Cracks in trust the process

[Dick Allen]

Just look at it another way.  They were close to signing Alex Gordon. I admit I liked him, but he has been awful and I am not paid 7 figures to figure this stuff out. This past offseaon they were linked to Logan Morrison. How has he PLAYED? How can anyone trust these are the guys who know which free agents to pay? They hit the jackpot in 2005 with Iguchi, Dye and AJ That was long ago. IMO, the Sox will be bucking the odds if this braintrust leads them to where we want them.

[Bananarchy]

24 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Based on the entirety of his tenure I would rank Rick Hahn's performance as GM as the worst in baseball and I don't think it's even close. We will never again see a GM do what he did - insist for 3 years that he has a competitive roster, spend lots of money, sacrifice future seasons, and fail so spectacularly again and again and again, because 28 or 29 other franchises would have fired him at least 3 times, and the majority would have fired him 4 or more. The only reason I'm not putting him below Hawk Harrelson as the worst in franchise history is getting those 3 extensions done. He has one last shot to turn around his reputation and that's for the talent he acquired using those players he extended to break out and carry this team to multiple pennant races and a trophy. If we're looking at a bunch of busts in 2020 and 2021 then I will call rick Hahn the worst GM baseball will ever see.

You like, don't read about other teams, do you?  You are completely unaware of the rest off the league?  

Worst GM in baseball? Please.

[Replacement Level Poster]

I trust the process rebuilding as current is an effective program to build a competitive window of say 5 years, but not the KW/RH brain trust running it. Recent evidence has indicated they can’t assemble a winning team. I don’t hand wring about them though because as long as JR has the team they’ll be in their positions.

While all prospect development is not linear, accumulating trading cost controlled elite talent one looking like a Hall Of Famer(sale) and developing the acquired talent into productive MLB players is an entirely different organizational skill.  A great deal of the trust in the process is some semblance of steady development by Moncada, Giolito, Reylo, TA. I would probably say it’s been mixed so far this year. Better yet calling up a guy next April Eloy who is immediately a star rookie of the year candidate would also go toward building some of the trust and credibility toward the rebuild. I know it’s apples and oranges but I recall as soon as the Sox called up Frank Thomas he was the best player in the lineup and an immediate all star.  I’m hoping Eloy has a similar impact. Just imagine the rebuild angst if he struggles badly next year.

 

[ptatc]

31 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Based on the entirety of his tenure I would rank Rick Hahn's performance as GM as the worst in baseball and I don't think it's even close. We will never again see a GM do what he did - insist for 3 years that he has a competitive roster, spend lots of money, sacrifice future seasons, and fail so spectacularly again and again and again, because 28 or 29 other franchises would have fired him at least 3 times, and the majority would have fired him 4 or more. The only reason I'm not putting him below Hawk Harrelson as the worst in franchise history is getting those 3 extensions done. He has one last shot to turn around his reputation and that's for the talent he acquired using those players he extended to break out and carry this team to multiple pennant races and a trophy. If we're looking at a bunch of busts in 2020 and 2021 then I will call rick Hahn the worst GM baseball will ever see.

Agreed. The only caveat would be if JR had always insisted that he continued to go for it. He didn't have much to work with. I Could see JR giving him this chance to rebuild the team if JR never let him try before. By all "expert" accounts he has done well with his acquisition of talent. Soon the results will be the determining factor.

[footlongcomiskeydog]

34 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Based on the entirety of his tenure I would rank Rick Hahn's performance as GM as the worst in baseball and I don't think it's even close. We will never again see a GM do what he did - insist for 3 years that he has a competitive roster, spend lots of money, sacrifice future seasons, and fail so spectacularly again and again and again, because 28 or 29 other franchises would have fired him at least 3 times, and the majority would have fired him 4 or more. The only reason I'm not putting him below Hawk Harrelson as the worst in franchise history is getting those 3 extensions done. He has one last shot to turn around his reputation and that's for the talent he acquired using those players he extended to break out and carry this team to multiple pennant races and a trophy. If we're looking at a bunch of busts in 2020 and 2021 then I will call rick Hahn the worst GM baseball will ever see.

This post pulls no punches and comes out swinging!

Rick Hahn has been in over his head as a GM since day one. The only thing he can really hang his hat on at this point is a few contract extensions with players who no longer play in Chicago. If this Sox team isn't fighting for a playoff spot two years from now then he needs to go. 

Also, the Yoan Moncada Cheerleading Squad may call me a troll, but I would argue that Jerry Reinsdorf is pulling the ultimate troll job on all of us. Both his professional sports franchises are absolutely floundering while his wallet is doing the exact opposite. 

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

This post pulls no punches and comes out swinging!

Rick Hahn has been in over his head as a GM since day one. The only thing he can really hang his hat on at this point is a few contract extensions with players who no longer play in Chicago. If this Sox team isn't fighting for a playoff spot two years from now then he needs to go. 

Also, the Yoan Moncada Cheerleading Squad may call me a troll, but I would argue that Jerry Reinsdorf is pulling the ultimate troll job on all of us. Both his professional sports franchises are absolutely floundering while his wallet is doing the exact opposite. 

I disagree that he can only hang his hat on the contract extensions. The Quintana trade and the Eaton trads were longstanding.  Getting highly ranked pitching and hitting prospects in and individual deal is a good trade. Getting 3 pitching prospects for a single positionplayer who couldn't stay healthy was great as well.

[WBWSF]

51 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Based on the entirety of his tenure I would rank Rick Hahn's performance as GM as the worst in baseball and I don't think it's even close. We will never again see a GM do what he did - insist for 3 years that he has a competitive roster, spend lots of money, sacrifice future seasons, and fail so spectacularly again and again and again, because 28 or 29 other franchises would have fired him at least 3 times, and the majority would have fired him 4 or more. The only reason I'm not putting him below Hawk Harrelson as the worst in franchise history is getting those 3 extensions done. He has one last shot to turn around his reputation and that's for the talent he acquired using those players he extended to break out and carry this team to multiple pennant races and a trophy. If we're looking at a bunch of busts in 2020 and 2021 then I will call rick Hahn the worst GM baseball will ever see.

Hahn has been the GM for 6 years and the team hasn't had one winning season. This lovefest for Hahn by White Sox fans baffles me.  He has made so many bad moves but yet he still has his job. He would have been fired years ago if he was working for most other MLB teams.

[wrathofhahn]

34 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Just look at it another way.  They were close to signing Alex Gordon. I admit I liked him, but he has been awful and I am not paid 7 figures to figure this stuff out. This past offseaon they were linked to Logan Morrison. How has he PLAYED? How can anyone trust these are the guys who know which free agents to pay? They hit the jackpot in 2005 with Iguchi, Dye and AJ That was long ago. IMO, the Sox will be bucking the odds if this braintrust leads them to where we want them.

I don't want them to sign longterm guys but there is no reason for us to play AAAA guys when we have the roster spots and cash to sign veterans looking for pillow deals or trade for distressed assets.

I really wanted us to sign a DH last offseason and some pitching. We could have helped the rebuild tremendously if we brought in some more young talent particularly at the lower leagues.

Instead we really only moved Soria. While we got an OK return it just seems like a huge missed opportunity in a lost season to only move one guy and bring in one quality prospect.

 

[Dam8610]

3 hours ago, Juschill said:

I would tend to agree with your points.  The major difference being the Astros replaced their front office before the start of the 2012 season.  So did the Cubs.  I'm not sure that the people who drove the car into the ditch can be counted on to tow it out of the ditch.

 

I understand the trepidation there, but if there's one thing Hahn showed himself to be good at before the rebuild, it was evaluating young talent. Also, the entire scouting department got replaced when the rebuild started, so other than the guys at the very top, the front office essentially was replaced. IMO they've gotten pretty good results thus far.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Hahn deserves plenty of blame for many of the moves he made, but this is overly harsh and quite frankly a bit ridiculous.  Rick Hahn does NOT get to decide the direction of the club on his own.  That’s heavily influenced by a man named Jerry Reinsdorf and we all know very well his desire to win but not go above & beyond in terms of resources & risk taking has hurt this franchise tremendously.  It’s very clear, at least in my opinion, that we’re finally seeing a direction that Hahn is pushing for.  And quite frankly, it’s the path we needed to go down given the state the franchise was in.  Having said that, it remains to be seen if Hahn can actually execute the moves to complete a rebuild.  The first set of trades were fantastic IMO, but now comes the hard part.

If Rick Hahn was told by Jerry Reinsdorf to do something that was literally impossible - take a 73 win team with a bottom of the league organization and turn it into a playoff team on the free agent market - and he did not say "This is impossible I cannot do it", then it does not matter what Jerry Reinsdorf's suggestions were he failed completely at his job. If he said that and was overruled he should have considered resigning as he was being ordered to do the impossible and it was his career on the line. If that pattern continued he should have drawn a red line and said he was going to resign if he was not given actual authority to make decisions since that is literally his job. For example, if Rick Hahn said " I need to replace Robin Ventura" after the 2013 debacle and was denied permission to change the manager he should have resigned, and instead he gave him a contract extension. If Jerry Reinsdorf is making the general manager's decisions then the general manager should resign because he is not needed.

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, AustinIllini said:

You like, don't read about other teams, do you?  You are completely unaware of the rest off the league?  

Worst GM in baseball? Please.

Since Rick Hahn took over the Chicago White Sox, they have the fewest regular season wins of any franchise in MLB. Even I'm surprised by this one, I just checked. Frankly I thought the Padres and Reds would be worse, but nope, Rick's White Sox have lost 13 more games in that stretch than any team in major league baseball.

[Dick Allen]

Considering the assets they had to deal for prospects, and the state of their division, this should be a lot easier rebuild than most. 

 

I would just just like to see a little more consistency with their high end guys in the majors. Gio was great last night. Don’t look like 2016 James Shields last time out. I am not a Moncada hater in the least, but it’s time he put up a stretch of games that show why he was so highly rated. Same with Lopez. I get young guys are going to be wildly inconsistent for the most part. But these are supposed to be elite guys. Instead of calling up Eloy for “hope”; it would be nice if we could get more than a game here a game there to hang our hopes on the others. 

[footlongcomiskeydog]

53 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Since Rick Hahn took over the Chicago White Sox, they have the fewest regular season wins of any franchise in MLB. Even I'm surprised by this one, I just checked. Frankly I thought the Padres and Reds would be worse, but nope, Rick's White Sox have lost 13 more games in that stretch than any team in major league baseball.

Dude, don't you know that wins and losses is an archaic baseball stat just like batting average. It is not fair to judge Hahn on wins and losses anymore.

What was the Sox run differential, pythagorean win-loss percentage, and inverted baseline theory ratio during the last 6 years compared to other bottom feeders like Cincy, San Diego, and Miami?

[caulfield12]

Luckily, Hahn has the Mariners struggling down the stretch or it would only be the Padres with a longer streak missing the playoffs.

Seattle has gone Gillick, Bavaria, Jack Z and now Dipoto.

Padres have gone Towers, Hoyer, Byrnes, Preller in that time span, so we’re already two behind.

From 2013 until today, there’s really only been one decent stretch that got your hopes up, the first 6 weeks of the 2016, before the dreaded James Shields Hail Mary call.  That’s six years now of nothing but Abreu’s rookie year and Avi in 2017, unless you count LaRoche and Son Gate, Sale Jersey Massacre Gate and Dunn Historical Ineptitude 2011 Gate.

Two totally busted free agent groups in 2011 and 2014 (LaRoche, Cabrera, Robertson, Bonifacio, Beckham, Geo Soto).

Oh, forgot to include the JB Shuck Era in there, too.

Pythagorean of -3 total from 2013 through today.  91 Games under .500 in 5 2/3rd’s seasons.  That will average out to about 16-18 games under per season for more than half a decade.   That’s the definition of Baseball Purgatory for fans.

Edited August 4, 2018 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Based on the entirety of his tenure I would rank Rick Hahn's performance as GM as the worst in baseball and I don't think it's even close. We will never again see a GM do what he did - insist for 3 years that he has a competitive roster, spend lots of money, sacrifice future seasons, and fail so spectacularly again and again and again, because 28 or 29 other franchises would have fired him at least 3 times, and the majority would have fired him 4 or more. The only reason I'm not putting him below Hawk Harrelson as the worst in franchise history is getting those 3 extensions done. He has one last shot to turn around his reputation and that's for the talent he acquired using those players he extended to break out and carry this team to multiple pennant races and a trophy. If we're looking at a bunch of busts in 2020 and 2021 then I will call rick Hahn the worst GM baseball will ever see.

Wait, what?

Tigers? Diamondbacks? Padres? Mariners? Freaking Orioles? Marlins?

What on Earth are you talking about?

[chitownsportsfan]

You're ascribing an awful lot of things to Hahn that were almost certainly out of his control @Balta1701.  It's not even clear that Hahn was the loudest voice in the FO until sometime around 2015.  It's impossible to untangle the end of KW's tenure with the beginning of Hahn's.

All that said, anybody that raid my post yesterday wrt to Eloy knows where I stand on "trust the process" right now.  I'm trusting, but I also need to verify.  Right now that verification is seeing a guy with an 215wRC+ (lulwut?) in AAA come up and later for worries about 7 years from now in a new CBA.

Edited August 4, 2018 by chitownsportsfan

[caulfield12]

11 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Wait, what?

Tigers? Diamondbacks? Padres? Mariners? Freaking Orioles? Marlins?

What on Earth are you talking about?

The Tigers had a LONG run of success under DD, just no World Series title.  Avila?  A wash?  Marlins produced Yelich, Realmuto, Stanton, Jose Fernandez, Ozuna...they blow lots of teams away in terms of development.  DBacks weathered the LaRussa/Stewart fiasco quite well.

Almost nobody in baseball would choose Hahn over Preller in terms of talent evaluation.

So that gives you the Orioles...but 80% of that gets dumped into the lap of Angelos and Showalter...and they made the playoffs in a much tougher decision at least twice if I recall correctly.

Maybe the Twins?  Well, they earned a WC and had the top ranked system 2-3 years ago.

 

Would enjoy seeing Beane with at least $150 million to spend in Chicago...but doubt he ever leaves Cali.

Edited August 4, 2018 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

You're ascribing an awful lot of things to Hahn that were almost certainly out of his control @Balta1701.  It's not even clear that Hahn was the loudest voice in the FO until sometime around 2015.  It's impossible to untangle the end of KW's tenure with the beginning of Hahn's.

I think at least since 2012, you have to hold them equally responsible. To say he is just KWs lackey, isn’t exactly a glowing endorsement of the man. He had opportunities to go elsewhere, but he stayed. I think he did interview with St. Louis but pulled out. He had other opportunities but declined. That doesn’t sound like a guy with all of his degrees and education, and training being a  glorified coffee boy. Rick Hahn’s name is on what has been going on with this team for a long time.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Eminor3rd said:

Wait, what?

Tigers? Diamondbacks? Padres? Mariners? Freaking Orioles? Marlins?

What on Earth are you talking about?

What you might notice from your list is that out of them, The Tigers, Diamondbacks, Padres, Mariners, and Marlins have all fired or replaced their general managers during the stretch where Rick Hahn has somehow avoided being fired. In some cases they have done so more than once. Furthermore, the Orioles and Tigers have Division titles during that stretch, and the D-backs have a wild card birth. The Mariners, Padres, and Marlins have all won substantially more games than the White Sox during that stretch as well. We will see if the M's can break their playoffless streak this year, but they're likely to be above .500, something we have yet to see Rick Hahn ever do.

The best story, since you bring it up, is the Arizona Diamondbacks. At the end of the 2014 season, Dave Stewart was brought in to be their general manager. Prior to the 2016 season, they spent big, signing Zack Greinke. They traded away prospects to bring in underperforming pitching. They said "we are ready to win now". They dramatically underperformed and finished in 4th place. What did they do in response, declare that everything was fine and they were trying again?

They fired their manager and GM. The new guys...made the wild card. That's what happens when better organizations make mistakes. That's how I can confidently say we will never see a run of failure like Rick Hahn's run of failure again, because no other franchise would have let it go on that long, and once the current ownership group changes, the White Sox won't let runs of failure like this go on this long either.

[chitownsportsfan]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I think at least since 2012, you have to hold them equally responsible. To say he is just KWs lackey, isn’t exactly a glowing endorsement of the man. He had opportunities to go elsewhere, but he stayed. I think he did interview with St. Louis but pulled out. He had other opportunities but declined. That doesn’t sound like a guy with all of his degrees and education, and training being a  glorified coffee boy. Rick Hahn’s name is on what has been going on with this team for a long time.

Fair enough.  If Hahn fucks this up and the team sucks in 2021 shit can him.  I got no great love for the guy.  But he deserves, based on what he's done the last two years, to see it out imo.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Fair enough.  If Hahn fucks this up and the team sucks in 2021 shit can him.  I got no great love for the guy.  But he deserves, based on what he's done the last two years, to see it out imo.

Even I cannot fire him right now, the 4th time to fire him was the end of the 2016 season and we passed on that, so right now we can't evaluate the current set of moves. I'd agree on this schedule, that if this team is still in the crapper in 3 seasons then Rick Hahn not only should be fired, but he'll go down as the worst GM in White Sox history. He'd have been GM for 9 seasons and had a losing record in every one, in that case. He'd have the worst record in baseball for a decade, he's already had it for 6 years.

But I still want him tarred and feathered for that 2016 season.

[Chicago White Sox]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Even I cannot fire him right now, the 4th time to fire him was the end of the 2016 season and we passed on that, so right now we can't evaluate the current set of moves. I'd agree on this schedule, that if this team is still in the crapper in 3 seasons then Rick Hahn not only should be fired, but he'll go down as the worst GM in White Sox history. He'd have been GM for 9 seasons and had a losing record in every one, in that case. He'd have the worst record in baseball for a decade, he's already had it for 6 years.

But I still want him tarred and feathered for that 2016 season.

What were the other three times to fire him out of curiosity? 

[Dick Allen]

16 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Fair enough.  If Hahn fucks this up and the team sucks in 2021 shit can him.  I got no great love for the guy.  But he deserves, based on what he's done the last two years, to see it out imo.

The time to can him was before the rebuild started. So I am pretty sure, unless something happens to JR, these guys are going to see it through. I just hope that seeing it through doesn’t mean put up with several years more of this. I would think by the end of next season, a determination as to how this is going can be reasonably done. If Yoan Moncada is still an averag player, if Gio and Lopez are still questionable starters for a good team, if Eloy struggles, if Kopech looks lost, if Luis Robert continues to not play, heads should roll. Larry Himes got canned after winning 94 games with the lowest payroll in baseball. Bad performance should trump bad personality.  I do think 2019 is put up or shut up time to both KW and RH. I don’t expect playoffs, but I do expect some of the guys we have been marketed to count on start playing like guys who are going to make the White Sox win. And that evaluation should go on every year until the team is where they claim they are headed.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

What were the other three times to fire him out of curiosity? 

I think more than half the teams in the big leagues would have fired him after the 2013 debacle of saying they were competitive and then losing 99 games (see: the Diamondbacks firing Dave Stewart if you're thinking this is harsh for a guy who just got hired). At the end of the 2015 season, 27 or 28 franchises, maybe more would have fired him after failing to be competitive twice in seasons he said they would compete (I don't know which one of them wouldn't have but someone probably would foul this up). He deserved to be fired again after flailing before the 2016 trade deadline and doing dramatic damage to the future of the franchise in the process - I'm up to 29 teams in MLB who would have fired him by then. All 29 other teams would have then fired him again at the end of the 2016 season.

So, almost every team in baseball would have fired Rick Hahn at least 3 times and the majority would have fired him 4 times.

To this day I think the most fair evaluation of Rick Hahn came out of the mouth of Rick Hahn. In 2015, when he chose to do nothing at the trade deadline and the White Sox had actually gone on a winning streak, he personally set the standard. He said "If we keep playing like this we'll be right there at the end". I think that was a totally fair way to evaluate Rick Hahn - if he was right and they were right there at the end then fine he gets another shot. He made moves consistent with that statement, holding onto players he should have moved and sold. They were no where close at the end. That was the standard he set, his job should have been based on it.

[iamshack]

13 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

What you might notice from your list is that out of them, The Tigers, Diamondbacks, Padres, Mariners, and Marlins have all fired or replaced their general managers during the stretch where Rick Hahn has somehow avoided being fired. In some cases they have done so more than once. Furthermore, the Orioles and Tigers have Division titles during that stretch, and the D-backs have a wild card birth. The Mariners, Padres, and Marlins have all won substantially more games than the White Sox during that stretch as well. We will see if the M's can break their playoffless streak this year, but they're likely to be above .500, something we have yet to see Rick Hahn ever do.

The best story, since you bring it up, is the Arizona Diamondbacks. At the end of the 2014 season, Dave Stewart was brought in to be their general manager. Prior to the 2016 season, they spent big, signing Zack Greinke. They traded away prospects to bring in underperforming pitching. They said "we are ready to win now". They dramatically underperformed and finished in 4th place. What did they do in response, declare that everything was fine and they were trying again?

They fired their manager and GM. The new guys...made the wild card. That's what happens when better organizations make mistakes. That's how I can confidently say we will never see a run of failure like Rick Hahn's run of failure again, because no other franchise would have let it go on that long, and once the current ownership group changes, the White Sox won't let runs of failure like this go on this long either.

This entire line of posts are so incredibly ridiculous, I can only guess that you simply felt like arguing with people this weekend. This is utterly preposterous.