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KW on Jimenez/Kopech


Jose Abreu

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Look at the bright side to waiting until about the third week of April 2019 to call up Eloy... we will likely hear some outlandish excuses towards the end of ST 2019 for the Sox sending Eloy to Charlotte to "work on a few things" before finally being called up.

I normally don't rail on the front office but they really have stepped on their own peckers.

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38 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If Jimenez had a couple hundred more plate appearances above A ball, and he was doing this, they would have to call him up, but why do it if you don't have to? I thought rebuilds were about patience. Be patient, get the extra year of control. If he spends an extra month in AAA, it isn't going to make him a bad player, and if it somehow did, something else would have anyway.

So why did they rush Moncada to the big leagues when his numbers in AAA were no where near this dominant? He's a free agent after 2023 because they brought him up last year. Why are they playing this game with the guy who would hit free agency later, not the guy who would be the first big acquisition to get there?

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8 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Remind me again...how do September call-ups impact service time?  Would calling them up in September cost the club an extra year of control if they broke camp on opening day rosters next year?  

Bringing him up in September is the same as bringing him up on Opening day next year. Bringing him up right now is also the same as opening day next year. To gain an extra year of control, they would need to send a player to the minors for about the first 2 weeks of next season, so no September callup in that case nor could he break camp with the big league team.

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3 hours ago, GreenSox said:

Depends on how you value defense.  Leury misses catchable balls out there.
Anyway, the work by the Birmingham and Charlotte coaches seems to have been exquisite so at least he should continue to learn down there.

How did you reach that conclusion?  I think Eloy has the natural talent regardless of the coaching staff.  If the coaches in Birmingham and Charlotte get credit for Eloy, do they lose it for Jacob May?

I think Hahn has a timeline for Eloy and we will just have to wait for his arrival. 

 

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18 minutes ago, BlackSox13 said:

Look at the bright side to waiting until about the third week of April 2019 to call up Eloy... we will likely hear some outlandish excuses towards the end of ST 2019 for the Sox sending Eloy to Charlotte to "work on a few things" before finally being called up.

I normally don't rail on the front office but they really have stepped on their own peckers.

Blame the CBA not the FO.  It's a smart FO move to get an extra year of control of a potential superstar, I will never fault them for that in a rebuilding year.  

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1 minute ago, jenksycat said:

Blame the CBA not the FO.  It's a smart FO move to get an extra year of control of a potential superstar, I will never fault them for that in a rebuilding year.  

I have no problem with gaining the extra year of control, it's the lame rationale Hahn is giving to the media. Literally nobody is buying it. IIRC the Sox did something similar with Yoan last year before calling him up.

Personally I feel they have been waiting until they see if they can move an outfielder or two today. I really don't think the Sox will wait until next year.

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26 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So why did they rush Moncada to the big leagues when his numbers in AAA were no where near this dominant? He's a free agent after 2023 because they brought him up last year. Why are they playing this game with the guy who would hit free agency later, not the guy who would be the first big acquisition to get there?

So you say Moncada was rushed. He has over 200 more plate appearances above A ball than Eloy. And he still got into a lot of games last year. And what did that do for him? Learning from your mistakes is a strength, not a weakness. Give Hahn credit for doing that, although it was not exactly the same thing. 

Edited by Dick Allen
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7 minutes ago, BlackSox13 said:

I have no problem with gaining the extra year of control, it's the lame rationale Hahn is giving to the media. Literally nobody is buying it. IIRC the Sox did something similar with Yoan last year before calling him up.

Personally I feel they have been waiting until they see if they can move an outfielder or two today. I really don't think the Sox will wait until next year.

I'd be shocked if he's healthy and not on the Sox by mid-August

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Just now, Dick Allen said:

So you say Moncada was rushed. He has over 200 more plate appearances above A ball than Eloy. And he still got into a lot of games last year. And what did that do for him? Learning from your mistakes is a strength, not a weakness.

No, you said that. The post I quoted from you just justified why the White Sox should "Be patient, get the extra year of control" with Eloy Jiminez. Your words, copied and pasted, no change in context, you just argued for doing that to get the extra year of control with Jiminez. The White Sox could have done that with Moncada and chose not to. Based on your standard, using your words, the White Sox were "impatient". Why were they so impatient with Moncada? 

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2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

No, you said that. The post I quoted from you just justified why the White Sox should "Be patient, get the extra year of control" with Eloy Jiminez. Your words, copied and pasted, no change in context, you just argued for doing that to get the extra year of control with Jiminez. The White Sox could have done that with Moncada and chose not to. Based on your standard, using your words, the White Sox were "impatient". Why were they so impatient with Moncada? 

I also mentioned plate appearances, which you conveniently ignored. Go back and read again. I said if Eloy had a couple of hundred more and he was doing this, they would have to call him up. I am being consistent. You are arguing to argue. I have money invested in White Sox tickets. I would love to watch Eloy play this year, but I know its the wrong thing to do. This isn't a franchise that dances with the luxury tax, and if half the guys here are half as good as hoped, and they spend on all these free agents, that extra year of control will be critical. Yoan will be reaching bigger paydays when these younger guys are still making peanuts. Another bit of a difference.

Edited by Dick Allen
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32 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Bringing him up in September is the same as bringing him up on Opening day next year. Bringing him up right now is also the same as opening day next year. To gain an extra year of control, they would need to send a player to the minors for about the first 2 weeks of next season, so no September callup in that case nor could he break camp with the big league team.

If he is a September call up then the Sox would have to wait an extra 30 days or so to call him up next season right? So for example, instead of April 15 it would be May 15 and they would still have the extra year of control?

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8 minutes ago, Jake said:

I'll say this: I don't think it's remotely unreasonable to say that Eloy is better prepared to hit MLB pitching than Yoan was at this point a year ago.

I wouldn't doubt it either, but there is a difference. And using that as a measuring stick isn't realistic. He probably could hit better than Adam Engel while he was in A ball. But no one would have wanted him called up.  Let him finish the next month in Charlotte, take a break, maybe play some winter ball, and go back to Charlotte for a couple of weeks next year, and get the extra year. At this point, it is really shortsighted to not do that. If anything, it's a complement to the player. They know the rules. He's more than aware what can happen. 

Everyone gets on the White Sox when they miss a loophole. Yet, here's one they appear to be taking full advantage, and people are still complaining.

The new toy will still be new next April. 

Edited by Dick Allen
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3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I wouldn't doubt it either, but there is a difference. Let him finish the next month in Charlotte, take a break, maybe play some winter ball, and go back to Charlotte for a couple of weeks next year, and get the extra year. At this point, it is really shortsighted to not do that. If anything, it's a complement to the player. They know the rules. He's more than aware what can happen. 

Everyone gets on the White Sox when they miss a loophole. Yet, here's one they appear to be taking full advantage, and people are still complaining.

The new toy will still be new next April. 

And yet the White Sox didn't take advantage of that loophole with Moncada and you're totally ok with that for some confusing reason. 

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8 minutes ago, Jake said:

I'll say this: I don't think it's remotely unreasonable to say that Eloy is better prepared to hit MLB pitching than Yoan was at this point a year ago.

In those 370 plate appearances above A ball, Eloy has an OPS of 1.000. Moncada comes out to around .850 above A-ball in 568 plate appearances I could easily tell you which of those 2 I think deserved an earlier callup from those numbers. One of them is pretty weak for earning a callup, one of them is destroying things. 

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1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

And yet the White Sox didn't take advantage of that loophole with Moncada and you're totally ok with that for some confusing reason. 

Again, I answered it. You chose to ignore my full post and explanation. And there are plenty more. Moncada was going to be playing for a bad White Sox team anyway. 

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5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

 I wouldn't doubt it either, but there is a difference. Let him finish the next month in Charlotte, take a break, maybe play some winter ball, and go back to Charlotte for a couple of weeks next year, and get the extra year. At this point, it is really shortsighted to not do that. If anything, it's a complement to the player. They know the rules. He's more than aware what can happen. 

Everyone gets on the White Sox when they miss a loophole. Yet, here's one they appear to be taking full advantage, and people are still complaining.

The new toy will still be new next April. 

What do you do when his slash line becomes .450/.500/900 in Charlotte? Do you still keep him there?

 

The Kris Bryant example doesn't work because Bryant wasn't doing nearly as well in AAA as Eloy is. Not to mention Eloy almost has as many walks as strikeouts down there. If this continues, Eloy would have a pretty legitimate grievance against us. 

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Just now, Dick Allen said:

Again, I answered it. You chose to ignore my full post and explanation. And there are plenty more. Moncada was going to be playing for a bad White Sox team anyway. 

So the White Sox should take advantage of loopholes always with the exception of times when they don't, because 200 plate appearances outweigh those loopholes. Like I said, your explanation is nonsense. 

If they're going to push this so far with the guy demolishing the minor leagues just to get the extra year of control, the loophole you say they should have taken advantage of, they should absolutely have taken advantage of that loophole for the guy with an OPS of .825 in AAA mid-season. You're doing a great job of illustrating how silly it is to take advantage of the loophole here when they didn't earlier.

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26 minutes ago, BlackSox13 said:

I have no problem with gaining the extra year of control, it's the lame rationale Hahn is giving to the media. Literally nobody is buying it. IIRC the Sox did something similar with Yoan last year before calling him up.

Personally I feel they have been waiting until they see if they can move an outfielder or two today. I really don't think the Sox will wait until next year.

This is what I think too. I understand why people want to see him down until mid-April next year, but I just don't see that happening.

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3 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

What do you do when his slash line becomes .450/.500/900 in Charlotte? Do you still keep him there?

 

The Kris Bryant example doesn't work because Bryant wasn't doing nearly as well in AAA as Eloy is. Not to mention Eloy almost has as many walks as strikeouts down there. If this continues, Eloy would have a pretty legitimate grievance against us. 

Kris Bryant in 2014, (when he went back to AAA to start 2015)

AA 297 plate appearances .355/.458/.702

AAA 297 plate appearances .295/.418/.619

 

Combined

594 plate appearances .325/.438/.661

 

I think the example works fine 

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4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So the White Sox should take advantage of loopholes always with the exception of times when they don't, because 200 plate appearances outweigh those loopholes. Like I said, your explanation is nonsense. 

If they're going to push this so far with the guy demolishing the minor leagues just to get the extra year of control, the loophole you say they should have taken advantage of, they should absolutely have taken advantage of that loophole for the guy with an OPS of .825 in AAA mid-season. You're doing a great job of illustrating how silly it is to take advantage of the loophole here when they didn't earlier.

So your argument is because they didn't before, they should never do so again. That makes no sense and you know it.

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