Official 2018-19 NFL Thread

[Jack Parkman]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So average QBs can win Super Bowls with great defenses.

 

Yes, that is common knowledge. Read the above addendum. You don't win multiple titles in the NFL without a HOF QB. You get one at most.  There were 2 outliers 30 years apart that pulled it off.  Nobody's goal is to win just one. You know what those teams did have? a QB that was good, but not great, and was also a 1st overall pick. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Middle Buffalo]

27 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Ironically, that was the game that Montana got hurt in, IIRC. 

Montana was 17-29 in the game, and it appears he played the whole game. He played 15/16 games that season. 49ers lost to the Giants in the Wild Card game in 1985.

[Wanne]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

Said great quarterbacking was Joe Montana kicking the 80s Bears ass. All time QB vs All time Defensive group. Montana 3, Bears Defense 0.  

pretty sure he was referring to the Bears winning a Super Bowl with fairly mediocre gunslinger.  You can take whatever position you want...but you're pretty much in the 1% now with that train of thought.  And look at it this way...look who the Bears #1 pick this past year gets to learn from now.  His work ethic....tendencies...etc.   But you'd rather have those two picks in case you're in a position to draft a HOF QB.  Every QB you draft is a craps role. There's no sure things....and this ain't the 80s.

Hell...if the Bears didn't have Bray on the PS...I'd have snatched up Luke Falk.  I think he's perfect for this O.   You need a serviceable QB...controls the ball...and doesn't lose you games.  I really don't get what you're argument even is anymore?  Is it about you're unhappy with Trubisky?...so I hate the Mack trade?  mkaaaaay.

 

[Jack Parkman]

24 minutes ago, Wanne said:

pretty sure he was referring to the Bears winning a Super Bowl with fairly mediocre gunslinger.  You can take whatever position you want...but you're pretty much in the 1% now with that train of thought.  And look at it this way...look who the Bears #1 pick this past year gets to learn from now.  His work ethic....tendencies...etc.   But you'd rather have those two picks in case you're in a position to draft a HOF QB.  Every QB you draft is a craps role. There's no sure things....and this ain't the 80s.

Hell...if the Bears didn't have Bray on the PS...I'd have snatched up Luke Falk.  I think he's perfect for this O.   You need a serviceable QB...controls the ball...and doesn't lose you games.  I really don't get what you're argument even is anymore?  Is it about you're unhappy with Trubisky?...so I hate the Mack trade?  mkaaaaay.

 

There are no sure things, but you can't win the lottery if you don't play. 

You don't win multiple Super Bowls without a HOF QB, unless you're that once every 30 years fluke. That is the point I was making. 

With regard to Mack, Love the player, hate what they gave up to get him. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[soxfan49]

8 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

There are no sure things, but you can't win the lottery if you don't play. 

You don't win multiple Super Bowls without a HOF QB, unless you're that once every 30 years fluke. That is the point I was making. 

With regard to Mack, Love the player, hate what they gave up to get him. 

They gave up two 1’s and got a 2 and the best player- yes the BEST- in football. I’m not sure why you hate it so much. The Bears roster is set for this year and next. It’s not like they have a lot of spots that are weak.

[GoSox05]

1 hour ago, soxfan49 said:

They gave up two 1’s and got a 2 and the best player- yes the BEST- in football. I’m not sure why you hate it so much. The Bears roster is set for this year and next. It’s not like they have a lot of spots that are weak.

Uh...

[GoSox05]

10 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

So average QBs can win Super Bowls with great defenses.

 

Only 11 teams have won the super bowl without a hall of fame QB out of 52.

In the past 25 years, two of the four non-hall of fame QBs had great playoffs. 

Flacco - 11td - 0 int - 1142 yards

Foles - 6td - 1 int - 971 yards - 72.6 comp%.

The other two had historically great defenses, Bucs and Ravens.

You can win without a hall of fame QB, but it's rare.  You need a lot to go right. That Ravens team needed Joe Flacco to have a historically good playoffs.  He had to be perfect, otherwise they don't win in the playoffs.

[Boogua]

10 minutes ago, GoSox05 said:

Only 11 teams have won the super bowl without a hall of fame QB out of 52.

In the past 25 years, two of the four non-hall of fame QBs had great playoffs. 

Flacco - 11td - 0 int - 1142 yards

Foles - 6td - 1 int - 971 yards - 72.6 comp%.

The other two had historically great defenses, Bucs and Ravens.

You can win without a hall of fame QB, but it's rare.  You need a lot to go right. That Ravens team needed Joe Flacco to have a historically good playoffs.  He had to be perfect, otherwise they don't win in the playoffs.

This, while it may be true, is pretty disingenuous.

 

The Broncos won the Super Bowl in spite of Manning, not because he was playing like a hall of famer. Wilson wasn't the QB he is now when they won the super bowl. Eli might be a hall of famer, but that's only because of his two super bowl wins.

[GoSox05]

2 minutes ago, Boogua said:

This, while it may be true, is pretty disingenuous.

 

The Broncos won the Super Bowl in spite of Manning, not because he was playing like a hall of famer. Wilson wasn't the QB he is now when they won the super bowl. Eli might be a hall of famer, but that's only because of his two super bowl wins.

The P. Manning one sure. 

Wilson was good from year one.  

Eli Manning has had a really good career outside the playoffs and Super Bowls.  He was also great in the playoffs the two years they won.

[Jack Parkman]

30 minutes ago, GoSox05 said:

Only 11 teams have won the super bowl without a hall of fame QB out of 52.

In the past 25 years, two of the four non-hall of fame QBs had great playoffs. 

Flacco - 11td - 0 int - 1142 yards

Foles - 6td - 1 int - 971 yards - 72.6 comp%.

The other two had historically great defenses, Bucs and Ravens.

You can win without a hall of fame QB, but it's rare.  You need a lot to go right. That Ravens team needed Joe Flacco to have a historically good playoffs.  He had to be perfect, otherwise they don't win in the playoffs.

This is the crux of my argument. Thanks. It takes a perfect storm to win a title without a HOF QB. 

[southsider2k5]

52 minutes ago, GoSox05 said:

Only 11 teams have won the super bowl without a hall of fame QB out of 52.

In the past 25 years, two of the four non-hall of fame QBs had great playoffs. 

Flacco - 11td - 0 int - 1142 yards

Foles - 6td - 1 int - 971 yards - 72.6 comp%.

The other two had historically great defenses, Bucs and Ravens.

You can win without a hall of fame QB, but it's rare.  You need a lot to go right. That Ravens team needed Joe Flacco to have a historically good playoffs.  He had to be perfect, otherwise they don't win in the playoffs.

Again this only proves that historic defenses can carry mediocre QBs to a Super Bowl.

[Wanne]

24 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

This is the crux of my argument. Thanks. It takes a perfect storm to win a title without a HOF QB. 

actually the crux of your argument is you're pissed that the Bears gave up two 1st round picks on the astronomical chance they'd have even the remotest of possibilities of landing a HOF QB with one of those picks with a middle of the round or probably better pick.  Btw...Brett Favre 2nd round. Montana was a 3rd round pick.  Dan Fouts 3rd.  Fran Tarkenton 3rd.  Sonny Jurgenson 4th. Tom Brady 6th.   Johnny Unitas 9th.  Roger Staubach 10th.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Wanne

[GoSox05]

7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Again this only proves that historic defenses can carry mediocre QBs to a Super Bowl.

It happens for sure, but it's rare.  Once a decade a team will come across with an unstoppable defense.

I just think it's going to be even less likely now that the NFL wants more and more offense. 

[soxfan49]

1 hour ago, GoSox05 said:

Uh...

Mack is playing better than any other player in football, so he IS (present tense) the best player in the league. The only guy who's currently playing better than Mack is maybe Pat Mahomes, therefore, Mack/Mahomes > any other individual player right now.

When Rodgers is healthy, he's the best.

Edited September 25, 2018 by soxfan49

[GoSox05]

31 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

This is the crux of my argument. Thanks. It takes a perfect storm to win a title without a HOF QB. 

Not just to win one, but to get to one.  Super Bowl losing teams have often had HOF qb's as well. 

Elway, Favre, Kelly, Roethlisberger, Brady, Manning, Staubach, Tarkenton have all lost Super Bowls.  Hell, those guys combined to lose like 18 Super Bowls.

[GoSox05]

2 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

Mack is playing better than any other player in football, so he IS (present tense) the best player in the league. The only guy who's currently playing better than Mack is maybe Pat Mahomes, therefore, Mack/Mahomes > any other individual player right now.

When Rodgers is healthy, he's the best.

I don't judge the best player in the NFL by 3 game blocks.

You could say Ryan Fitzpatrick is the best player in the NFL right now.  Doesn't really mean much.

[Jack Parkman]

15 minutes ago, Wanne said:

actually the crux of your argument is you're pissed that the Bears gave up two 1st round picks on the astronomical chance they'd have even the remotest of possibilities of landing a HOF QB with one of those picks with a middle of the round or probably better pick.  Btw...Brett Favre 2nd round. Montana was a 3rd round pick.  Dan Fouts 3rd.  Fran Tarkenton 3rd.  Sonny Jurgenson 4th. Tom Brady 6th.   Johnny Unitas 9th.  Roger Staubach 10th.

The one thing that Jerry Angelo said that is probably the smartest thing he ever said is the following : "It's all about the Quarterback" In 95% of cases, I don't give a damn how good your defense is, you aren't winning jack shit without a QB. They weren't 100% sure they had one yet, therefore, while you're getting an awesome player, it is still a huge risk. Their defense will probably be good enough to win 6-9 games every year, but unless Mitch gets better in 2019, it is dumb. If they pick top 15 in 2020 they lose immediately. 

[soxfan49]

6 minutes ago, GoSox05 said:

I don't judge the best player in the NFL by 3 game blocks.

You could say Ryan Fitzpatrick is the best player in the NFL right now.  Doesn't really mean much.

Probably not, since in one of the 3 games, he turned the ball over 3 times.

Mack was already a top 5 player in football, and this year he's taking it to an entirely different level of dominance. If the Bears get into the playoffs and if he stays healthy, he could win DPOY unanimously.

Edited September 25, 2018 by soxfan49

[GoSox05]

2 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

Probably not, since in one of the 3 games, he turned the ball over 3 times.

Mack was already a top 5 player in football, and this year he's taking it to an entirely different level of dominance. If the Bears get into the playoffs and if he stays healthy, he could win DPOY unanimously.

Or Von Miller could win it or Myles Garrett. 

It's week 3.

[Wanne]

16 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

The one thing that Jerry Angelo said that is probably the smartest thing he ever said is the following : "It's all about the Quarterback" In 95% of cases, I don't give a damn how good your defense is, you aren't winning jack shit without a QB. They weren't 100% sure they had one yet, therefore, while you're getting an awesome player, it is still a huge risk. Their defense will probably be good enough to win 6-9 games every year, but unless Mitch gets better in 2019, it is dumb. If they pick top 15 in 2020 they lose immediately. 

that's swell and all...then he gives "his QB he gave up two 1st round picks for" some of THE WORST offensive lines I've ever seen....and a few years of laughable WR units.   Jerry forgot there's more than a good QB. But hey...the Bears still got there with Grossman....Rex not Les.  And yet you're still hinging on that powerball odds of getting a HOF QB with one of those picks lol.  It's really comical you're not happy with having Mack right now.  BTW....have you seen the QB class coming out next year?   Which HOFer would you take out of that stellar class?

[Chisoxfn]

1 minute ago, Wanne said:

that's swell and all...then he gives "his QB he gave up two 1st round picks for" some of THE WORST offensive lines I've ever seen....and a few years of laughable WR units.   Jerry forgot there's more than a good QB. But hey...the Bears still got there with Grossman....Rex not Les.  And yet you're still hinging on that powerball odds of getting a HOF QB with one of those picks lol.  It's really comical you're not happy with having Mack right now.  BTW....have you seen the QB class coming out next year?   Which HOFer would you take out of that stellar class?

The Oregon QB is legit.  

[soxfan49]

31 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

The Oregon QB is legit.  

But the Bears aren't going to be the worst team in football, so unless you like Drew Lock, the mediocre Iowa QB, the slighty-above-average Northwestern QB, or the underwhelming NC State guy, it's a moot point since Herbert is likely going #1 or #2; it's going to be a terrible QB draft.

Edited September 25, 2018 by soxfan49

[Jenksismyhero]

14 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Everything. You don't make that trade unless you know you have a keeper at QB. In my mind, you don't  have one unless you're winning because of who is under center.  QB play is very black and white to me. Either you're winning because of who you have at QB, or you're winning in spite of who you have at QB. There is no gray area there. Either you have one, you know it, or you don't and you should be looking. Most GMs are only allowed to pick 1 QB. Either they pick the next HOF guy or they lose their job. It is getting to the point that even a great defense can't overcome shoddy QB play. 

This just happened with the Broncos 2 years ago. 

And perhaps i'm old (36) but i'm getting to the point where I just want my shitty teams (Sox, Bears, Bulls, Illinois sports) to be GOOD. I don't need them to be GREAT, but just GOOD. If the Bears can be a consistent contender for a playoff spot and maybe get to a superbowl every decade, I will take it. At least I have hope that something can go their way and they can win. I'm sick of watching shitty teams not even sniff the post season.

 

[Wanne]

6 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

This just happened with the Broncos 2 years ago. 

And perhaps i'm old (36) but i'm getting to the point where I just want my shitty teams (Sox, Bears, Bulls, Illinois sports) to be GOOD. I don't need them to be GREAT, but just GOOD. If the Bears can be a consistent contender for a playoff spot and maybe get to a superbowl every decade, I will take it. At least I have hope that something can go their way and they can win. I'm sick of watching shitty teams not even sniff the post season.

 

hear ya.  It's nice to FINALLY give a crap about fall Sundays again after the past 6+ years of shit shows.  I'm still holding out a some hope for Illini hoops.

[Wanne]

16 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

But the Bears aren't going to be the worst team in football, so unless you like Drew Lock, the mediocre Iowa QB, the slighty-above-average Northwestern QB, or the underwhelming NC State guy, it's a moot point since Herbert is likely going #1 or #2; it's going to be a terrible QB draft.

It really is an underwhelming class.