jimenez/Kopech

[Jake]

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Well, except for last year with Giolito and Lopez, who were both called up in early August, but that was so long ago that it's understandable you'd forget.

Those two already had MLB service time, though.

[Balta1701]

Just now, Jake said:

Those two already had MLB service time, though.

If we're willing to keep Kopech in the minors for an extra 2 months beyond where they should be up for service time reasons and nothing else, why couldn't we keep those guys in the minors an extra 2 months?

Sounds...familiar.

[Jake]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If we're willing to keep Kopech in the minors for an extra 2 months beyond where they should be up for service time reasons and nothing else, why couldn't we keep those guys in the minors an extra 2 months?

Sounds...familiar.

What I am saying is the choice in the case of those guys wasn't to wait until mid-April the next season to get a bonus year of service time, but instead to wait until about June of the next year because they both had about 45 days of service time with the Nats. In other words, you would be deciding to hold them in the minors for ~4 extra months

[Eminor3rd]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If we're willing to keep Kopech in the minors for an extra 2 months beyond where they should be up for service time reasons and nothing else, why couldn't we keep those guys in the minors an extra 2 months?

Sounds...familiar.

Kopech has nothing to do with service time. He was slaying AAA at the start of the year, the front office told him he needed to refine his changeup before he would have success at the MLB level. He started working on the changeup, began struggling (as is understandable, given the circumstances), and simply hasn't been able to return to the same level of dominance with the arsenal that the FO has prescribed. 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Eminor3rd said:

Kopech has nothing to do with service time. He was slaying AAA at the start of the year, the front office told him he needed to refine his changeup before he would have success at the MLB level. He started working on the changeup, began struggling (as is understandable, given the circumstances), and simply hasn't been able to return to the same level of dominance with the arsenal that the FO has prescribed. 

Dude has a 2.32 ERA and a 1.00 WHIP since the AS break. Since he had a mid June walk-fest his ERA is 2.65. I'm totally ok with him finishing the next 5 starts in Charlotte, but if he keeps up anything like this then he should get some big league innings in September.

[Dick Allen]

31 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Well, except for last year with Giolito and Lopez, who were both called up in early August, but that was so long ago that it's understandable you'd forget.

Again, you are comparing apples to oranges. Totally different issues, totally different situations. WHY DO THEY HAVE TO TREAT EVERY PLAYER EXACTLY THE SAME? 

Keep in mind the players you mentioned, Moncada now Giolito and Lopez DID NOT MAKE THEIR MAJOR LEAGUE DEBUTS WITH THE WHITE SOX. 

i guess you should be crying why did the White Sox have them in the minor leagues at all.

 

To call up a top prospect in September on a team with no playoff shot, considering the current rules, is about as dumb of a move a GM can make. If Hahn does it, even though you will agree with it, you can go move being fired 4 times up to 5.

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

Again, you are comparing apples to oranges. Totally different issues, totally different situations. WHY DO THEY HAVE TO TREAT EVERY PLAYER EXACTLY THE SAME? 

Keep in mind the players you mentioned, Moncada now Giolito and Lopez DID NOT MAKE THEIR MAJOR LEAGUE DEBUTS WITH THE WHITE SOX. 

i guess you should be crying why did the White Sox have them in the minor leagues at all.

 

 

Either the priority is service time or it's what's best for the player. The priority this year shouldn't be service time if the priority last year was what's best for the player.

[Eminor3rd]

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Dude has a 2.32 ERA and a 1.00 WHIP since the AS break. Since he had a mid June walk-fest his ERA is 2.65. I'm totally ok with him finishing the next 5 starts in Charlotte, but if he keeps up anything like this then he should get some big league innings in September.

We'll see what happens, but if he's got everything down they've asked, I imagine he'll be up. I don't think they're holding him for service time. Especially for pitchers, there's just not a good reason to do that.

[Dick Allen]

Just now, Eminor3rd said:

We'll see what happens, but if he's got everything down they've asked, I imagine he'll be up. I don't think they're holding him for service time. Especially for pitchers, there's just not a good reason to do that.

There is no good reason unless he is near his innings limit which he will be if he is down there much longer, and it's September. A few meaningless starts for a bad team makes no sense givng away a year of contro.l.

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Either the priority is service time or it's what's best for the player. The priority this year shouldn't be service time if the priority last year was what's best for the player.

It can be both. How have the big Septembers guys like Morel, and Fields, and Owens, and Giolito, and Trayce Thompson, and Moncada put up help them later?

It's a nice theory, there just doesn't seem to be much evidence sitting out September kills careers. If it does, the Sox should probably trade Luis Robert right now for whatever they can get. With all he has missed, he evidently will have no chance.

[Balta1701]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

It can be both. How have the big Septembers guys like Morel, and Fields, and Owens, and Giolito, and Trayce Thompson, and Moncada put up help them later?

It's a nice theory, there just doesn't seem to be much evidence sitting out September kills careers. If it does, the Sox should probably trade Luis Robert right now for whatever they can get. With all he has missed, he evidently will have no chance.

So calling up everyone you just listed was a mistake as it cost the White Sox service time on all of them? For shame. You're right, that is a whole series of terrible moves.

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So calling up everyone you just listed was a mistake as it cost the White Sox service time on all of them? For shame. You're right, that is a whole series of terrible moves.

No...that's actually not what he said at all lol

[Dick Allen]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

So calling up everyone you just listed was a mistake as it cost the White Sox service time on all of them? For shame. You're right, that is a whole series of terrible moves.

I never said that. It isn't black and white. I am just showing you that "what is best for the player" doesn't necessarily mean trotting him out there in meaningless September games. Either call them out now, which I don't agree with, or wait until two weeks into next season. 

But since the Sox made Sale a reliever, I am sure you are on board if Kopech is named the 2019 closer. All plans must remain the same.

[Bob Sacamano]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

It can be both. How have the big Septembers guys like Morel, and Fields, and Owens, and Giolito, and Trayce Thompson, and Moncada put up help them later?

It's a nice theory, there just doesn't seem to be much evidence sitting out September kills careers. If it does, the Sox should probably trade Luis Robert right now for whatever they can get. With all he has missed, he evidently will have no chance.

Agreed 100%. Not calling them up this year doesn't mean they will suck next year or for their whole career.

Edited August 7, 2018 by soxfan2014

[ChiSox59]

I keep seeing people say why does 2025 matter when Gio, Lopez and Moncada will all be FA in 2024.  Especially that Patrick Nolan guy on Twitter (man has that dude been a blowhard the past few months).  The whole idea of a rebuild is to have waves of talent.  Avoiding having all your elite talent becoming a FA the same year is important. 

2024: Moncada, Anderson, Gio, Lopez

2025: Eloy and Kopech

2026: Cease, Dunning, Collins, Madrigal

2027: Robert, Rutherford, Basabe, Hansen, Adolfo, Burger, Gonzalez

The whole idea is that your whole roster doesn't just go away in one season like what happened with the Royals right after they got good.

Edited August 7, 2018 by ChiSox59

[Bob Sacamano]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I keep seeing people say why does 2025 matter when Gio, Lopez and Moncada will all be FA in 2024.  Especially that Patrick Nolan guy on Twitter (man has that dude been a blowhard the past few months).  The whole idea of a rebuild is to have waves of talent.  Avoiding having all your elite talent becoming a FA the same year is important. 

2024: Moncada, Anderson, Gio, Lopez

2025: Eloy and Kopech

2026: Cease, Dunning, Collins, Madrigal

2027: Robert, Rutherford, Basade, Hasen, Adolfo, Burger, Gonzalez

The whole idea is that your whole roster doesn't just go away in one season like what happened with the Royals right after they got good.

Excellent point that I honestly never even considered.

[Dick Allen]

The other silly thing is being scared not calling them up will piss them off. They know just about every team in the White Sox position would hold them back. The exceptions would be teams so desperate for some sort of box office bump. And those teams would not be in play when they become free agents. Too financially challenged.

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The other silly thing is being scared not calling them up will piss them off. They know just about every team in the White Sox position would hold them back. The exceptions would be teams so desperate for some sort of box office bump. And those teams would not be in play when they become free agents. Too financially challenged.

Or teams actually trying to win games.  I have no doubt that Eloy and Kopech would be up if the Sox were within spitting distance of a playoff berth.  But they aren't (even close).  In fact, winning games at this point is somewhat counterproductive unless its due to fantastic games from long term future pieces.  

[Balta1701]

45 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I keep seeing people say why does 2025 matter when Gio, Lopez and Moncada will all be FA in 2024.  Especially that Patrick Nolan guy on Twitter (man has that dude been a blowhard the past few months).  The whole idea of a rebuild is to have waves of talent.  Avoiding having all your elite talent becoming a FA the same year is important. 

2024: Moncada, Anderson, Gio, Lopez

2025: Eloy and Kopech

2026: Cease, Dunning, Collins, Madrigal

2027: Robert, Rutherford, Basabe, Hansen, Adolfo, Burger, Gonzalez

The whole idea is that your whole roster doesn't just go away in one season like what happened with the Royals right after they got good.

Um...because they were called up last year and not this year, everyone other than Anderson on your first line is actually a free agent after 2023.

[ChiSox59]

50 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Um...because they were called up last year and not this year, everyone other than Anderson on your first line is actually a free agent after 2023.

Correct. My mistake. Point still stands. 

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

I keep seeing people say why does 2025 matter when Gio, Lopez and Moncada will all be FA in 2024.  Especially that Patrick Nolan guy on Twitter (man has that dude been a blowhard the past few months).  The whole idea of a rebuild is to have waves of talent.  Avoiding having all your elite talent becoming a FA the same year is important. 

2024: Moncada, Anderson, Gio, Lopez

2025: Eloy and Kopech

2026: Cease, Dunning, Collins, Madrigal

2027: Robert, Rutherford, Basabe, Hansen, Adolfo, Burger, Gonzalez

The whole idea is that your whole roster doesn't just go away in one season like what happened with the Royals right after they got good.

That’s not quite what happened.  Ventura died in a car crash.  Moustakas missed a full season due to injury.  Alex Gordon completely fell apart, Cain and Perez were injured, too.   But they had a similar core for 2016 and most of 2017.  A lot of it was bad luck, similar to the 2006 White Sox, although that team had a better record than KC by far.

The biggest point was losing rentals like Zobrist and Cueto to FA...along with the position player injuries, and loss of bullpen depth due attrition and just getting too expensive (Davis and Holland over two consecutive years...but also Madson and Blanton.)

This offseason, when they Hosmer and Cain, they were already dead men walking.

Edited August 7, 2018 by caulfield12

[ScootsMcGoots]

So is everyone going to be pissed off if Eloy gets the call this week? I understand the argument and everything, and I'm of the opinion if they are calling him up this year then what the hell are they waiting for, but it just seems like there will be absolutely no excitement if he gets the call. Kind of depressing to be honest.

[SonofaRoache]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

I keep seeing people say why does 2025 matter when Gio, Lopez and Moncada will all be FA in 2024.  Especially that Patrick Nolan guy on Twitter (man has that dude been a blowhard the past few months).  The whole idea of a rebuild is to have waves of talent.  Avoiding having all your elite talent becoming a FA the same year is important. 

2024: Moncada, Anderson, Gio, Lopez

2025: Eloy and Kopech

2026: Cease, Dunning, Collins, Madrigal

2027: Robert, Rutherford, Basabe, Hansen, Adolfo, Burger, Gonzalez

The whole idea is that your whole roster doesn't just go away in one season like what happened with the Royals right after they got good.

Orrrrrr. Our front office can do their jobs and resign core guys while drafting and signing solid replacements for the defectors. 

[Dick Allen]

41 minutes ago, Scoots said:

So is everyone going to be pissed off if Eloy gets the call this week? I understand the argument and everything, and I'm of the opinion if they are calling him up this year then what the hell are they waiting for, but it just seems like there will be absolutely no excitement if he gets the call. Kind of depressing to be honest.

If they are going to call them up this season it should be before they play another minor league game. To call them up in September is trading one month of meaningless games for an extra season of control, Maybe, possibly, perhaps, no one will give a crap about the extra year of control 6years from now, but a month of meaningless games is a cheap price to pay for insurance in case they might.

[ScootsMcGoots]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If they are going to call them up this season it should be before they play another minor league game. To call them up in September is trading one month of meaningless games for an extra season of control, Maybe, possibly, perhaps, no one will give a crap about the extra year of control 6years from now, but a month of meaningless games is a cheap price to pay for insurance in case they might.

I understand that. That's basically what everyone else is saying just in a different way. And I agree. Call him up this week or don't at all. Kind of aggravated they called up LaMarre and he's playing LEFT FIELD tonight. But... It seems like if he is called up in, idk, 3 weeks, everyone is going to be angry and beside themselves. Even if I wouldn't necessarily agree with it, I would wholeheartedly enjoy the short moments I get to see him play in Chicago this year.