KW on Jimenez/Kopech

[ptatc]

6 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Okay. In that case, maybe we should reserve judgement since none of know a single thing about Eloy Jimenez. 

 

The other issue is that what's good for the Chicago White Sox is more important than what's good for Eloy Jimenez. 

Part of it is reserving judgement  the other part is just what you believe is best for the player development in general, challenging them or being very conservative.

What is best for the White Sox may be to have the player happy and treat him appropriately as opposed to just another number.

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

They didn't wait a full year for Acuna. He came up about a quarter into the season. You keep using examples that don't apply here.

Take George Spring for example.  He debuted in 2014 after 55 minor league at bats.  In 2013, he slashed .303/.411/.600 across AA and AAA,  You don't think he could have played in bigs at the end of 2013, or to start 2014???

IT IS LITERALLY THE EXACT SAME THING.  

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, ptatc said:

They didn't wait a full year for Acuna. He came up about a quarter into the season. You keep using examples that don't apply here.

We aren't talking a full year here. Right now, if he is called up today, it's less than 2 months, on a bad team, playing meaningless, AAA-like games. Acuna put up big numbers last year and didn't get the call up. Despite dominating Spring Training, he was sent back to AAA. It didn't screw him up forever.

 

The only argument against is it will hurt his development. Yet there are no obvious examples of someone being kept at AAA too long, having it ruin his career.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Dick Allen

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

They all apply because the team waited until the next season to call them up.  Any of those guys get September cups of coffee, they lose a year.  

The Astros wanted to bring Acuna up at age 19? Was he truly ready at that time? This only applies if they were considered ready at the time.

[ChiSox59]

3 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

Aside from Acuna and Springer, those guys were not good at AAA. Totally different situations 

Meh.  Lindor slashed .276/.338/.389 in 2014, his last full year in the minors.  He did about the same (only slightly better) in 1/2 season the next year before getting the call.  I wouldn't say that isn't good.  

[ChiSox59]

Just now, ptatc said:

The Astros wanted to bring Acuna up at age 19? Was he truly ready at that time? This only applies if they were considered ready at the time.

Look at my Springer post. Same circumstances. 

[Jose Abreu]

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

Meh.  Lindor slashed .276/.338/.389 in 2014, his last full year in the minors.  He did about the same (only slightly better) in 1/2 season the next year before getting the call.  I wouldn't say that isn't good.  

That's his entire year slash though. In AAA specifically he was at .273/.307/.388, a .695 OPS. If Eloy had a .695 OPS right now I would not be clamoring for him to be called up. 

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

We aren't talking a full year here. Right now, if he is called up today, it's less than 2 months, on a bad team, playing meaningless, AAA-like games. Acuna put up big numbers last year and didn't get the call up. Despite dominating Spring Training, he was sent back to AAA. It didn't screw him up forever.

 

The only argument against is it will hurt his development. Yet there are no obvious examples of someone being kept at AAA too long, having it ruin his career.

There are no examples because no one has really done it. Except for Bryant and possibly a couple more. Most teams treat their players better than that.  

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Look at my Springer post. Same circumstances. 

Again, did they truly think he was ready at in July the previous year, where he should have been called up?

Even if he is a true case we are talking about 2 or 3 players is that enough for you to base the development on your hopeful future star? Or should you just go with if you think he's  ready?

You may be willing to take that chance. That's  fine. I would not take that chance on my, what looks to be, franchise player.

[Dick Allen]

8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

The Astros wanted to bring Acuna up at age 19? Was he truly ready at that time? This only applies if they were considered ready at the time.

Acuna was with the Braves. Look at his numbers last year. Are you saying he wasn't ready for a September call up? 

They hold these guys out in September and some  until the next Super 2. That is even longer than the Sox will hold out Eloy.

[southsider2k5]

28 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Could that be because when Boston called him up his service clock had already started?

Bingo. The damage was done. 

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Acuna was with the Braves. Look at his numbers last year. Are you saying he wasn't ready for a September call up? 

They hold these guys out in September and some  until the next Super 2. That is even longer than the Sox will hold out Eloy.

A September call up is different than playing for a substantial amount of time. I don't think I would do it for just September.  I would do it for August and September. I agree with that.it needs to be a substantial  amount of time.

Edit: I know he has with the braves. I had the springer and correa examples on my brain.

Edited August 1, 2018 by ptatc

[Jose Abreu]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

A September call up is different than playing for a substantial amount of time. I don't think I would do it for just September.  I would do it for August and September. I agree with that.it needs to be a substantial  amount of time.

I think this is the point that is being lost. We aren't talking about a couple weeks in September or 11 days in April, we're talking about 2.5 months of baseball, about half a season, and the player in question is making a joke out of minor league baseball. In all the examples that have been brought up, nobody has been as "ready" as Eloy, in my opinion. Springer and Bryant had major strikeout issues. Lindor and Correa weren't doing that well at AAA. 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Jose Abreu

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Acuna was with the Braves. Look at his numbers last year. Are you saying he wasn't ready for a September call up? 

They hold these guys out in September and some  until the next Super 2. That is even longer than the Sox will hold out Eloy.

I will say this about the deadlinss. As ive said before if they are going to wait until next year. I would wait until the next service deadline, whenever that is, May I believe.

However,I would have brought him up yesterday, if they felt he was ready to get the time in the MLB.

[ChiSox59]

5 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Again, did they truly think he was ready at in July the previous year, where he should have been called up?

Even if he is a true case we are talking about 2 or 3 players is that enough for you to base the development on your hopeful future star? Or should you just go with if you think he's  ready?

You may be willing to take that chance. That's  fine. I would not take that chance on my, what looks to be, franchise player.

HE HAD AN OPS over 1.000.........of course he was "ready".  The Astros clearly were controlling service time, and I am sure they are very happy they didn't make a short sighted decision.

[Dick Allen]

Keep in mind since becoming a professional, Eloy has taken most of September off. It doesn't seem to have slowed him down. I would guess not playing this September would be no different. So now you are talking a month and a half. How long do guys have to wait to get off of Super 2? Seems no one has an issue with that, 

The White Sox suck so bad I understand why everyone wants to see what may be their greatest toy. I would love to see it myself. But hold the horses. Let's think of the future. 

 

I really think if you are so concerned with him playing here and it screwing him up if he is held back, you really aren't so confident in him as a prospect.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Jose Abreu]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

Keep in mind since becoming a professional, Eloy has taken most of September off. It doesn't seem to have slowed him down. I would guess not playing this September would be no different. So now you are talking a month and a half. How long do guys have to wait to get off of Super 2? Seems no one has an issue with that, 

It's not that I don't want to slow him down, it's that I want him to improve. You can't just remove a month from the equation because he usually doesn't play during it. Playing him in September (and August, and April) in the big leagues would do nothing to slow him down.

[raBBit]

39 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Acuna of the Braves had it happen this year. He's still doing OK.

But how much better would he be doing if he had 65 at bats in the bigs last September?

[Dick Allen]

8 minutes ago, raBBit said:

But how much better would he be doing if he had 65 at bats in the bigs last September?

What I don't understand is there is no outrage for holding guys out for Super 2. That's around 65 days service time. Just about equal to what Eloy has to go for the extra year of control. Think of all the would be HOFers this messed up. 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Jose Abreu]

I'm glad you guys are getting your laughs but that's not what we're arguing. About 72 games (for this season and some of next April) times about 4.2 PA/G (White Sox hitters average 4.15 PA/G, and since Jimenez would likely bat somewhere 3-5, he would average more. I'm being generous by only adding the .05) is 303 PAs that Jimenez is not getting at the MLB level.

He's not gonna be a bust or bad player because he isn't getting that experience, but he also is not getting any better by not getting that experience. It's a significant amount of playing time. 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Jose Abreu
math

[Dick Allen]

5 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

I'm glad you guys are getting your laughs but that's not what we're arguing. About 72 games (for this season and some of next April) times about 4.5 PA/G (White Sox hitters average 4.43 PA/G, and since Jimenez would likely bat somewhere 3-5, he would average more. I'm being generous by only adding the .07) is 324 PAs that Jimenez is not getting at the MLB level.

He's not gonna be a bust or bad player because he isn't getting that experience, but he also is not getting any better by not getting that experience. It's a significant amount of playing time. 

And what you will be giving up is control over 162 games when he is 28, which would seem to be when he would be at the top of his game, although there are no guarantees. That's the trade. I'll take the latter.

If they needed him for a WC push, or were going to be stacked next year, that's one thing. I just don't think it's very realistic to think they will be very good in 2019. He'll have plenty of time to develop. 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

52 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Bingo. The damage was done. 

This does not make any sense to me. Being on the 40 man roster does not start your big league service time and does not count towards free agency, only being on the 25 man roster. Had the Sox waited until this May to bring Moncada up, it would have bought them another year with a guy who will probably be harder to sign than Jiminez.

[Jack Parkman]

13 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This does not make any sense to me. Being on the 40 man roster does not start your big league service time and does not count towards free agency, only being on the 25 man roster. Had the Sox waited until this May to bring Moncada up, it would have bought them another year with a guy who will probably be harder to sign than Jiminez.

He has 1 option left. That is why they brought Moncada up last August. He had to start the season in Chicago or he would have had zero options left. They want to make damn sure that they have to use that last one. 

When Moncada was called up in 2016, that was an option year. They sent him to AAA in 2017, that was two. He only has one left, as do Lopez and Giolito. In  1.33 non-competitive years they are all learning on the job even though none of the three are clearly ready. I was b****ing about them bringing up Moncada last year until I realized he had 1 option left. For better or worse, Moncada/Giolito/Lopez are going to have to sink or swim at the MLB level. Going to AAA really isn't an option for them for at least another season or two. 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

He has 1 option left. That is why they brought Moncada up last August. He had to start the season in Chicago or he would have had zero options left. They want to make damn sure that they have to use that last one. 

When Moncada was called up in 2016, that was an option year. They sent him to AAA in 2017, that was two. He only has one left, as do Lopez and Giolito. In  1.33 non-competitive years they are all learning on the job even though none of the three are clearly ready. I was b****ing about them bringing up Moncada last year until I realized he had 1 option left. 

Huh? They want to make "damn sure they have to use that last one"? That also makes no sense. They haven't used it, so what do you mean by "make sure they have to use it"? Are you trying to say "Make sure they have one in reserve just in case they have to use it"? 

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Huh? They want to make "damn sure they have to use that last one"? That also makes no sense. They haven't used it, so what do you mean by "make sure they have to use it"? Are you trying to say "Make sure they have one in reserve just in case they have to use it"? 

Poor word choice, but yes, that is what I meant. What I meant is that they want to have it in the event they have to use it, and they won't use it until they feel they have no other choice. 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Jack Parkman