OT: Sale

[Real]

11 hours ago, Scoots said:

Or like whenever he would pout and throw a hissy fit when he would give up a few hits late in the game, get all mad, then all of a sudden he's throwing batting practice. Wasn't just in the clubhouse. Was on the field too. I don't care if he is a HOF type pitcher. What good is a pitcher to your staff anyway if he (esp your ace) can't win in high leverage situations?

Did you just start watching baseball?

[ScootsMcGoots]

1 hour ago, Real said:

Did you just start watching baseball?

Did you ever watch Sale's starts? Look, I understand he is probably the best overall pitcher in the AL. But, he hasn't proven he can pitch in high pressure situations. When he pitched last off-season for Boston, he didn't whine and complain but he sure wasn't effective. Even during this year's all star game he was knocked around a bit in the 1st inning.  He did the same thing with us in high pressure situations. 

Maybe I'm being too harsh but I remember him playing a big role in a lot of the drama and inefficiency that went on in that Sox clubhouse, esp. during the whole LaRoche debacle and NTM the jerseys...talking about KW, among other things. No matter how you twist it to make it justifiable, That to me is as unattractive as a player can get. Act like a professional.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Scoots

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, Scoots said:

Did you ever watch Sale's starts? Look, I understand he is probably the best overall pitcher in the AL. But, he hasn't proven he can pitch in high pressure situations. When he pitched last off-season for Boston, he didn't whine and complain but he sure wasn't effective. Even during this year's all star game he was knocked around a bit in the 1st inning.  He did the same thing with us in high pressure situations. 

Maybe I'm being too harsh but I remember him playing a big role in a lot of the drama and inefficiency that went on in that Sox clubhouse, esp. during the whole LaRoche debacle and NTM the jerseys...talking about KW, among other things. No matter how you twist it to make it justifiable, That to me is as unattractive as a player can get. Act like a professional.

Ok, seriously, what high pressure situations was Sale in since 2012 with the White Sox? That team was out of the pennant race by June every year. I will note that for those teams that were already out of the race he wasn't that great down the stretch, but in part I think that's his arm - skinny guy getting tired out in the 2nd half because the manager completely burned him out in June every year. 2012 down the stretch was probably the peak of that, as Sale was (stupidly) put in the 2011 bullpen by the Sox and so anything he did down the stretch in 2012 was just stretching his arm out, Quintana hit the same innings wall in September of that year. 

You are absolutely correct he was a part of that drama, but an equally important part of that drama was that he spent 2013-2016 in an organization where the manager had checked out, and that drama finally blew up in the end.

 

[Dick Allen]

The fact that the Sox had all these players signed to team friendly contracts and couldn't build a contender around them, speaks volumes about the architects. Not exactly a situation White Sox fans should have a lot of confidence. Eventually, pieces will have to be added that aren't minor leaguers. How has that turned out?  Getting great prospects for these guys and drafting good players when you are in the top 10 isn't all that difficult. The difficult part is development, and acquiring the other pieces to get them over the top. I hope it all works out, but based on recent results,  expecting it is foolish. 

[Panerista]

43 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The fact that the Sox had all these players signed to team friendly contracts and couldn't build a contender around them, speaks volumes about the architects. Not exactly a situation White Sox fans should have a lot of confidence. Eventually, pieces will have to be added that aren't minor leaguers. How has that turned out?  Getting great prospects for these guys and drafting good players when you are in the top 10 isn't all that difficult. The difficult part is development, and acquiring the other pieces to get them over the top. I hope it all works out, but based on recent results,  expecting it is foolish. 

The White Sox were damned if you do, damned if you don't.  The farm system was trashed after years of reloading, so they had little they could use to trade and had to settle for high price, low return free agents.  Management has clearly changed their philosophy, so I'm not all that worried about Rick Hahn.  He has done everything right since he decided to rebuild.

Edited August 14, 2018 by AustinIllini

[ScootsMcGoots]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Ok, seriously, what high pressure situations was Sale in since 2012 with the White Sox? That team was out of the pennant race by June every year. I will note that for those teams that were already out of the race he wasn't that great down the stretch, but in part I think that's his arm - skinny guy getting tired out in the 2nd half because the manager completely burned him out in June every year. 2012 down the stretch was probably the peak of that, as Sale was (stupidly) put in the 2011 bullpen by the Sox and so anything he did down the stretch in 2012 was just stretching his arm out, Quintana hit the same innings wall in September of that year. 

You are absolutely correct he was a part of that drama, but an equally important part of that drama was that he spent 2013-2016 in an organization where the manager had checked out, and that drama finally blew up in the end.

 

I guess high pressured situations is a relative term. I don't define it as just being post-season. 

[Balta1701]

45 minutes ago, Scoots said:

I guess high pressured situations is a relative term. I don't define it as just being post-season. 

I'm ok with a high pressure situation definition that includes the regular season. Name one this franchise had. They were dead and out of the race by June. I guess opening day is a high pressure situation? 

[jenksycat]

4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Ok, seriously, what high pressure situations was Sale in since 2012 with the White Sox? That team was out of the pennant race by June every year. I will note that for those teams that were already out of the race he wasn't that great down the stretch, but in part I think that's his arm - skinny guy getting tired out in the 2nd half because the manager completely burned him out in June every year. 2012 down the stretch was probably the peak of that, as Sale was (stupidly) put in the 2011 bullpen by the Sox and so anything he did down the stretch in 2012 was just stretching his arm out, Quintana hit the same innings wall in September of that year. 

You are absolutely correct he was a part of that drama, but an equally important part of that drama was that he spent 2013-2016 in an organization where the manager had checked out, and that drama finally blew up in the end.

 

 He may not have been in many "high pressure" situations due to how garbage the White Sox have been...but he sure sucked in the few that he has been in.  He does also fade in the 2nd half...I don't know how you could possibly blame that on the White Sox, they put him specifically on a plan to try and make sure that didn't happen and he immediately threw that out when he got to the Red Sox and - shockingly - faded in the 2nd half last year again.   

He's fun to watch but IMO still needs to prove he can do it for a full season

[turnin' two]

22 hours ago, Scoots said:

Or like whenever he would pout and throw a hissy fit when he would give up a few hits late in the game, get all mad, then all of a sudden he's throwing batting practice. Wasn't just in the clubhouse. Was on the field too. I don't care if he is a HOF type pitcher. What good is a pitcher to your staff anyway if he (esp your ace) can't win in high leverage situations?

How many times in has career has Sale fit the "throwing batting practice" mantra.  I can't think of too many.  What high leverage situations did he have a chance to pitch in?

But anyways, someone who misses this guy:

4.22 ERA/ 120 IP/  105K/ 54 BB/  1.375 WHIP 

more than this guy:

1.97/ 146/ 219/ 33/ .849

well, you obviously aren't having an objective discussion.

 

The Sox traded Q as the bottom was falling out, yet still got peak valu;e for him.  Sale was likely at peak value due to his contract situation but as a pitcher, he has been better than he was with the Sox.  He is an astounding talent that is worth whatever headaches you have to put up with.  Q is basically a guy.  There are tons more like him in the league.  Sale is elite.  There are very few pitchers that can do what he does.   

Edited August 14, 2018 by turnin' two

[ScootsMcGoots]

58 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

How many times in has career has Sale fit the "throwing batting practice" mantra.  I can't think of too many.  What high leverage situations did he have a chance to pitch in?

But anyways, someone who misses this guy:

4.22 ERA/ 120 IP/  105K/ 54 BB/  1.375 WHIP 

more than this guy:

1.97/ 146/ 219/ 33/ .849

well, you obviously aren't having an objective discussion.

 

The Sox traded Q as the bottom was falling out, yet still got peak valu;e for him.  Sale was likely at peak value due to his contract situation but as a pitcher, he has been better than he was with the Sox.  He is an astounding talent that is worth whatever headaches you have to put up with.  Q is basically a guy.  There are tons more like him in the league.  Sale is elite.  There are very few pitchers that can do what he does.   

We'll see how he does in the playoffs and see if he proves me wrong. You are right, I'm not having an objective discussion. I'm going off my memory of Sale sucking it up when it got down to the wire, and doing it often. Lots of late, close game situations where he would fold under pressure. And in recent history he has done the same thing when he was on the big stage. Yeah, his numbers are amazing. Again, I am not denying that. And again, maybe he has grown up in the last 2 years. He is obviously in his prime right now and maybe he has matured. But he needs to prove in the playoffs this year that he can carry the Red Sox to a championship.

And, if you want to have the Q discussion, yeah right now he is basically "a guy," but I seem to remember him being just as if not more effective than Sale was in 2016 (which is probably why we got such a great return for him, maybe even better). And I remember actual numbers being shown for that during that time, I just don't know them now nor do I want to take the time to look them up.

[OmarComing25]

1 hour ago, Scoots said:

We'll see how he does in the playoffs and see if he proves me wrong. You are right, I'm not having an objective discussion. I'm going off my memory of Sale sucking it up when it got down to the wire, and doing it often. Lots of late, close game situations where he would fold under pressure. And in recent history he has done the same thing when he was on the big stage. Yeah, his numbers are amazing. Again, I am not denying that. And again, maybe he has grown up in the last 2 years. He is obviously in his prime right now and maybe he has matured. But he needs to prove in the playoffs this year that he can carry the Red Sox to a championship.

And, if you want to have the Q discussion, yeah right now he is basically "a guy," but I seem to remember him being just as if not more effective than Sale was in 2016 (which is probably why we got such a great return for him, maybe even better). And I remember actual numbers being shown for that during that time, I just don't know them now nor do I want to take the time to look them up.

You're just making stuff up.

Sale's slashing line against in high leverage situations in his career: .207/.264/.334.

That's actually better than he's performed in low leverage situations: .231/.286/.369

Late and close: .192/.257/.297

Tied: .212/.267/.333

Within 1 run: .209/.264/.331

His numbers are actually better when the pressure is on (late and close and 2 outs with RISP are when he's been most dominant) and worst when the score differential is 4 runs or more, seems like your memory is faulty.

Got the numbers from here.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=salech01&year=Career&t=p

Edited August 14, 2018 by OmarComing25

[ScootsMcGoots]

Doesn't matter 

9 minutes ago, OmarComing25 said:

You're just making stuff up.

Sale's slashing line against in high leverage situations in his career: .207/.264/.334.

That's actually better than he's performed in low leverage situations: .231/.286/.369

Late and close: .192/.257/.297

Tied: .212/.267/.333

Within 1 run: .209/.264/.331

His numbers are actually better when the pressure is on (late and close and 2 outs with RISP are when he's been most dominant) and worst when the score differential is 4 runs or more, seems like your memory is faulty.

Got the numbers from here.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=salech01&year=Career&t=p

All it takes is one hit to screw the game up. 1. lets say You only allow 5 hits in 15 high leverage situations (in 10-15 different games) in, idk, let's say 50 at bats. That's a very low batting average. But all 5 of those hits lost you the game. You still blew 5 games. It doesn't matter how many hits or runners you allow in those situations, it's how many times you allow winning runs to score. It's WHEN you allow the hit(s) to happen, not how many. Those numbers mean nothing to me.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Scoots

[fathom]

In 2012 I remember him having a fastball that looked like Mark Buehrle in a crucial Sunday night game at Detroit during the collapse.

[Dick Allen]

Anyone wants to rip Sale for loving the Drake or cutting up jerseys, that is fair game. But for pitching? C’mon man.

[ScootsMcGoots]

6 minutes ago, fathom said:

In 2012 I remember him having a fastball that looked like Mark Buehrle in a crucial Sunday night game at Detroit during the collapse.

Yeah one game that sticks out in my head is blowing one against the Angels late. I think he gave up a grand slam to Trout in like the 8th.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Scoots

[OmarComing25]

46 minutes ago, Scoots said:

Doesn't matter 

All it takes is one hit to screw the game up. 1. lets say You only allow 5 hits in 15 high leverage situations (in 10-15 different games) in, idk, let's say 50 at bats. That's a very low batting average. But all 5 of those hits lost you the game. You still blew 5 games. It doesn't matter how many hits or runners you allow in those situations, it's how many times you allow winning runs to score. It's WHEN you allow the hit(s) to happen, not how many. Those numbers mean nothing to me.

That logic doesn't make any sense. Of course hits in high leverage situations are bad, but the point is he gives up fewer of them than he usually does in those situations. Every pitcher has blown games, you're just using selective memory to pick out the games he did blow while conveniently forgetting all the games where he was dominant. Show some actual evidence that he blows up in big moments more often than the average pitcher does instead of just meaningless anecdotes. The numbers mean a lot more than your memory does.

Edited August 15, 2018 by OmarComing25

[ScootsMcGoots]

5 minutes ago, OmarComing25 said:

That logic doesn't make any sense. Of course hits in high leverage situations are bad, but the point is he gives up fewer of them than he usually does in those situations. Every pitcher has blown games, you're just using selective memory to pick out the games he did blow while conveniently forgetting all the games where he was dominant. Show some actual evidence that he blows up in big moments more often than the average pitcher does instead of just meaningless anecdotes. The numbers mean a lot more than your memory does.

It does make sense, if you think about it. I never said the numbers didn't mean more. I iust said they mean nothing to me lol. All I'm stating here is my personal opinion. You don't have to agree with me. You can dig up all the stats you want. I know that I remember Sale not pitching well often.when something was on the line. I don't have specifics, and I don't feel like taking the time to look up the games to defend my point. So, my argument is invalid I suppose.

[OmarComing25]

6 minutes ago, Scoots said:

It does make sense, if you think about it. I never said the numbers didn't mean more. I iust said they mean nothing to me lol. All I'm stating here is my personal opinion. You don't have to agree with me. You can dig up all the stats you want. I know that I remember Sale not pitching well often.when something was on the line. I don't have specifics, and I don't feel like taking the time to look up the games to defend my point. So, my argument is invalid I suppose.

Your argument was more about runs than hits, but even if you just look at runs the numbers still go against your theory. You said he often implodes when the game is late and close but he's at his most dominant in those situations, and he not only gives up fewer hits but fewer runs and homeruns than normal as well. He performs better with runners on base than with the bases empty, he also performs significantly better when he has the lead than when he's behind. You can say this all means nothing to you, but if he really wasn't pitching well when the game was on the line it would show up somewhere in the numbers. Instead all of the results show the opposite.

[YonderLaroche]

Sale had piss poor defense for most his years on the Sox, and lack of offense.  His fits and frustrations make were ok with me.  Management failed him and the fan base by drafting very poorly ,being cheap on free agency , and bad trades.  Good luck to Chris and hopefully he wins a world series , big contract and hof.  Also ZERO chance he even considers ever returning to the white Sox.

Edited August 15, 2018 by bryank1202

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, bryank1202 said:

Sale had piss poor defense for most his years on the Sox, and lack of offense.  His fits and frustrations make were ok with me.  Management failed him and the fan base by drafting very poorly ,being cheap on free agency , and bad trades.  Good luck to Chris and hopefully he wins a world series , big contract and hof.  Also ZERO chance he even considers ever returning to the white Sox.

Still no reason to act like an a$$.

[Jose Abreu]

10 hours ago, bryank1202 said:

Sale had piss poor defense for most his years on the Sox, and lack of offense.  His fits and frustrations make were ok with me.  Management failed him and the fan base by drafting very poorly ,being cheap on free agency , and bad trades.  Good luck to Chris and hopefully he wins a world series , big contract and hof.  Also ZERO chance he even considers ever returning to the white Sox.

Quintana had the same defense (if not worse) and worse run support, yet never had any major fits or frustrations. 

[FloydBannister1983]

14 hours ago, Scoots said:

Yeah one game that sticks out in my head is blowing one against the Angels late. I think he gave up a grand slam to Trout in like the 8th.

That game was June 7, 2014.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/batter_vs_pitcher.cgi?batter=troutmi01&pitcher=salech01

[LittleHurt05]

14 hours ago, fathom said:

In 2012 I remember him having a fastball that looked like Mark Buehrle in a crucial Sunday night game at Detroit during the collapse.

Is this the Chris Sale thread or the Jake Peavy thread?

[YonderLaroche]

25 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

Quintana had the same defense (if not worse) and worse run support, yet never had any major fits or frustrations. 

No but Sale is the most talented pitcher in baseball, and has a drive to WIN.  If you compare them today you see who the real deal is (Sale) and who can't handle pressure or Lacks pure talent (Quintana).  Sale wanted to be the best and win , and the defense did him no favors.  He's out there to get three outs a inning , not 4 or 5.   

[Balta1701]

31 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

Quintana had the same defense (if not worse) and worse run support, yet never had any major fits or frustrations. 

That fact that he had every right to a major fit or frustration and never did is why I feel so bad for him now that he's no longer having that kind of success while pitching.