KW on Jimenez/Kopech

[Quin]

23 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

That's where I'm drawing the line. I am not stupid enough to think $68 million will be their record free agent contract much longer, but will they go into the Harper, Machado, Arenado stratosphere? That is one I just can't see.

Maybe not, but hypothetically Eloy in 7 years?

Also the Sox would always rush prospects...until now.

[ChiSox59]

40 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

The Sox would never enter a full-scale, proper rebuild.

Then they did.

 

They'd also never make a major, franchise-altering trade with the Cubs.

Then they did.

 

I definitely get the impression that Hahn takes these "the White Sox would never _____" comments as a challenge. Now it's that the Sox would never sign a stud free agent to a record-breaking contract. We'll see about that in the next couple offseasons. 

THE WHITE SOX WILL NEVER SIGN BRYCE HARPER OR MANNY MACHADO THIS OFFSEASON!!!!!!

 

C'mon Rick....prove me wrong! 

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

That's where I'm drawing the line. I am not stupid enough to think $68 million will be their record free agent contract much longer, but will they go into the Harper, Machado, Arenado stratosphere? That is one I just can't see.

I agree. Not that it's a bad thing though. How many of the "record contracts" truly work out.

[Jose Abreu]

Pat

1:11

How many more boxes does Eloy have to check?  Is this a service time game Rick Hahn is playing?

 

Keith Law

1:11

What service time game? If he's not calling Jimenez up now, he'd have to wait until mid-April next year. That's a long time to stall a guy's development just to get an extra year of control at some point after the world ends.

 

 

[TaylorStSox]

The idea that feasting on AAA pitching somehow hurts a player's development is pretty alien to me. I wouldn't call an extra year of a potential superstar as "just a year." It's not like we have unlimited resources. I just don't see why you would bring him up to play on a terrible team and sacrifice that extra year when it's not going to make a bit of a difference. Sure, I'd love to watch him every day, but I'd love it a whole lot more if I had an extra prime year when the team is actually good. 

[Jose Abreu]

John

1:49

So you’re saying you’d rather have Eloy in the majors for the rest of this season and next April instead of having him for the 2025 season? Why?

 

Keith Law

1:50

2025? Where will you be then? What kind of team will the White Sox be at that point? Who's the GM? The owner? Meanwhile, if you have a player whose development appears to require a promotion to the majors, you're merely wasting time if you leave that guy in the minors. (I feel more strongly this way with pitchers, since projecting any pitcher to stay healthy for seven years is like playing roulette with a crooked croupier.)

[raBBit]

2 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

John

1:49

So you’re saying you’d rather have Eloy in the majors for the rest of this season and next April instead of having him for the 2025 season? Why?

 

Keith Law

1:50

2025? Where will you be then? What kind of team will the White Sox be at that point? Who's the GM? The owner? Meanwhile, if you have a player whose development appears to require a promotion to the majors, you're merely wasting time if you leave that guy in the minors. (I feel more strongly this way with pitchers, since projecting any pitcher to stay healthy for seven years is like playing roulette with a crooked croupier.)

On April 20th of 2019 if you are running the White Sox do you want to have Kopech/Jimenez with 6 years of control or 5 years of control? The ramifications involved with this situation aren't nearly as far out as Law is presenting. 

Edited August 1, 2018 by raBBit

[ptatc]

5 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

The idea that feasting on AAA pitching somehow hurts a player's development is pretty alien to me. I wouldn't call an extra year of a potential superstar as "just a year." It's not like we have unlimited resources. I just don't see why you would bring him up to play on a terrible team and sacrifice that extra year when it's not going to make a bit of a difference. Sure, I'd love to watch him every day, but I'd love it a whole lot more if I had an extra prime year when the team is actually good. 

The way it can hurt or stall the development is that most professional athletes are very competitive by nature. The will thrive and develop better with challenges. You hear it as they progress through the minors when a player is ready for the next challenge. To blatantly not promote someone if they are ready for the next challenge may deter their progress.

Think of an engineer being told to just do data entry and held back from promotions because of it. Is that worker going to be productive and willing to go the extra mile for the company? 

This all being said I don't think too many people on this board know him well enough to know if this is the case. Hopefully, the Sox FO does

[ptatc]

5 minutes ago, raBBit said:

On April 20th of 2019 if you are running the White Sox do you want to have Kopech/Jimenez with 6 years of control or 5 years of control? The ramifications involved with this situation aren't nearly as far out as Law is presenting. 

I do agree with his comments about pitching. Some pitchers only have so many pitches in that arm. IF that pitcher is deemed ready, don't waste them in the minors.

I think this is more true with the Sox. They seem to want to try to sign their young players to extensions early on, like they did with Anderson. If this is the case the extra year of control doesn't really matter.

Edited August 1, 2018 by ptatc

[raBBit]

Just now, ptatc said:

I do agree with his comments about pitching. Some pitchers only have so many pitches in that arm. IF that pitcher is deemed ready, don't waste them in the minors.

Totally. I was ready to call up Kopech in May. Now it's harder to rationalize. Also, Kopech has 15 innings til he reaches his innings number from last year. How many more innings do they have in store? In any case, I agree with your/Law's point generally speaking, but I think at this point in time, Kopech's situation is an exception to the rule of sorts. 

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, raBBit said:

Totally. I was ready to call up Kopech in May. Now it's harder to rationalize. Also, Kopech has 15 innings til he reaches his innings number from last year. How many more innings do they have in store? In any case, I agree with your/Law's point generally speaking, but I think at this point in time, Kopech's situation is an exception to the rule of sorts. 

This is true for Kopech especially if they are going to have the innings limit. I was referring to the concept in general.

[ChiSox59]

2 hours ago, oneofthemikes said:

 

19 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

The idea that feasting on AAA pitching somehow hurts a player's development is pretty alien to me. I wouldn't call an extra year of a potential superstar as "just a year." It's not like we have unlimited resources. I just don't see why you would bring him up to play on a terrible team and sacrifice that extra year when it's not going to make a bit of a difference. Sure, I'd love to watch him every day, but I'd love it a whole lot more if I had an extra prime year when the team is actually good. 

Mmmhmmm. 

Eloy has 101 AAA t bats.  273 AA at bats.  So he has less than 375 at bats above A ball.  And has missed decent chunks of the last 2 seasons due to injury.  This isn't some travesty.

If Eloy continues to absolutely rake, its going to be tough to continue to spin the story.  But I don't think the White Sox are doing some grave misjustice to the kid, or severely hampering his development.   That's a bit over the top, IMO. 

 

[ChiSox59]

9 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I do agree with his comments about pitching. Some pitchers only have so many pitches in that arm. IF that pitcher is deemed ready, don't waste them in the minors.

I think this is more true with the Sox. They seem to want to try to sign their young players to extensions early on, like they did with Anderson. If this is the case the extra year of control doesn't really matter.

Generally top 5 ELITE ELITE prospects don't sign early career extensions.  The list is very short.  

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Generally top 5 ELITE ELITE prospects don't sign early career extensions.  The list is very short.  

True but no one knows if he will show that in the MLB early on. It's a gamble for the Sox.

If he plays well, try to sign him. If he p,says average to poorly the Sox will be glad he came up earlier to get the struggles out of the way so he will be good when they want to be competitive.

Edited August 1, 2018 by ptatc

[Wanne]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

THE WHITE SOX WILL NEVER SIGN BRYCE HARPER OR MANNY MACHADO THIS OFFSEASON!!!!!!

 

C'mon Rick....prove me wrong! 

nor should they.  personally if they're going to throw a ton of quiche at somebody...I MUCH rather it be at Arenado.

[G&T]

10 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I do agree with his comments about pitching. Some pitchers only have so many pitches in that arm. IF that pitcher is deemed ready, don't waste them in the minors.

I think this is more true with the Sox. They seem to want to try to sign their young players to extensions early on, like they did with Anderson. If this is the case the extra year of control doesn't really matter.

 

This exactly. The day Eloy comes up they will have an extension ready for him. Anyway, no player comes to the majors as a finished product, and the Sox are rebuilding. His defense in 2018 is irrelevant and may never be relevant. He needs to see major league pitching.

[bmags]

Gotta say, regarding this whole thing, if they weren't gonna promote him this year they ought to have left him in birmingham until august. His numbers were great there but had more flags than charlotte. 

[ScootsMcGoots]

9 minutes ago, Wanne said:

nor should they.  personally if they're going to throw a ton of quiche at somebody...I MUCH rather it be at Arenado.

Agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Best 3B in the league, both in Offense and Defense. Is there another elite level 3B out there that will be available in the next few years? Not like we have any in our system. Unless we do something like move Moncada to 3B and play Madrigal at 2B. Can't count on Burger. If only one of Eloy/Robert/Rutherfod/Basabe were a third baseman.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Scoots

[TaylorStSox]

26 minutes ago, ptatc said:

The way it can hurt or stall the development is that most professional athletes are very competitive by nature. The will thrive and develop better with challenges. You hear it as they progress through the minors when a player is ready for the next challenge. To blatantly not promote someone if they are ready for the next challenge may deter their progress.

Think of an engineer being told to just do data entry and held back from promotions because of it. Is that worker going to be productive and willing to go the extra mile for the company? 

This all being said I don't think too many people on this board know him well enough to know if this is the case. Hopefully, the Sox FO does

Give me an example of when this has ever happened to an actual player. 

[zisk]

30 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

John

1:49

So you’re saying you’d rather have Eloy in the majors for the rest of this season and next April instead of having him for the 2025 season? Why?

 

Keith Law

1:50

2025? Where will you be then? What kind of team will the White Sox be at that point? Who's the GM? The owner? Meanwhile, if you have a player whose development appears to require a promotion to the majors, you're merely wasting time if you leave that guy in the minors. (I feel more strongly this way with pitchers, since projecting any pitcher to stay healthy for seven years is like playing roulette with a crooked croupier.)

So you're saying theirs a chance? What was all that 1 in a 1,000,000 talk?

[Jose Abreu]

3 minutes ago, Scoots said:

Is there another elite level 3B out there that will be available in the next few years?

Machado

[FloydBannister1983]

3 hours ago, Jose Abreu said:

They'd also never make a major, franchise-altering trade with the Cubs.

Then they did.

 

I definitely get the impression that Hahn takes these "the White Sox would never _____" comments as a challenge. Now it's that the Sox would never sign a stud free agent to a record-breaking contract. We'll see about that in the next couple offseasons. 

 

Sammy Sosa and George Bell called to say hello.  Jon Garland as well.

 

Experiment ...  The White Sox will never, ever upgrade their current front office.

 

[TaylorStSox]

Keith Law's reasoning is that the world might end. He's such a douchebag. I bet his wife can't stand him either. 

[TaylorStSox]

Just now, Jose Abreu said:

Sosa was a trade, and Bell was 32. None of those are even comparable to Machado/Harper/Arenado and $300 million+

He's talking about trades with the Cubs. 

[FloydBannister1983]

1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said:

Sosa was a trade, and Bell was 32. None of those are even comparable to Machado/Harper/Arenado and $300 million+

 

I'm sorry I must have read wrong.  I thought you said "They'd also never make a major, franchise-altering trade with the Cubs."  I'd consider Sosa for Bell a major, franchise-altering trade with the Cubs.