Heyman: Eloy/Kopech may not be promoted this year

[wrathofhahn]

Good

[Wanne]

17 minutes ago, JuliusO1274 said:

I'd be shocked if he is a Sept call up. I wanted him up this year but now it is too late. Calling him up in Sept still wastes a year of control. If they were going to call him up this year it should have been weeks ago, months even. 

That's the idiotic thing about it.  They twist the rules for rosters to shove another umpteen people in the dugout for September...but count it as service time.  Effing ridiculous.

[35thstreetswarm]

Awesome.  Further confirmation that Hahn gets it.

[Dick Allen]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Please tell me what is incorrect about that statement. You cannot mention service time, you have to tell me how Eloy does not deserve a callup and how Kopech does not deserve a callup, and how waiting for next year is actually better for their developme8nt. 

No one has said they don't deserve a call up, but with where the team is, and the current rules, it makes little sense.  If you had enough money yo buy exactly one lottery ticket and you were told this week's was worth $500 million but you had zero chance to win, and next week's was worth $500 k, but you did have a slight chance to win, what are you going to buy?

Kopechs innings will be fine. He isn't going to go 180 innings next season anyways. The vast majority of pitchers  Eloy would face in September should be in AAA, and he supposedly does not gain anything from that anyway. So save the service time. If they had a shot at a wild card, it would be a different story

I get it's more likely than not the service time issue will be moot. But there is a chance it will be valuable.  Far more valuable than a September call up during a rebuild.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

No one has said they don't deserve a call up, but with where the team is, and the current rules, it makes little sense.  If you had enough money yo buy exactly one lottery ticket and you were told this week's was worth $500 million but you had zero chance to win, and next week's was worth $500 k, but you did have a slight chance to win, what are you going to buy?

Kopechs innings will be fine. He isn't going to go 180 innings next season anyways. The vast majority of pitchers  Eloy would face in September should be in AAA, and he supposedly does not gain anything from that anyway. So save the service time. If they had a shot at a wild card, it would be a different story

I get it's more likely than not the service time issue will be moot. But there is a chance it will be valuable.  Far more valuable than a September call up during a rebuild.

You told me that I had said something wrong when I typed the statement "if they were doing what is best for their development, Eloy would have been called up last month, and Kopech after 2 more starts." You told me "You might want to reread what you wrote" and quoted that statement. I'm still waiting for you to tell me why you quoted that statement and told me to reread what I wrote, because you just wrote 3 paragraphs service time, not about what is best for their development, and without telling me anything about what was wrong with that statement you told me to reread. This one is epically weird, even I can't follow how you can tell me there's something wrong with that statement and then follow it up with "no one has said they don't deserve a callup". 

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

You told me that I had said something wrong when I typed the statement "if they were doing what is best for their development, Eloy would have been called up last month, and Kopech after 2 more starts." You told me "You might want to reread what you wrote" and quoted that statement. I'm still waiting for you to tell me why you quoted that statement and told me to reread what I wrote, because you just wrote 3 paragraphs service time, not about what is best for their development, and without telling me anything about what was wrong with that statement you told me to reread. This one is epically weird, even I can't follow how you can tell me there's something wrong with that statement and then follow it up with "no one has said they don't deserve a callup". 

I put both your posts together. You said something was best for their development, then denied it. Then accusedme of saying they don’t deserve a call up, which never happened. Very strange.

[ptatc]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

No one has said they don't deserve a call up, but with where the team is, and the current rules, it makes little sense.  If you had enough money yo buy exactly one lottery ticket and you were told this week's was worth $500 million but you had zero chance to win, and next week's was worth $500 k, but you did have a slight chance to win, what are you going to buy?

Kopechs innings will be fine. He isn't going to go 180 innings next season anyways. The vast majority of pitchers  Eloy would face in September should be in AAA, and he supposedly does not gain anything from that anyway. So save the service time. If they had a shot at a wild card, it would be a different story

I get it's more likely than not the service time issue will be moot. But there is a chance it will be valuable.  Far more valuable than a September call up during a rebuild.

I agree with only the September call up part but you are still missing the overall point.

I is likely that rookies will go through growing pains. Do you want the players to go through the growing pains while the Sox are trying to be competitive ? Or would you prefer that they were called up this year started to learn through the growing pains this year and were better players next year?

This is why if the current group of young players possibly performing well would have made a difference. If they were building blocks to compete next year they should have called them up this year to be ready next year. However, since they all struggled, the odds of competing next year have decreased. 

[SleepyWhiteSox]

5 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

You told me that I had said something wrong when I typed the statement "if they were doing what is best for their development, Eloy would have been called up last month, and Kopech after 2 more starts." You told me "You might want to reread what you wrote" and quoted that statement. I'm still waiting for you to tell me why you quoted that statement and told me to reread what I wrote, because you just wrote 3 paragraphs service time, not about what is best for their development, and without telling me anything about what was wrong with that statement you told me to reread. This one is epically weird, even I can't follow how you can tell me there's something wrong with that statement and then follow it up with "no one has said they don't deserve a callup". 

You both stated opinions.  And you refused to offer up any facts to back up your claim when asked.  Sometimes your opinions aren't always right over someone else's just because you said it.

[ChiSox59]

In other news, water is wet.

[flavum]

Kopech was on the Score this morning. Nothing earth shattering. Hopes he gets called up, but understands they have a plan.

Edited August 18, 2018 by flavum

[Sticky Stuff]

2 minutes ago, flavum said:

Kopech was on the Score this morning. Nothing earth shattering. Hopes he gets called up, but understands they have a plan.

Did he say anything about hitting the guy who   bunted off him. 

[flavum]

1 minute ago, DH in the NL said:

Did he say anything about hitting the guy who   bunted off him. 

No, and I doubt Levine and Esposito even heard about that the other night.

[Sticky Stuff]

2 minutes ago, flavum said:

No, and I doubt Levine and Esposito even heard about that the other night.

If they actually paid any attention to his last start that would’ve been a great question to get Kopech’s take on the whole situation. It would’ve been worth listening too.

[wrathofhahn]

12 hours ago, ptatc said:

I agree with only the September call up part but you are still missing the overall point.

I is likely that rookies will go through growing pains. Do you want the players to go through the growing pains while the Sox are trying to be competitive ? Or would you prefer that they were called up this year started to learn through the growing pains this year and were better players next year?

This is why if the current group of young players possibly performing well would have made a difference. If they were building blocks to compete next year they should have called them up this year to be ready next year. However, since they all struggled, the odds of competing next year have decreased. 

I've gotten into this argument with others before but MLB is not a developmental league. It's not meant for players to go through "growing pains" it's meant for winning games.

There also isn't any evidence that MLB is better at developing players then the MILB. Afterall coaches in AAA/AA have much more time to spend 1-1 on players and in todays age they all have access to the film they can see what areas that need to be worked on.

[SCCWS]

13 hours ago, ptatc said:

I agree with only the September call up part but you are still missing the overall point.

I is likely that rookies will go through growing pains. Do you want the players to go through the growing pains while the Sox are trying to be competitive ? Or would you prefer that they were called up this year started to learn through the growing pains this year and were better players next year?

This is why if the current group of young players possibly performing well would have made a difference. If they were building blocks to compete next year they should have called them up this year to be ready next year. However, since they all struggled, the odds of competing next year have decreased. 

FWIW; There is also this school of thought on the Red Sox hiring of Alex Cora.  But I think Dombrowski is looking at it from a good team versus a struggling. rebuilding team.  Another factor can be a good team bringing up a young player versus a bad team bringing up 3 or 4 at once.  MLB coaches could get spread out helping too many young players at once.    

 

" Dombrowski believed then, as he does now, that a younger manager made sense given the increasing number of young players in the game. Since 2004, the average age of major league players has decreased steadily. 

For position players, it was 28.3 last season, a one-year drop since 2004. The Red Sox have experienced an even steeper decline. They went from 30.1 in 2011 to 28.4 last season. As teams better understand aging curves, the value of younger players has increased. It’s better to get a talented player to the majors too early and finish the development process there instead of wasting one of his peak seasons in Triple A."

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2018/03/23/development-young-big-leaguers-taken-another-level/6s29HWcy6vRyoFh4edMLDI/story.html

 

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

I've gotten into this argument with others before but MLB is not a developmental league. It's not meant for players to go through "growing pains" it's meant for winning games.

There also isn't any evidence that MLB is better at developing players then the MILB. Afterall coaches in AAA/AA have much more time to spend 1-1 on players and in todays age they all have access to the film they can see what areas that need to be worked on.

It's not that it's meant as a developmental league, although some teams do that. The fact is that the talent in the MLB is better than the minors. There is a certain amount of learning that goes with facing the best talent. It's going to happen. each time they move up a level they need to learn how to face that level of talent. There is no place in the minors they will expereince facing someone like Verlander with the velocity and the curveball and the control. They need to learn that when they face that talent.

[Two-Gun Pete]

2 hours ago, ptatc said:

It's not that it's meant as a developmental league, although some teams do that. The fact is that the talent in the MLB is better than the minors. There is a certain amount of learning that goes with facing the best talent. It's going to happen. each time they move up a level they need to learn how to face that level of talent. There is no place in the minors they will expereince facing someone like Verlander with the velocity and the curveball and the control. They need to learn that when they face that talent.

All of this is well and good, if this org had any track record of success. But, they don't.

 

That said, I wish this org had let every top prospect,  such as a guy like Moncada, FINISH his work v. AAA opposition, BEFORE being called up.

Ya know, get his K rate down in AAA, BEFORE being called up? Or hit better as a RHH than an obese, 38 year old AL middle reliever hits in extra innings in interleague play? Or learn how to protect better in 2 strike counts? Or how/when to be aggressive EARLY in counts? Or have enough reps to be a repeatable and consistent defender? Once he "checks all the boxes," THEN let him face Verlander and all the other titans of pitching in the world, and not a heartbeat before.

 

Oftentimes, the world has a certain "syntax" to it; i.e. a kid has to learn to add and subtract, BEFORE taking on Calculus in school. Similarly, I'd rather have a prospect VANQUISH, PUNISH, and thoroughly CONQUER AAA before they sniff MLB, not "sorta-kinda do good, so let's call him up." Or, "he's got tools, so he'll be OK, even if he hasn't proved it yet, but let's call him up, anyway."

 

As it pertains to Jimenez and Kopech, I salute the fact that the FO finally figured this out. These two certainly won't be hurt by staying in Charlotte until next April, and possibly, could be helped in their path to stardom.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Two-Gun Pete

[ptatc]

41 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

All of this is well and good, if this org had any track record of success. But, they don't.

 

That said, I wish this org had let every top prospect,  such as a guy like Moncada, FINISH his work v. AAA opposition, BEFORE being called up.

Ya know, get his K rate down in AAA, BEFORE being called up? Or hit better as a RHH than an obese, 38 year old AL middle reliever hits in extra innings in interleague play? Or learn how to protect better in 2 strike counts? Or how/when to be aggressive EARLY in counts? Or have enough reps to be a repeatable and consistent defender? Once he "checks all the boxes," THEN let him face Verlander and all the other titans of pitching in the world, and not a heartbeat before.

 

Oftentimes, the world has a certain "syntax" to it; i.e. a kid has to learn to add and subtract, BEFORE taking on Calculus in school. Similarly, I'd rather have a prospect VANQUISH, PUNISH, and thoroughly CONQUER AAA before they sniff MLB, not "sorta-kinda do good, so let's call him up." Or, "he's got tools, so he'll be OK, even if he hasn't proved it yet, but let's call him up, anyway."

 

As it pertains to Jimenez and Kopech, I salute the fact that the FO finally figured this out. These two certainly won't be hurt by staying in Charlotte until next April, and possibly, could be helped in their path to stardom.

By that logic, if this organization has no track record of success, it doesn't matter what they do it will fail. If you don't think they will succeed then go with the conventional ideas that most other organizations use, which is what I described.

[Two-Gun Pete]

2 hours ago, ptatc said:

By that logic, if this organization has no track record of success, it doesn't matter what they do it will fail. If you don't think they will succeed then go with the conventional ideas that most other organizations use, which is what I described.

Yeah, after the "Rip-Roaring Successes" of Fulmer, Lopez, Giolito, Anderson, and Moncada, let's just keep running our top prospects up! Its worked so well so far, right?

[What was that line about "doing the same thing over and over again, yet expecting different results?"]

[BlackSox13]

9 hours ago, flavum said:

Kopech was on the Score this morning. Nothing earth shattering. Hopes he gets called up, but understands they have a plan.

Makes me think maybe the Sox have talked to Kopech and explained they want the extra year of control and be ready for a mid-April call-up. Better off being blunt and honest than make up excuses.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Yeah, after the "Rip-Roaring Successes" of Fulmer, Lopez, Giolito, Anderson, and Moncada, let's just keep running our top prospects up! Its worked so well so far, right?

[What was that line about "doing the same thing over and over again, yet expecting different results?"]

If you the the post, it says do what other organizations do, not what the Sox normally do.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, BlackSox13 said:

Makes me think maybe the Sox have talked to Kopech and explained they want the extra year of control and be ready for a mid-April call-up. Better off being blunt and honest than make up excuses.

Then put a 7 year deal on the table for them and stop wasting time. 

[BlackSox13]

18 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Then put a 7 year deal on the table for them and stop wasting time. 

With Kopech 22 and Eloy not quite 22 yet, no time is being wasted.

Edited August 19, 2018 by BlackSox13

[ptatc]

57 minutes ago, BlackSox13 said:

With Kopech 22 and Eloy not quite 22 yet, no time is being wasted.

It is if Kopech needs shoulder or elbow surgery within the next 5 years.

[BlackSox13]

6 hours ago, ptatc said:

It is if Kopech needs shoulder or elbow surgery within the next 5 years.

If he eventually needs shoulder surgery what does it matter if he pitches for the Sox now or mid-April next year?