Jose Abreu Posted August 1, 2018 Author Share Posted August 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: He's talking about trades with the Cubs. My bad. Either way, I wouldn't put those on the same scale as the Quintana trade. Of course, Sosa became Sosa in hindsight, but in terms of future impact spread out among both teams, this trade has more potential Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 46 minutes ago, raBBit said: On April 20th of 2019 if you are running the White Sox do you want to have Kopech/Jimenez with 6 years of control or 5 years of control? The ramifications involved with this situation aren't nearly as far out as Law is presenting. But to the individual player it is still a pretty big open point. It is one thing if he was ready at spring training and you hold him out 3 weeks...it to me is a whole other thing when a guy is ready in July and you are holding him out basically 3 months (or the equivalent of half a season). That said, none of us know the dialogue the Sox have had with Jimenez nor know what they think he still has to work on, etc. There could be legitimate developmental reasons that when combined with starting the clock, drive the Sox to believe it is the best thing to hold him out until mid April. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 37 minutes ago, raBBit said: Totally. I was ready to call up Kopech in May. Now it's harder to rationalize. Also, Kopech has 15 innings til he reaches his innings number from last year. How many more innings do they have in store? In any case, I agree with your/Law's point generally speaking, but I think at this point in time, Kopech's situation is an exception to the rule of sorts. I agree with you completely on Kopech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrlesque Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 48 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said: John 1:49 So you’re saying you’d rather have Eloy in the majors for the rest of this season and next April instead of having him for the 2025 season? Why? Keith Law 1:50 2025? Where will you be then? What kind of team will the White Sox be at that point? Who's the GM? The owner? Meanwhile, if you have a player whose development appears to require a promotion to the majors, you're merely wasting time if you leave that guy in the minors. (I feel more strongly this way with pitchers, since projecting any pitcher to stay healthy for seven years is like playing roulette with a crooked croupier.) Law can be crass, but I agree with the general premise here. The near-term future is more certain/predictable than 2025, when there will be tons of unforeseen developments, possibilities and priorities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 Just now, Buehrlesque said: Law can be crass, but I agree with the general premise here. The near-term future is more certain/predictable than 2025, when there will be tons of unforeseen developments, possibilities and priorities. His point works against his own logic. What we do know is that the Chicago White Sox absolutely suck right now. Eloy Jimenez doesn't change that. That's not a prediction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Buehrlesque said: Law can be crass, but I agree with the general premise here. The near-term future is more certain/predictable than 2025, when there will be tons of unforeseen developments, possibilities and priorities. If the Sox were in contention, I would agree. But they are playing out the string. September games mean jack. We have been fooled so many times by outstanding September performances. How did they help Josh Fields and Jerry Owens and Brent Morel, and Lucas Giolito? If Eloy isn't going to be great, it won't be because they waiting until next year to call him up I know the team sucks now and the games are meaningless. At worst, the Sox are in the same situation in 7 years, and Eloy may not be a guy you really need that extra year at that point. I'll take the gamble. If he's going to be great, you think when he's 28 he should be peaking. Edited August 1, 2018 by Dick Allen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 16 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: Give me an example of when this has ever happened to an actual player. I really dont have one as the whole "don't promote them even if they are ready" is new. Kris Bryant is the first case I can think of so we'll see. However, is that a chance you want to take? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrlesque Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 1 minute ago, TaylorStSox said: His point works against his own logic. What we do know is that the Chicago White Sox absolutely suck right now. Eloy Jimenez doesn't change that. That's not a prediction. I agree the Sox suck right now, and that Eloy won't change that or "save" 2018. But getting two plus months of development now will make him better in 2019 and 2020, when the Sox may not suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 Just now, ptatc said: I really dont have one as the whole "don't promote them even if they are ready" is new. Kris Bryant is the first case I can think of so we'll see. However, is that a chance you want to take? I would take the risk because I don't believe that an extra 2 months of staying in AAA does anything to hurt him. I disagree with the theory. I could just as easily use a baseless theory by saying I don't want him up on a loser big league club with a loser culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: His point works against his own logic. What we do know is that the Chicago White Sox absolutely suck right now. Eloy Jimenez doesn't change that. That's not a prediction. Nothing they do with any prospect should be predicated on how the MLB is performing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 Just now, ptatc said: Nothing they do with any prospect should be predicated on how the MLB is performing. Again, if you want to use that theory, you have to give me examples of players staying in AAA and having it alter their progress. Otherwise, it's baseless speculation and I don't subscribe to that theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, ptatc said: I really dont have one as the whole "don't promote them even if they are ready" is new. Kris Bryant is the first case I can think of so we'll see. However, is that a chance you want to take? Bryant isn't the only one. George Springer, Carlos Correa. Francisco Lindor...all were held back for either the extra year or Super 2. It didn't crush their development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 This is really easy for me. It really is a no brainer. 1. Two months on a terrible team. or 2. An extra year on a potentially good team and/or another year of protection for trade value. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 1 minute ago, TaylorStSox said: I would take the risk because I don't believe that an extra 2 months of staying in AAA does anything to hurt him. I disagree with the theory. I could just as easily use a baseless theory by saying I don't want him up on a loser big league club with a loser culture. That's true. They need to look at all of those factors physical, mental and emotional development as a player. Just depends on what they think has the highest priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted August 1, 2018 Author Share Posted August 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Bryant isn't the only one. George Springer, Carlos Correa. Francisco Lindor...all were held back for either the extra year or Super 2. It didn't crush their development. But Lindor and Correa weren't exactly setting the world on fire in AAA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 On 7/31/2018 at 7:37 AM, Balta1701 said: What's frustrating me is that they had a much better excuse to keep Moncada down last year, his numbers were no where near like Jiminez's numbers right now, and yet it seems like theyr'e going to play the service time game here but they didn't with Moncada. Could that be because when Boston called him up his service clock had already started? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: Again, if you want to use that theory, you have to give me examples of players staying in AAA and having it alter their progress. Otherwise, it's baseless speculation and I don't subscribe to that theory. Its not baseless as all individuals are different. If you have only one prescribed way to handle every single prospect, you are doing them all a disservice. My person al theory is that they know the players better than we do and should progress them as they develop. I could turn the same question around to you. Give me a specific example where staying down did not hurt their development? You can't because it really hasn't been done except for Kris Bryant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 1 minute ago, ptatc said: Its not baseless as all individuals are different. If you have only one prescribed way to handle every single prospect, you are doing them all a disservice. My person al theory is that they know the players better than we do and should progress them as they develop. I could turn the same question around to you. Give me a specific example where staying down did not hurt their development? You can't because it really hasn't been done except for Kris Bryant. Okay. In that case, maybe we should reserve judgement since none of know a single thing about Eloy Jimenez. The other issue is that what's good for the Chicago White Sox is more important than what's good for Eloy Jimenez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 Acuna of the Braves had it happen this year. He's still doing OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 35 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: Keith Law's reasoning is that the world might end. He's such a douchebag. I bet his wife can't stand him either. Yah, pretty shitty logic IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Bryant isn't the only one. George Springer, Carlos Correa. Francisco Lindor...all were held back for either the extra year or Super 2. It didn't crush their development. All those players were brought up early to mid season during their first year. Unless the were truly ready the previous year, those really don't apply. I've said all along that they should wait until the next contract deadline to bring players up. A full year is a waste a month or so isn't. They are quickly approaching the time where Jimenez should just stay down. Kopech probably has reached that time with the innings limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Acuna of the Braves had it happen this year. He's still doing OK. They didn't wait a full year for Acuna. He came up about a quarter into the season. You keep using examples that don't apply here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 Just now, ptatc said: They didn't wait a full year for Acuna. He came up about a quarter into the season. You keep using examples that don't apply here. They all apply because the team waited until the next season to call them up. Any of those guys get September cups of coffee, they lose a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 10 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: Could that be because when Boston called him up his service clock had already started? That wouldn't matter since he doesn't accrue service time in the minors. I did always wonder if he wasn't on the 40 last year if he would have come up at all last year (Red Sox added him to their 40 a season prior so he had to be on ours). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted August 1, 2018 Author Share Posted August 1, 2018 Just now, ChiSox59 said: They all apply because the team waited until the next season to call them up. Any of those guys get September cups of coffee, they lose a year. Aside from Acuna and Springer, those guys were not good at AAA. Totally different situations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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