FS: Checking the Boxes - a rock and a hard place

[NorthSideSox72]

A couple weeks back, our Julie Brady used her Thursday column to plead for the promotion of Eloy Jimenez, who seemed quite ready for the majors.

Today, our Brian Bilek takes a look at the same question from a different angle, and comes to a different conclusion. Give this a read, as it's a very well-written view of the "other" side of the discussion.

 

[GreenSox]

Another insightful article from Mr. Bilek.  Thanks for writing it and posting it.

Hahn speaks in cliches, fondly called "Hahn-isms"

I found this intriguing:    "I should note, it’s only in Hahn’s interest to stress patience as it just pushes back the time until he is graded on his performance in this overhaul. Realistically though, Hahn wants to have enough time to gather enough young assets to achieve the “critical mass” – perhaps the most key Hahn-ism – to build a sustainable, annual winner."
I think the first sentence is absolutely true. You could have said that about the rebuild itself, although most would agree it was necessary.
 RE critical mass, it seems to me that after the trades of Sale, Q, Eaton and numerous top 11 picks, that the critical mass  right now should be sufficient to create a team that wins for a few years.   But the key to sustained winning  is the  constant re-engergizing of that critical mass through new young talent, which is going to be  more difficult than it was to amass it.

Edited August 1, 2018 by GreenSox

[Buehrlesque]

Nice article by raBBit. While I get the point of obtaining that extra year of service time in 2025, I am still of the opinion both Eloy and Kopech should be in the big leagues today. That they are both major league ready is essentially a given. A lot of the arguments either way have been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum. Yes, you risk losing them a year earlier to FA (though that can be mitigated with early contract extensions that are hardly unprecedented). Yes, you set a bad, adversarial precedent for your other minor leaguers and risk angering these players, etc.

But to me another angle that isn't explored as much is how bringing up Eloy and Kopech today, with a full two months of ball in 2018 left, makes the team better in 2019 and 2020. Everybody talks about prioritizing 2025, but that season is a huge unknown. With a few FAs and some other prospect graduations, this team is going to compete soon in a wide open AL Central. Having Eloy and Kopech get acclimated and begin making adjustment now will make them better contributors to the 2019 and 2020 teams. To me, that is important. 

That is why these guys need to be brought up literally in the next week or so. If you wait any longer, the benefit is minimized and the pendulum does swing back to holding them down for the extra year.

[Balta1701]

15 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Another insightful article from Mr. Bilek.  Thanks for writing it and posting it.

Hahn speaks in cliches, fondly called "Hahn-isms"

I found this intriguing:    "I should note, it’s only in Hahn’s interest to stress patience as it just pushes back the time until he is graded on his performance in this overhaul. Realistically though, Hahn wants to have enough time to gather enough young assets to achieve the “critical mass” – perhaps the most key Hahn-ism – to build a sustainable, annual winner."
I think the first sentence is absolutely true. You could have said that about the rebuild itself, although most would agree it was necessary.
 RE critical mass, it seems to me that after the trades of Sale, Q, Eaton and numerous top 11 picks, that the critical mass  right now should be sufficient to create a team that wins for a few years.   But the key to sustained winning  is the  constant re-engergizing of that critical mass through new young talent, which is going to be  more difficult than it was to amass it.

Except with Moncada and all the other guys called up last season. 

[Dick Allen]

It comes down to would you trade one or two months of these guys when they are just starting out, and have them play for an awful team, for a full year of them when they should be at or near their peaks, on a team that actually might contend. The answer is obvious. Maybe they don't get to their peaks. Anything can happen, but it's an easy choice.  Unfortunately Hahn has to dance around it with ridiculous comments because for some reason saying what you are doing due to the current rules is taboo. Anyone who thinks not should not be ripping any other trades.

[Balta1701]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

It comes down to would you trade one or two months of these guys when they are just starting out, and have them play for an awful team, for a full year of them when they should be at or near their peaks, on a team that actually might contend. The answer is obvious. Maybe they don't get to their peaks. Anything can happen, but it's an easy choice.  Unfortunately Hahn has to dance around it with ridiculous comments because for some reason saying what you are doing due to the current rules is taboo. Anyone who thinks not should not be ripping any other trades.

 

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Except with Moncada and all the other guys called up last season. 

 

[Dick Allen]

11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Except with Moncada and all the other guys called up last season. 

Why does that prohibit them from doing the right thing?  If you are driving somewhere and have a couple of choices with directions and wind up choosing the one that wasn't the best and took you an extra hour or two, is it your law that since that is the path you chose, it can never be changed, and next time you will have to go the same way? 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Jose Abreu]

It was a good article but it ignored the, in my opinion, pretty important factor that is their development, and whether keeping them down when they're both clearly ready can hurt it. They're gonna need time to adjust to the MLB level and I think getting a taste of it now could be very beneficial for them both. 

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said:

It was a good article but it ignored the, in my opinion, pretty important factor that is their development, and whether keeping them down when they're both clearly ready can hurt it. They're gonna need time to adjust to the MLB level and I think getting a taste of it now could be very beneficial for them both. 

I don't see how their development can be destroyed by an extra month or month and a half in AAA. If that is going to do damage, they aren't what we thought they are.

[raBBit]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Why does that prohibit them from doing the right thing?  If you are driving somewhere and have a couple of choices with directions and wind up choosing the one that wasn't the best and took you an extra hour or two, is it your law that since that is the path you chose, it can never be changed? 

 

 

Yeah I agree totally. It's not like every player is the exact same and once you treat one situation a certain way you have to do that without exception moving forward. That would be silly.

2 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

It was a good article but it ignored the, in my opinion, pretty important factor that is their development, and whether keeping them down when they're both clearly ready can hurt it. They're gonna need time to adjust to the MLB level and I think getting a taste of it now could be very beneficial for them both. 

While you have a point with Kopech, I don't think it matters with Jimenez. Dude will hit and will hit from the start. 

[raBBit]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

I don't see how their development can be destroyed by an extra month or month and a half in AAA. If that is going to do damage, they aren't what we thought they are.

Yes and aren't we the fanbase that b****ed about the team rushing the players for a decade? Now letting them get more time in AAA is counterproductive? Something doesn't add up...

[flavum]

Approximately 68 Sox games without Kopech and Jimenez left before they start 15 year careers, hopefully. 

It’s an easy call. You wait. 

[Dick Allen]

People actually want to trade a full year of 28 year old Eloy for 2 months of 21 year old Eloy, on a team destined for at least 95 losses.

[Balta1701]

12 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Why does that prohibit them from doing the right thing?  If you are driving somewhere and have a couple of choices with directions and wind up choosing the one that wasn't the best and took you an extra hour or two, is it your law that since that is the path you chose, it can never be changed, and next time you will have to go the same way? 

 

 

If this is the clear right path, then how much did we cost ourselves by bringing Moncada and others up last year....and how many times do we have to overlook mistakes from the same people?

[Dick Allen]

5 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Yes and aren't we the fanbase that b****ed about the team rushing the players for a decade? Now letting them get more time in AAA is counterproductive? Something doesn't add up...

There's that, and Eloy was out injured for an extended period. How did that hurt his development? 

Keep in mind most September games are basically AAA games anyways for non contenders. 

[Dick Allen]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

If this is the clear right path, then how much did we cost ourselves by bringing Moncada and others up last year....and how many times do we have to overlook mistakes from the same people?

Let it go. Moncada was going to play for a bad White Sox team no matter what.  In fact, he didn't even make his major leagued debut with the White Sox.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

There's that, and Eloy was out injured for an extended period. How did that hurt his development? 

Keep in mind most September games are basically AAA games anyways for non contenders. 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-yoan-moncada-disabled-list-thumb-20170517-story.html#

Quote

The White Sox are expected to place top prospect Yoan Moncada on the seven-day disabled list at Triple-A Charlotte with a sore left thumb.

its' actually remarkable how every single thing you say applies to Moncada the year before. I'm seriously getting impressed. 

[Dick Allen]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-yoan-moncada-disabled-list-thumb-20170517-story.html#

its' actually remarkable how every single thing you say applies to Moncada the year before. I'm seriously getting impressed. 

You have taken my post out of context. Again. I am saying for those who think keeping Eloy in AAA will "hurt his development", when he wasn't playing at all, his development doesn't appear to have been affected. But try again. 

 

What's remarkable is how your answer is always Moncada because you can't come up with any real logic to burn the service time now. 2 months of 21 year old Eloy isn't worth an entire year of 28 year old Eloy. You know that, but have boxed yourself into a corner, and can't admit it. It's pretty hysterical.

[raBBit]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-yoan-moncada-disabled-list-thumb-20170517-story.html#

its' actually remarkable how every single thing you say applies to Moncada the year before. I'm seriously getting impressed. 

I know you can't fathom a situation where you're not correct, but whatever they did with Moncada last year doesn't matter. If we were talking about Moncada, then it would matter. Moncada had MLB experience when acquired. They are different players and different situations. 

[flavum]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

There's that, and Eloy was out injured for an extended period. How did that hurt his development? 

Keep in mind most September games are basically AAA games anyways for non contenders. 

Also add the first two weeks of next season that starts in late March again. Playing in 45 degree weather isn’t exactly ideal for getting quality innings/at bats. 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, raBBit said:

I know you can't fathom a situation where you're not correct, but whatever they did with Moncada last year doesn't matter. If we were talking about Moncada, then it would matter. Moncada had MLB experience when acquired. They are different players and different situations. 

Thanks for the cheap personal attack.

[TaylorStSox]

A week later and "checking the boxes" is as worn out as your Dad's white Nikes. 

[Sleepy Harold]

Great article Brian, and I like to quote a saying that Barry Rozner loves to say regarding the situation, that 7 is more than 6.  While it may be tough to take, if they do indeed hold them down until next April, it's the "right play" that the rules do allow, however flawed they may actually be.  I wouldn't be disappointed if they get called up this year, but I 100% understand what they'd be doing if they didn't.  

[kevo880]

I really hope some of the twitter folk read this article. Between Patrick Nolan and Southside Larry I can't even read their posts anymore. Everyday it's the same thing claiming how much damage is being done to Kopech and Jimenez for not being called up yet. People need to look at the big picture of what's best for the organization.

Edited August 1, 2018 by kevo880

[raBBit]

44 minutes ago, kevo880 said:

I really hope some of the twitter folk read this article. Between Patrick Nolan and Southside Larry I can't even read their posts anymore. Everyday it's the same thing claiming how much damage is being done to Kopech and Jimenez for not being called up yet. People need to look at the big picture of what's best for the organization.

I can't task myself with exchanging with Larry but I responded to Nolan.