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Pirates get Archer


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9 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I don't know why those guys supposedly weren't on the table for Quintana during winter of 17 when he hadn't fallen apart yet, and was just coming off his best season but were on the table for Archer, who is a worse pitcher than Quintana was at that time. Seems weird to me. 

Me thinks it worked out OK for the Sox....

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Without knowing who the third piece may be, I think the Pirates actually did pretty well here. Archer should thrive in the NL, and the Pirates have him for 3.5 years. Meadows stocked has faded a great deal and Glasnow evidently cannot be a starter.

Edited by maggsmaggs
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2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I'm not complaining really, but I'm not sure which package I like better tbh. Jimenez being a DH kind of makes this closer than at first glance. 

Glasnow is basically worst case outcome for Cease, as Glasnow is never going to be a starter with his command as well as his complete inability to hold runners. He makes Alec Hansen look like Mark Buehrle. 

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Just now, Jack Parkman said:

I'm not complaining really, but I'm not sure which package I like better tbh. Jimenez being a DH kind of makes this closer than at first glance. 

Eloy's bat more than compensates and at 6'4" and reasonably athletic (albeit maybe slower afoot), could profile as a mashing 1B.  I'd take that over Austin Meadows joining the ranks of Robert, Rutherford, Adolfo, Basabe, Gonzalez, Walker, Call etc in the OF.  And based on progress from last year to this year, Cease >>> Glasnow.

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God how can anyone compare Glasnow and Meadows to Cease and Jimenez. Jimenez is worth 3x that alone and Cease may actually wind up a starter - days that have come and gone for Glasnow*.

*the Rays will assuredly stretch him out and start him and then realize how bad that is the first time he walks 10 guys in a game.

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Just now, Steve9347 said:

God how can anyone compare Glasnow and Meadows to Cease and Jimenez. Jimenez is worth 3x that alone and Cease may actually wind up a starter - days that have come and gone for Glasnow*.

*the Rays will assuredly stretch him out and start him and then realize how bad that is the first time he walks 10 guys in a game.

JParkman has decided today Eloy is the worst outfielder ever.  He's really not.

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1 minute ago, heirdog said:

Eloy's bat more than compensates and at 6'4" and reasonably athletic (albeit maybe slower afoot), could profile as a mashing 1B.  I'd take that over Austin Meadows joining the ranks of Robert, Rutherford, Adolfo, Basabe, Gonzalez, Walker, Call etc in the OF.  And based on progress from last year to this year, Cease >>> Glasnow.

 

2 minutes ago, fathom said:

Glasnow is basically worst case outcome for Cease, as Glasnow is never going to be a starter with his command as well as his complete inability to hold runners. He makes Alec Hansen look like Mark Buehrle. 

I wouldn't have completely written off Glasnow as a starter in the Sox org, he would have been a Coop Special. Look at the progress Giolito has made already, even if he's not quite there yet it's a far cry from the gascan he was to start the season. 

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Just now, Jack Parkman said:

 

I wouldn't have completely written off Glasnow as a starter in the Sox org, he would have been a Coop Special. Look at the progress Giolito has made already, even if he's not quite there yet it's a far cry from the gascan he was to start the season. 

The Pirates pitching coach is fantastic, if he can't fix Glasnow, then it's doubtful Cooper could. 

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1 minute ago, DirtySox said:

I'm sorry, but this is insanity.

I just think that Jimenez being most likely a DH takes away a lot of the value of his bat. I still lean toward Jimenez/Cease because Cease is killing it but we don't know what Glasnow would do with Coop. 

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Just now, Jack Parkman said:

 

I wouldn't have completely written off Glasnow as a starter in the Sox org, he would have been a Coop Special. Look at the progress Giolito has made already, even if he's not quite there yet it's a far cry from the gascan he was to start the season. 

The Pirates pitching coach is also extremely well regarded around the league. It could be a case where what he does was not working for Glasnow, we've seen people like that with Cooper before, but they are typically really good at getting pitchers to come around when they have some talent.

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Just now, Balta1701 said:

The Pirates pitching coach is also extremely well regarded around the league. It could be a case where what he does was not working for Glasnow, we've seen people like that with Cooper before, but they are typically really good at getting pitchers to come around when they have some talent.

My point exactly. 

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1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

 

I wouldn't have completely written off Glasnow as a starter in the Sox org, he would have been a Coop Special. Look at the progress Giolito has made already, even if he's not quite there yet it's a far cry from the gascan he was to start the season. 

We already have our 6'8" giant with control issues...give me the improving Cease all day.

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1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

Don't get me wrong I still like our package better but this is closer than most give it credit for. Maybe I'm letting my disdain for Adam Engel get in the way of better judgment haha. 

Your argument is valid.  As you stated earlier, Quintana while likely a little better, perceived to have similar value at that time to Archer right now and the years of control the same during time of trade.  So it makes sense that the packages are close (as viewed during the respective times of trade).  The fact that both Eloy and Cease have blown up makes this more one-sided in hindsight.  But agree, the package is fantastic from the Rays perspective.

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1 minute ago, heirdog said:

Your argument is valid.  As you stated earlier, Quintana while likely a little better, perceived to have similar value at that time to Archer right now and the years of control the same during time of trade.  So it makes sense that the packages are close (as viewed during the respective times of trade).  The fact that both Eloy and Cease have blown up makes this more one-sided in hindsight.  But agree, the package is fantastic from the Rays perspective.

Right. Eloy, when traded was ranked similarly to Meadows, and Cease had been injured a lot and hadn't progressed much from draft day. Cease wasn't even a top 100 or even 150 when the deal went down. There were tons of questions about whether he could start, and most of the value that both Eloy and Cease have now has been gained since the trade for Quintana. If this deal went down on 7/31/17 I'm not sure that we wouldn't have been complaining that the Rays got more. What a difference a year can make. 

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7 minutes ago, Jake said:

Austin Meadows to me is more comparable to an advanced version of Blake Rutherford

Meadows and Glasnow are assets that are close to deteriorating in value. The Pirates were arguably smart to cash in on them while they are still "prospects". 

Both of them had more value in the winter of 2017 than they do now

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2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Right. Eloy, when traded was ranked similarly to Meadows, and Cease had been injured a lot and hadn't progressed much from draft day. Cease wasn't even a top 100 or even 150 when the deal went down. There were tons of questions about whether he could start, and most of the value that both Eloy and Cease have now has been gained since the trade for Quintana. If this deal went down on 7/31/17 I'm not sure that we wouldn't have been complaining that the Rays got more. What a difference a year can make. 

Eloy/Cease >>> Meadows/Glasnow right now

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5 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

Eloy/Cease >>> Meadows/Glasnow right now

I'm not arguing that Eloy and Cease are better, I agree after more thought. I was more comparing it to if both of these deals were made in 2017. Cease in 2018 puts the Sox deal way over the top. I might be dumb, but I'm not sure whether I like Eloy or Meadows because while Eloy can rake, Meadows can play defense and Eloy might be a 1B/DH. I'm not sure though that Eloy would be any better at 1B than Abreu is now though. His poor defense takes away a ton of his bat's value. 

Edited by Jack Parkman
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8 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I'm not arguing that Eloy and Cease are better, I agree after more thought. I was more comparing it to if both of these deals were made in 2017. Cease in 2018 puts the Sox deal way over the top. I might be dumb, but I'm not sure whether I like Eloy or Meadows because while Eloy can rake, Meadows can play defense and Eloy might be a 1B/DH. I'm not sure though that Eloy would be any better at 1B than Abreu is now though. His poor defense takes away a ton of his bat's value. 

Eloy >>> Meadows without a doubt. 

Despite his defensive shortcomings, his bat has the potential to be a special weapon. a 60/65 hit tool combined with 70+ power is similar to what Giancarlo Stanton is, an offensive force. 

Cease's improvement puts him certainly ahead of Glasnow in value for me. Younger, and more likely to remain in the rotation. 

 

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