The " Tank" is dead . Let there be Light !

[Jose Abreu]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I see that a few of you still think Machado will agree to play 3rd base despite all evidence to the contrary from him.  Do you think he'll change his mind when huge dollars are thrown at him by teams that say we want to sign you but as a 3rd baseman ? He really hasn't budged on his stance that he is a SS at all.

He did play 3B for LA while Turner was injured. I think that if he really gets $350 million, he'd move back. I'm sure he's also probably smart enough to understand that he's a much better defensive third baseman than he is a defensive shortstop. 

[Dick Allen]

When I first saw this thread I thought something happened to Viciedo. I am glad I was mistaken. BTW, Daniel Palka is pretty much the left handed version of Viciedo.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Dick Allen

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

10 hours ago, ChiliIrishHammock24 said:

Nope. I want our bullpen to blow any and all games. Complete meltdowns. 

Wait so potential pieces to the future pen like Burr, Covey, Vieira, Fry and anyone I am forgetting you want them to suck ?I'm not sure if you really mean what you said about losing all but 3 games. What would that accomplish  ? First it's not going to happen. Let's say realistically the worst the Sox can do is win another 10ish  games . AT this point the Sox probably are stuck right were they are as far as our draft status . We could pass Detroit and lose a spot but it's pretty unlikely we catch the Oriole or Royals . Are we gaining on anyone else we could lose another spot in the draft to besides Detroit ?

Edited August 26, 2018 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Chicago White Sox]

19 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I see that a few of you still think Machado will agree to play 3rd base despite all evidence to the contrary from him.  Do you think he'll change his mind when huge dollars are thrown at him by teams that say we want to sign you but as a 3rd baseman ? He really hasn't budged on his stance that he is a SS at all.

I think he was adamant about playing SS this year to increase his market.  Being able to play the entire left side of the infield greatly increases the number of teams potentially interested in him.  And he may very well prefer playing SS, but dollars will ultimately drive the decision.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

He’s had one season below an .860 OPS in the last four years.  I don’t see why we’d suddenly expect significantly less from a 26 year old going forward.  Add elite 3B defense and what his signing would mean to the organization and 10/$350M is clearly worth it IMO.  And I’m not against a Rendon signing, but I want to maximize my chances of landing a stud 3B and that means going after Manny this offseason and then Arenado & Rendon the following if we miss.

Here’s the thing. Every one is so fixated on landing a stud 3b. Honestly, I just want the Sox to land a stud or two regardless of position. I see no need to force a Machado signing if a guy like Harper, Grandal, or Goldy next winter presents better value. This lineup has so many holes right now and, outside of Eloy, the position player talent is pretty barren in AA and AAA. They need help wherever they can get it. If they end up with a surplus at a particular position, I’m sure they will have a need at another position to where they can then trade from their depth. Sign a guy like Harper, for example, and then you’re in a position to package a few of your top outfield prospects for a stud 3b if needed.

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Here’s the thing. Every one is so fixated on landing a stud 3b. Honestly, I just want the Sox to land a stud or two regardless of position. I see no need to force a Machado signing if a guy like Harper, Grandal, or Goldy next winter presents better value. This lineup has so many holes right now and, outside of Eloy, the position player talent is pretty barren in AA and AAA. They need help wherever they can get it. If they end up with a surplus at a particular position, I’m sure they will have a need at another position to where they can then trade from their depth. Sign a guy like Harper, for example, and then you’re in a position to package a few of your top outfield prospects for a stud 3b if needed.

I’m 100% aligned with this.  We should also be pursuing Harper while we go after Machado.  I lean towards Manny because he’s a far better organizational fit, but to your point we can always use the depth created by a Harper signing to fill other needs.  The goal is ultimately adding impact talent, not settling for B tier free agents.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

9 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I said it a week ago in the “16-16 since July 10” thread, the worst of the rebuild is certainly behind us. Let the fun begin ?

I actually contemplated using your thread when constructing my post. I only decided against it to make the contrast between the other threads I listed more stark.

But I will say that thread was definitely a prelude to this one.

Edited August 26, 2018 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Lip Man 1]

4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m 100% aligned with this.  We should also be pursuing Harper while we go after Machado.  I lean towards Manny because he’s a far better organizational fit, but to your point we can always use the depth created by a Harper signing to fill other needs.  The goal is ultimately adding impact talent, not settling for B tier free agents.

In a perfect world, you'd be right and I'm sure the Sox will make every effort to go after those guys this off season.

But it takes two to tango and I just don't see the interest coming from them unless the Sox dramatically overpay.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Lip Man 1

[kitekrazy]

 Great thread.  I'd like to see the team with some better on the field management.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

9 hours ago, daggins said:

The real test of whether the tank is over will be:

1. Can they at least play respectable baseball against the Yanks and Red Sox this week?

2. Will they call up Eloy on Sept 1?

If the answer to both is yes, then I buy that the tank is over.

I don't think any of those things matter that much. Right now the Sox are still a really bad team(albeit much better now that Kopech and Rodon are in the rotation and Giolito apparently having turned it around.) The Yanks and Red Sox are 2 of the best teams in baseball.

The Sox have already burned a year of service time on Kopech and though possible its unlikely they do the same with Eloy. Holding both down might've looked suspicious to the players union but calling up Kopech mitigates that. This season is already a lost cause but the death of tanking is more geared toward the off season and next year with a slight boost to our hopes this year with now seeing the light at the end of the tunnel after reaching a low point a month or so ago.

[oldsox]

I never bought the service time argument.  If those two are as good as we all think they are, they will get offered generous extensions in 2-4 years.  Every agent is not like Scott Boros, fortunately.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, oldsox said:

I never bought the service time argument.  If those two are as good as we all think they are, they will get offered generous extensions in 2-4 years.  Every agent is not like Scott Boros, fortunately.

I think service time has to be seriously considered when you are still maybe another year from a shot at the playoffs. That being said I thought both Kopech and Eloy deserved a call up They both were just doing so well. Eloy has had a tremendous year and bringing him up with the roll the Sox are on needlessly would hurt  draft status and burn service time. That's a double whammy that would be hard to take.

[Polar Bear]

43 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I think service time has to be seriously considered when you are still maybe another year from a shot at the playoffs. That being said I thought both Kopech and Eloy deserved a call up They both were just doing so well. Eloy has had a tremendous year and bringing him up with the roll the Sox are on needlessly would hurt  draft status and burn service time. That's a double whammy that would be hard to take.

At the same time the Sox pitching could keep the roll going into September and kill our draft status.  If that happens it would be better to have Eloy get the experience and start learning to hit big league pitchers now, instead of being a year behind 

[GreenSox]

The Sox may end up 20 below .500, which is an improvement.  And I hope they do.  Delmonico, Palka, Davidson are all playing for jobs - to escape  AAAA purgatory.  Engel wants more than 4th OF  status. And they are providing that proof.

But what will kill the draft status is the tanking of the Tigers and Padres; the Sox are only 6 behind a shiftless bunch of Rangers, and the Jays could do some tanking too.

Edited August 28, 2018 by GreenSox

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, Moncada said:

At the same time the Sox pitching could keep the roll going into September and kill our draft status.  If that happens it would be better to have Eloy get the experience and start learning to hit big league pitchers now, instead of being a year behind 

I don't see how you figure he would be a year behind. If he come up now he plays a little more than a month.When he comes up next April it equals around 2 months total. 1 month this year + 1 month next year. That is not a year. I'm pretty sure that will not hurt him.

It would suck if the Sox fell to around 10th in the draft after being 3rd practically all year. It's totally possible we pass the Tigers , Padres and Marlins but playing well enough to drop to 10th rather than 6 or 7 th would be a disaster. Remember the Astro's had the number 1 pick 2 years in a row . The higher you pick the better the chance of getting impact talent. 2017 we had pick 11, 2018 was 4th. It makes no sense whatsoever to cut our own throats in the draft.

It's really great we can see some hope for the future now that Kopech s here. Remember I'm the one that started this thread   but let's not get too carried away. Too many win's now are detrimental and useless to a season that was long ago lost.

[Polar Bear]

38 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't see how you figure he would be a year behind. If he come up now he plays a little more than a month.When he comes up next April it equals around 2 months total. 1 month this year + 1 month next year. That is not a year. I'm pretty sure that will not hurt him.

It would suck if the Sox fell to around 10th in the draft after being 3rd practically all year. It's totally possible we pass the Tigers , Padres and Marlins but playing well enough to drop to 10th rather than 6 or 7 th would be a disaster. Remember the Astro's had the number 1 pick 2 years in a row . The higher you pick the better the chance of getting impact talent. 2017 we had pick 11, 2018 was 4th. It makes no sense whatsoever to cut our own throats in the draft.

It's really great we can see some hope for the future now that Kopech s here. Remember I'm the one that started this thread   but let's not get too carried away. Too many win's now are detrimental and useless to a season that was long ago lost.

If Eloy doesn't come up now he loses the experience vs big league pitching and an entire off season to analyze, improve, and learn from those at bats. He would not get that chance until next off season which is a year from now, hence a year behind.  

I honestly see the Sox continuing winning and it's bc of the starting pitching. So it would be better if Eloy was up and learning instead of getting bored and not learning to adjust while in AAA

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

9 minutes ago, Moncada said:

If Eloy doesn't come up now he loses the experience vs big league pitching and an entire off season to analyze, improve, and learn from those at bats. He would not get that chance until next off season which is a year from now, hence a year behind.  

I honestly see the Sox continuing winning and it's bc of the starting pitching. So it would be better if Eloy was up and learning instead of getting bored and not learning to adjust while in AAA

So you're telling me that he cannot learn, improve and analyze from when he's called up in April during the season and can only do it in the off season ? That's not realistic at all .Players constantly adjust during the season. Pitchers adjust to them and they adjust back.What's the sense of having a hitting coach during the season if players can only adjust, improve and analyze in the off season ? What's the sense of watching film on the pitchers he will be facing during the season ? What's the sense of going to hitters meetings and discussing how to approach certain pitchers ?

While you think the Sox will keep winning this year because of the pitching. I think there's a much better chance that Eloy end up next year as the best hitter on the Sox and missing 2 months of at bats will not hurt him in the slightest.

[credezcrew24]

On 8/25/2018 at 9:24 PM, Jack Parkman said:

I approve of this thread. As long as: a) the Sox finish top 10 this year in the draft and don't have to worry about losing their 1st rounder for signing a big fish free agent and b) Moncada, Anderson and the SP are fueling the wins, I couldn't care less if they're drafting 3rd, 6th or 9th.

A team's highest 1st round pick is protected now. It's not just top 10 anymore

[oldsox]

This issue of service time was brought to a head with the Kris Bryant episode.  They chose to keep him down a couple extra weeks, got a shitload of criticism, then brought him up and a year later gave him his extension.  Just bring Eloy up, play him, get us all excited, then extend him in a couple of years if he hits.  Before Bryant, it wasn't a big national issue, IIRC.

[southsider2k5]

The rebuild is progressing as should be expected.  We are auditioning guys at the major league level while we wait for the most talented guys to get here.  Some are struggling to adjust, but this winning streak and hot period is largely because we are seeing progress from guys who will probably be around for the middle and longer terms.  This isn't Jose Abreu and Avi Garcia carrying the team.  Abreu is out and Avi is slumping.

The good news is that this winning streak is because Adam Engel has had a very good last month.  In the last four weeks his OPS is over .800.  Omar Narvaez has been one of the most productive hitting catchers around baseball for nearly 3 months now.  Tim Anderson is over .800 OPS for the last four weeks and is fielding like we knew he could.    Daniel Palka has come out of no where and given the Sox a + bat.  Nicky Delmonico has started to hit again (.941 OPS for the last two weeks).  Yolmer has been on base in 15 straight games.

On the other side of the ledger the pitching is even picking it up. Lucas Giolito all of the sudden is looking like the pitcher the Nats drafted out of HS, and not the pitcher they ruined and the Sox have spent two years rebuilding.  Over the last month he is averaging a K an inning, and his walk rate is 3/9IP.  His ERA has fallen by a full run since the beginning of July.  Michael Kopech is as advertised.  Carlos Rodon is looking like the guy who was supposed to be the #1 pick.  Juan Minaya's last month has been very good.   Jace Fry has recovered from an awful July and put up an excellent August.  Even a guy like Gomez  has been usable over the last month.

While people nitpick out individuals, what you want to see is progress by the unit as a whole, and by most of the players.  It isn't going to be a 100% thing all of the time, but this team is moving along.  It is only going to get better as we start to add more guys from the next tiers of the minors.  Hell we have half of the future bullpen waiting in Charlotte.  That alone will make a huge difference going forward.

[southsider2k5]

Also this.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Also this.

 

I recall Benetti saying that during the telecast . That tweet was at 8:56 last night.So I wonder who didn't give credit to the other. Or maybe they both got that from another source.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

The rebuild is progressing as should be expected.  We are auditioning guys at the major league level while we wait for the most talented guys to get here.  Some are struggling to adjust, but this winning streak and hot period is largely because we are seeing progress from guys who will probably be around for the middle and longer terms.  This isn't Jose Abreu and Avi Garcia carrying the team.  Abreu is out and Avi is slumping.

The good news is that this winning streak is because Adam Engel has had a very good last month.  In the last four weeks his OPS is over .800.  Omar Narvaez has been one of the most productive hitting catchers around baseball for nearly 3 months now.  Tim Anderson is over .800 OPS for the last four weeks and is fielding like we knew he could.    Daniel Palka has come out of no where and given the Sox a + bat.  Nicky Delmonico has started to hit again (.941 OPS for the last two weeks).  Yolmer has been on base in 15 straight games.

On the other side of the ledger the pitching is even picking it up. Lucas Giolito all of the sudden is looking like the pitcher the Nats drafted out of HS, and not the pitcher they ruined and the Sox have spent two years rebuilding.  Over the last month he is averaging a K an inning, and his walk rate is 3/9IP.  His ERA has fallen by a full run since the beginning of July.  Michael Kopech is as advertised.  Carlos Rodon is looking like the guy who was supposed to be the #1 pick.  Juan Minaya's last month has been very good.   Jace Fry has recovered from an awful July and put up an excellent August.  Even a guy like Gomez  has been usable over the last month.

While people nitpick out individuals, what you want to see is progress by the unit as a whole, and by most of the players.  It isn't going to be a 100% thing all of the time, but this team is moving along.  It is only going to get better as we start to add more guys from the next tiers of the minors.  Hell we have half of the future bullpen waiting in Charlotte.  That alone will make a huge difference going forward.

Things are certainly looking up and have been for a couple weeks now. Even Dick Allen is getting excited.

Edited August 28, 2018 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[steveno89]

1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Things are certainly looking up and have been for a couple weeks now. Even @Dick Allen is getting excited.

I don't know how much evidence exists that a strong finish to the season necessarily carries over to the next. Obviously seeing younger players do well is encouraging though. 

As for signing a premium free agent whale like Machado or Harper, I think we all need to temper expectations. 2019 is likely to be another rebuilding year as we begin to push prospects up the system and transition the first wave to the mlb level. I would expect veteran bridge type deals, with the potential to be opportunistic in free agency if the time comes. After 2019, ideally we are ready to be very aggressive in free agency to contend in 2020 onward. 

[Kyyle23]

3 hours ago, oldsox said:

This issue of service time was brought to a head with the Kris Bryant episode.  They chose to keep him down a couple extra weeks, got a shitload of criticism, then brought him up and a year later gave him his extension.  Just bring Eloy up, play him, get us all excited, then extend him in a couple of years if he hits.  Before Bryant, it wasn't a big national issue, IIRC.

Bryant definitely made it a big issue, his agents were about to file a grievance.  It was definitely national talk, Bryant was killing it in the minors and everyone knew it.  Hell, he had a billboard up for adidas before he came up, basically calling the cubs out

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/kris-bryant-adidas-billboard-looms-over-wrigley-field/