Cracks in trust the process

[Balta1701]

Just now, iamshack said:

I’m sorry, but making good trades “on paper” is the primary function of the FO. RH is not General Fortune Teller, or General Crystal Baller, or even Head of Player Development. 

He went out and got the players his scouts told him he should be getting, and now he has turned them over the the folks who are in charge of developing those players. 

I concede that ultimately, the responsibility is his to ensure all facets of the organization are working to create players that ultimately produce for the ml team, but you’re admitting his primary function was done well.

As for these points about these guys not contributing yet...I fail to understand how you can hold it against th FO that these assets are still on their expected development track. The FO is being responsible in allowing them to get the repetitions necessary to succeed in the major leagues. This is precisely what they should be doing. 

Your conclusion of being on thin ice is your own, and one I don’t come anywhere close to agreeing with. Whether you think they should have been fired after 2016 or not, that does not somehow place them under some other framework from which to be evaluated once they were not fired. This organization went down a certain path when Chris Sale was traded, and it remains on a trajectory which is perfectly acceptable for that path. How that should result in thin ice or a sinister ticking clock is beyond my understanding. If this was not 2018, but instead, 2022, I could fully understand, but it simply isn’t. 

You'd give them until 2022, a full 6 seasons of a rebuild, before you evaluate its quality? We ought to be seeing dramatic progress well before then. That's what thin ice and a ticking clock should mean. If we're talking about anything other than Rick Hahn's remarkable rebuilding success and the multiple years of pennant races by the time 2022 rolls around, then that means my fears were well founded.

[iamshack]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

You'd give them until 2022, a full 6 seasons of a rebuild, before you evaluate its quality? We ought to be seeing dramatic progress well before then. That's what thin ice and a ticking clock should mean. If we're talking about anything other than Rick Hahn's remarkable rebuilding success and the multiple years of pennant races by the time 2022 rolls around, then that means my fears were well founded.

No, but for someone to be responding the way you are, one would think it was 2022. You’re incredulous that he still has a job. I could understand that in 2022 if we were still in this position. 

Whether you like this FO or not, you still must be objective in your evaluation of this process. You cannot allow frustration to place impossible expectations on them and still remain objective. 

We will continue to see some of the fruits of their labor, but we all know this is not close to a finished product, so we absolutely cannot evaluate them as if it should be.

[Eminor3rd]

Dude it's year two of a rebuild.

I know it sucks to watch, but the ice ain't thin. It'll get thin very quickly in 2020 if these guys all still suck.

[Balta1701]

Just now, iamshack said:

No, but for someone to be responding the way you are, one would think it was 2022. You’re incredulous that he still has a job. I could understand that in 2022 if we were still in this position. 

Whether you like this FO or not, you still must be objective in your evaluation of this process. You cannot allow frustration to place impossible expectations on them and still remain objective. 

We will continue to see some of the fruits of their labor, but we all know this is not close to a finished product, so we absolutely cannot evaluate them as if it should be.

I'm absolutely incredulous that anyone could have the 4 year run Rick Hahn had as GM from 2013-2016 and still have a job and I will absolutely stand by the statement that those are the worst 4 years we will ever see from any GM ever, as you've seen above. What he has done since then has been impressive but it does not absolve him of the previous run until there is a complete and successful turnaround. When people ask how I rank his performance, which is what started this conversation, I'm going to reply that we will never see a GM have that bad of a 4 year run again because every other GM in the league would have been fired multiple times and burned in effigy by the end, and until proven otherwise that should color our opinion of his tenure. And that...is how we got here :).

[iamshack]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I'm absolutely incredulous that anyone could have the 4 year run Rick Hahn had as GM from 2013-2016 and still have a job and I will absolutely stand by the statement that those are the worst 4 years we will ever see from any GM ever, as you've seen above. What he has done since then has been impressive but it does not absolve him of the previous run until there is a complete and successful turnaround. When people ask how I rank his performance, which is what started this conversation, I'm going to reply that we will never see a GM have that bad of a 4 year run again because every other GM in the league would have been fired multiple times and burned in effigy by the end, and until proven otherwise that should color our opinion of his tenure. And that...is how we got here :).

Well he signed Chris Sale in March of 2013, Jose Quintana in March of 2014, Traded for Adam Eaton in December of 2013. 

I’d say these moves alone keep him from some of the ridiculous statements you make above. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, iamshack said:

Well he signed Chris Sale in March of 2013, Jose Quintana in March of 2014, Traded for Adam Eaton in December of 2013. 

I’d say these moves alone keep him from some of the ridiculous statements you make above. 

Who was the one who moved Eaton to RF and Sale out of the bullpen?

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Who was the one who moved Eaton to RF and Sale out of the bullpen?

Who cares who moved eaton to RF he was fine there, the real trick that we somehow pulled of was keeping Eaton healthy for 3 seasons.

[Eminor3rd]

5 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

What you might notice from your list is that out of them, The Tigers, Diamondbacks, Padres, Mariners, and Marlins have all fired or replaced their general managers during the stretch where Rick Hahn has somehow avoided being fired. In some cases they have done so more than once. Furthermore, the Orioles and Tigers have Division titles during that stretch, and the D-backs have a wild card birth. The Mariners, Padres, and Marlins have all won substantially more games than the White Sox during that stretch as well. We will see if the M's can break their playoffless streak this year, but they're likely to be above .500, something we have yet to see Rick Hahn ever do.

The best story, since you bring it up, is the Arizona Diamondbacks. At the end of the 2014 season, Dave Stewart was brought in to be their general manager. Prior to the 2016 season, they spent big, signing Zack Greinke. They traded away prospects to bring in underperforming pitching. They said "we are ready to win now". They dramatically underperformed and finished in 4th place. What did they do in response, declare that everything was fine and they were trying again?

They fired their manager and GM. The new guys...made the wild card. That's what happens when better organizations make mistakes. That's how I can confidently say we will never see a run of failure like Rick Hahn's run of failure again, because no other franchise would have let it go on that long, and once the current ownership group changes, the White Sox won't let runs of failure like this go on this long either.

Well, Hahn will certainly be fired if this run doesn't work. Dombrowski got his full run with the Tigers, from foundation to maturation. The DBacks guys got canned because their moves were insane -- no one thinks Hahn's direction is off like there's was.

It's actually pretty similar to Preller with the Padres, if you think about it. He comes in, states they're being aggressive, spends a bunch of money when no one on Earth thought it could possibly be enough. Lo and behold -- it wasn't, the team was a joke, and now Preller gets the chance to tear it down and do it his way. 

Once you give the guy the task and the vote of confidence, you gotta let him see it through. You could argue that Preller/Hahn both should have been let go before the rebuild started, but once you start you gotta let them see it through -- assuming they aren't Stewart-ing it.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Eminor3rd

[Drwhoo1]

2 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

Dude it's year two of a rebuild.

I know it sucks to watch, but the ice ain't thin. It'll get thin very quickly in 2020 if these guys all still suck.

Thanks for saying it as I wasn’t going to be so eloquent. They were not major league players we traded for. Only 3 have come up since the trades. But whatever, some of these people just don’t get it and never will. If significant progress is not shown by 2020, then clean house. Till then there is nothing to get excited about. I just hope we lose enough this year to get a top 3 pick. Higher if possible as this year means absolutely nothing. Other than that, I do get very excited looking at the minor league box score every night

[Panerista]

8 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Since Rick Hahn took over the Chicago White Sox, they have the fewest regular season wins of any franchise in MLB. Even I'm surprised by this one, I just checked. Frankly I thought the Padres and Reds would be worse, but nope, Rick's White Sox have lost 13 more games in that stretch than any team in major league baseball.

How many regular season wins did the Cubs have after Theo took over?

 

Think, dude.  Use your head.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

44 minutes ago, AustinIllini said:

How many regular season wins did the Cubs have after Theo took over?

 

Think, dude.  Use your head.

Can't be the only one that thinks he's just baiting, right?

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Drwhoo1 said:

Thanks for saying it as I wasn’t going to be so eloquent. They were not major league players we traded for. Only 3 have come up since the trades. But whatever, some of these people just don’t get it and never will. If significant progress is not shown by 2020, then clean house. Till then there is nothing to get excited about. I just hope we lose enough this year to get a top 3 pick. Higher if possible as this year means absolutely nothing. Other than that, I do get very excited looking at the minor league box score every night

Only 1.5 up on the Padres now...

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, AustinIllini said:

How many regular season wins did the Cubs have after Theo took over?

 

Think, dude.  Use your head.

Were the White Sox rebuilding in 2013, 2015, and 2016?

[Dominikk85]

The rebuild isn't going that well currently but I don't think Hahn can be blamed for everyone getting hurt. Maybe a small blame can be put on the minor league fitness coaching and medical staff but then again health was one of the few things that worked well for the sox in the 12-16 time frame. Maybe it was just bad luck.

 

Health is a big issue for everyone in mlb and if the sox want to win this needs to get better.

[wrathofhahn]

On 8/3/2018 at 9:03 AM, Dam8610 said:

Jose Altuve - international free agent signing in 2007

Dallas Keuchel - drafted 7th round in 2009

Marwin Gonzalez - acquired via trade in December 2011

George Springer - drafted 11th overall in 2011

Carlos Correa - drafted 1st overall in 2012

Lance McCullers Jr. - drafted 41st overall in 2012

Max Stassi - acquired via trade in February 2013

Tony Kemp - drafted 5th round in 2013

J.D. Davis - drafted 75th overall in 2014

Evan Gattis - acquired via trade in January 2015

Alex Bregman - drafted 2nd overall in 2015

Kyle Tucker - drafted 5th overall in 2015

Yulieski Gurriel - international free agent signing in 2016

Justin Verlander - acquired via trade in July 2017

Gerrit Cole - acquired via trade in January 2018

I didn't really look at the bullpen, but that's most of the Astros starting position players and rotation. All were acquired either through or as a result of internal development. In the cases of guys like Verlander and Cole, they had to have the prospects to trade to get them. This is also with at least 2 notable massive screwups along the way (letting J.D. Martinez go for nothing, drafting Mark Appel over Kris Bryant). They just won the World Series and are among the favorites to win this year. Trust. The. Process. We're in year 2. They're in year 7.

Ok but the Astros are probably top three when it comes to finding, drafting and developing young talent. Hahn is about average when it comes to getting something out of his own picks.

What jump started the rebuild wasn't the the draft it was trades and what allowed that to happen was the fact KH signed two guys to way below market extensions. It's also well much easier to identify talent that has already been in the minors for 3-4 years.

I just think we had an opportunity this season to walk away with much more then Medeiros and didn't. We should have brought in more rentals like Soria who could be moved at the deadline. I hope we are active after the deadline Abreu resurgence along with some other teams desperation (ehm Yankees) might make for a deal. 

[caulfield12]

41 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

Ok but the Astros are probably top three when it comes to finding, drafting and developing young talent. Hahn is about average when it comes to getting something out of his own picks.

What jump started the rebuild wasn't the the draft it was trades and what allowed that to happen was the fact KH signed two guys to way below market extensions. It's also well much easier to identify talent that has already been in the minors for 3-4 years.

I just think we had an opportunity this season to walk away with much more then Medeiros and didn't. We should have brought in more rentals like Soria who could be moved at the deadline. I hope we are active after the deadline Abreu resurgence along with some other teams desperation (ehm Yankees) might make for a deal. 

How many Astros came from sign and dump guys?  They probably had more going out...due to roster backlogs.  Too many good poisition players at each level to hold onto all of them.  Just imagine if they had Bryant AND JD Martinez added to that monster team.  Grossman, Domingo Santana, Preston Tucker, Singleton, all would have had homes with this year’s White Sox team. 

Same with the Cubs in 2011-13...who else did they trade that still held ANY value, besides Starling Castro?

[Panerista]

1 hour ago, [email protected] said:

The rebuild isn't going that well currently but I don't think Hahn can be blamed for everyone getting hurt. Maybe a small blame can be put on the minor league fitness coaching and medical staff but then again health was one of the few things that worked well for the sox in the 12-16 time frame. Maybe it was just bad luck.

 

Health is a big issue for everyone in mlb and if the sox want to win this needs to get better.

Third best farm system in the sport but "the rebuild isn't going well"

Are people seriously reading these posts and saying I'm baiting? 

[caulfield12]

12 minutes ago, AustinIllini said:

Third best farm system in the sport but "the rebuild isn't going well"

Are people seriously reading these posts and saying I'm baiting? 

Tell that to Terry Ryan, who built the #1 farm system from 2014-16 and formed the teams that reached the playoffs from 2002-2004, 2006, 2009 and 2010.

 

Ryan stepped down in 2007 but returned in 2011 after hand-picked successor Bill Smith could not continue the team's success.

The Twins are in the middle of their fifth losing season in the last six years. A 2015 season that saw them return to contention in the division proved not to be enough when the team sank to the bottom of the American League this summer.

Ryan handed out big money to pitchers Ervin Santana, Ricky Nolasco and Phil Hughes in an effort to address the team's biggest weakness in the starting rotation, but all have been disappointments.

The decisions to sign South Korean slugger Byung Ho Park, hold on to veteran third baseman Trevor Plouffe this offseason and move promising youngster Miguel Sano from third base to right field all proved to be ill-fated. Sano was injured while playing in the outfield and is back at third base, Plouffe is on the disabled list and his trade value has been diminished and Park has been sent to Triple-A to try to ease his transition from Korea to the United States.

 

[Panerista]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Tell that to Terry Ryan, who built the #1 farm system from 2014-16 and formed the teams that reached the playoffs from 2002-2004, 2006, 2009 and 2010.

 

Ryan stepped down in 2007 but returned in 2011 after hand-picked successor Bill Smith could not continue the team's success.

The Twins are in the middle of their fifth losing season in the last six years. A 2015 season that saw them return to contention in the division proved not to be enough when the team sank to the bottom of the American League this summer.

Ryan handed out big money to pitchers Ervin Santana, Ricky Nolasco and Phil Hughes in an effort to address the team's biggest weakness in the starting rotation, but all have been disappointments.

The decisions to sign South Korean slugger Byung Ho Park, hold on to veteran third baseman Trevor Plouffe this offseason and move promising youngster Miguel Sano from third base to right field all proved to be ill-fated. Sano was injured while playing in the outfield and is back at third base, Plouffe is on the disabled list and his trade value has been diminished and Park has been sent to Triple-A to try to ease his transition from Korea to the United States.

 

So the Twins rebuild was going well and it went south.  What does that have to do with the ridiculous statement "The rebuild isn't going well"?

[caulfield12]

Out of the 5 most important players on the current roster, only Rodon has taken a big step forward.  If you want to include Fulmer, it’s 1/6.

Or you can argue Lopez and Anderson have made “tremendous or moderate” progress, but that’s open to interpretation. 

[SCCWS]

12 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

Well, Hahn will certainly be fired if this run doesn't work. Dombrowski got his full run with the Tigers, from foundation to maturation. The DBacks guys got canned because their moves were insane -- no one thinks Hahn's direction is off like there's was.

It's actually pretty similar to Preller with the Padres, if you think about it. He comes in, states they're being aggressive, spends a bunch of money when no one on Earth thought it could possibly be enough. Lo and behold -- it wasn't, the team was a joke, and now Preller gets the chance to tear it down and do it his way. 

Once you give the guy the task and the vote of confidence, you gotta let him see it through. You could argue that Preller/Hahn both should have been let go before the rebuild started, but once you start you gotta let them see it through -- assuming they aren't Stewart-ing it.

Not sure that is a good comparison. Dombrowski came in from another organization.  But from a rebuild standpoint, he went into a new organization in Fla. and they played in the World Series in his 5th year. He then went into Detroit and they played in the World Series in Year 5.  I am not sure how you judge Hahn. He was promoted to "GM" in 2013. But he started the rebuild in 2017.  So Hahn can be criticized for starting the rebuild 3-4 years too late. That is assuming  he had the power to do so. But if we want to compare him from a rebuild standpoint to Dombrowski, then he should have the 2021 team in the World Series. 

[wrathofhahn]

33 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

How many Astros came from sign and dump guys?  They probably had more going out...due to roster backlogs.  Too many good poisition players at each level to hold onto all of them.  Just imagine if they had Bryant AND JD Martinez added to that monster team.  Grossman, Domingo Santana, Preston Tucker, Singleton, all would have had homes with this year’s White Sox team. 

Same with the Cubs in 2011-13...who else did they trade that still held ANY value, besides Starling Castro?

Tatis JR the number two prospect in MLB came from one of these type of deals. The Yankees got boatloads of prospects for both Chapman and McCann in those deals.

It happens more often then you think mostly it requires you to take a chance on some of the more highly regarded lower level guys who maybe further away.

But that isn't the point the point is we could use some of these guys in the minor leagues. Our system is top heavy and most of the guys from 20+ down are old. There really isn't any second wave 2-3 years after the top guys get called up.

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, AustinIllini said:

So the Twins rebuild was going well and it went south.  What does that have to do with the ridiculous statement "The rebuild isn't going well"?

We won’t know how the rebuild is actually going for a little while. To think it’s going great right now is just as proposterous. You don’t get paid for what you do in AA. 

As far as Hahn, as I stated, the time to can him was before the rebuild. It isn’t like he had a year and a few Hail Marys to get this team winning. He has been part of the decision making process for well over a decade prior to the rebuild, with great early results, and not much since. I don’t always agree with balta, but I think it is hard to argue any other franchise at the point the White Sox were at when they were going to pull the plug and start over, would have brought someone else in to do the job considering the guy in place is one of the reasons they had to do it, and it wasn’t like he had assembled a team that won, won, won, and just got too old and expensive. Most teams with guys like Sale and Q and Eaton signed cheaply, try to build around them, but the Sox cubbard was so bare, due in large part to the team that is now in place, they couldn’t do it. If this rebuild works, it will all be forgotten. The White Sox rebuild got a Moncada, Kopech, Basabe, Giolito, Dunning, Lopez, Jimenez, Cease headstart on the others. No rebuild is easy. But this one should be easier than most. See it through, yes, to a point. 

Theo had nothing to do with where the Cubs were at when he came to them. Hahn cannot say the same when he became GM.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Chicago White Sox]

40 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

Tatis JR the number two prospect in MLB came from one of these type of deals. The Yankees got boatloads of prospects for both Chapman and McCann in those deals.

It happens more often then you think mostly it requires you to take a chance on some of the more highly regarded lower level guys who maybe further away.

But that isn't the point the point is we could use some of these guys in the minor leagues. Our system is top heavy and most of the guys from 20+ down are old. There really isn't any second wave 2-3 years after the top guys get called up.

None of those guys were sign & dumps like your suggesting.

[iamshack]

42 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

We won’t know how the rebuild is actually going for a little while. To think it’s going great right now is just as proposterous. You don’t get paid for what you do in AA. 

As far as Hahn, as I stated, the time to can him was before the rebuild. It isn’t like he had a year and a few Hail Marys to get this team winning. He has been part of the decision making process for well over a decade prior to the rebuild, with great early results, and not much since. I don’t always agree with balta, but I think it is hard to argue any other franchise at the point the White Sox were at when they were going to pull the plug and start over, would have brought someone else in to do the job considering the guy in place is one of the reasons they had to do it, and it wasn’t like he had assembled a team that won, won, won, and just got too old and expensive. Most teams with guys like Sale and Q and Eaton signed cheaply, try to build around them, but the Sox cubbard was so bare, due in large part to the team that is now in place, they couldn’t do it. If this rebuild works, it will all be forgotten. The White Sox rebuild got a Moncada, Kopech, Basabe, Giolito, Dunning, Lopez, Jimenez, Cease headstart on the others. No rebuild is easy. But this one should be easier than most. See it through, yes, to a point. 

Theo had nothing to do with where the Cubs were at when he came to them. Hahn cannot say the same when he became GM.

Someone please answer this question for me:

What, within this FO’s control, has happened since December 2016, that would lead anyone to believe they should be fired?

The point that something has occurred since then which is even remotely close to a fireable offense is entirely lost on me.