Hahn confirmed: No Eloy in '18

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

Yes. 

While it is a good business decision to do this, it completely ignores the human element. Eloy deserves a promotion, no question. Given my incredibly pro-worker stance in real life, under no way can I condone this. This is the real life equivalent of your boss giving you more responsibility at work and no change in job title or pay. How would you like it if your boss treated you this way? This is the type of thinking that leads companies to cut corners on labor, squeeze every last dollar out of everything. I wish the remainder US labor force had as strong of a union as the MLB players do. It is something to be applauded, not vilified. America's middle and lower classes should strive to have a union as strong as the MLBPA negotiating on their behalf. If the Sox get screwed in any way if they file the grievance, while I'll hate it as a fan, I'll love it in every other way. 

Jack, you know I’ve got nothing but respect for you, but baseball is a business.  If you want to blame anyone for this situation, blame the veteran players that agreed to a CBA that allows these type of loopholes.  They put their own short-term interests over those of the future members of their union.  Eloy no doubt deserves a promotion, but the Sox have to think big picture here and that’s keeping him down until mid April of next year.  If he feels so victimized by this, he should fight hard for future players’ rights during the next CBA negotiation.  Unfortunately if history has taught us anything, he & others will only care about their pockets and the future Eloy Jimenez’s will be the ones to pay the price.

[Jake]

6 minutes ago, Quinarvy said:

According to White Sox Dave, they offered him a contract. He had an opportunity at guaranteed money to come up now. There is no guarantee that Eloy would mash in the majors, so unless it were peanuts orEloy is MVP out the gate he'd likely be well compensated.

The Cubs did it with their ROY-MVP and he seems happy. If the Sox are winning and close to the World Series in three years,  Rodon and Eloy are probably gonna be signing fat contracts from the Sox.

The contract rules that govern MLB mean there is no requirement for a minor leaguer to negotiate a special deal in order to come up to the majors. If the White Sox or anybody else wants to have a player on a different type of contract, they should either advocate for a new system in the next collective bargaining negotiations or make a better offer to their minor leaguer. The rules make young players take a very small salary and be locked out of market rate salary for most of their careers in order to avoid disincentives to calling them up. The Sox and a number of others just aren't satisfied with all these things and want to steal even more money from their employees.

[Jack Parkman]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Jack, you know I’ve got nothing but respect for you, but baseball is a business.  If you want to blame anyone for this situation, blame the veteran players that agreed to a CBA that allows these type of loopholes.  They put their own short-term interests over those of the future members of their union.  Eloy no doubt deserves a promotion, but the Sox have to think big picture here and that’s keeping him down until mid April of next year.  If he feels so victimized by this, he should fight hard for future players’ rights during the next CBA negotiation.  Unfortunately if history has taught us anything, he & others will only care about their pockets and the future Eloy Jimenez’s will be the ones to pay the price.

The thing is, I don't know what objective measures they can use to prove a player is ready to be called up. It is completely subjective in so many ways. Eloy should fight for this on future players behalf. If I was him you know damn well I would. The CEO of your company is running a business as well. Does that give that person an excuse to squeeze every last dollar out of their employees? Honest question. If it does, enjoy your 70 hour work week at $5/hr with no overtime, vacation or benefits. You should do it and like it, and any dissent is being ungrateful. (I don't mean this with any malice toward you, just trying to prove a point)

Edited September 3, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[The Sir]

22 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

It’s the right call at this point.  I’m not sure why people feel bad for Eloy when he will still make millions upon millions over the course of his career.  A six week delay to his major league debut doesn’t change that.

Because he’s earned the right to start earning those millions now, and Hahn is depriving him of that.

I can see a parallel in my own life. I’m a high school teacher, but I have a master’s degree in educational administration from a highly regarded program in addition to military leadership experience. My school’s leaders told me they want to keep me in the classroom because I’m too valuable there. I was so disgruntled by that decision that I chose to go on another deployment instead. As far as I’m concerned, that employer is dead to me. I will spare nothing while deployed to ensure that I never return to that place in any fashion.

I’m at that point over a few thousand dollars a year. How do you think Eloy feels about a few thousand a day?

Edit: It was implied, but I’m trying to become an assistant principal instead of remaining as a teacher (in case it wasn’t obvious).

Edited September 3, 2018 by The Sir

[Jake]

1 minute ago, The Sir said:

Because he’s earned the right to start earning those millions now, and Hahn is depriving him of that.

I can see a parallel in my own life. I’m a high school teacher, but I have a master’s degree in educational administration from a highly regarded program in addition to military leadership experience. My school’s leaders told me they want to keep me in the classroom because I’m too valuable there. I was so disgruntled by that decision that I chose to go on another deployment instead. As far as I’m concerned, that employer is dead to me. I will spare nothing while deployed to ensure that I never return to that place in any fashion.

I’m at that point over a few thousand dollars a year. How do you think Eloy feels about a few thousand a day?

Yeah and just imagine if all your other potential employers agreed that they wouldn't hire you if you wanted to back out of your current gig.

[Soxsi75]

Just heard Farmer say on the White Sox broadcast today that they don't want to promote Jimenez because they don't want him to have to play at, and be promoted to, 3 levels in one season. What kind of bull$%&^ is that?? They have no problem doing that with Jose Ruiz. I heard they're bringing him up, and that's his 3rd level this year. We all know the REAL reason he's not being brought up. And it actually is a pretty crummy reason. Don't think it's the worlds greatest idea to alienate your most prized young player this player this way. 

[daggins]

If I was the Sox, i'd try to maximize my chances in 2019 and 2020, because there's almost certainly going to be a work stoppage in 2021. I feel like Eloy being acclimated to the MLB is a big part of that.

[Jack Parkman]

7 minutes ago, The Sir said:

Because he’s earned the right to start earning those millions now, and Hahn is depriving him of that.

I can see a parallel in my own life. I’m a high school teacher, but I have a master’s degree in educational administration from a highly regarded program in addition to military leadership experience. My school’s leaders told me they want to keep me in the classroom because I’m too valuable there. I was so disgruntled by that decision that I chose to go on another deployment instead. As far as I’m concerned, that employer is dead to me. I will spare nothing while deployed to ensure that I never return to that place in any fashion.

I’m at that point over a few thousand dollars a year. How do you think Eloy feels about a few thousand a day?

Edit: It was implied, but I’m trying to become an assistant principal instead of remaining as a teacher (in case it wasn’t obvious).

Well done Sir, Thanks for proving my point. This type of wage suppression is happening to everyone all over the country, this would be a good time to make a gripe about it. How ironic this is announced on Labor Day. 

[Baker]

Eloy’s camp is giving bad advice. Will they pay him $60M if he blows out his Achilles next at bat. Any 21 yr old should take guaranteed money. He’ll have another crack at it when he’s 28. 

[The Sir]

15 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Jack, you know I’ve got nothing but respect for you, but baseball is a business.  If you want to blame anyone for this situation, blame the veteran players that agreed to a CBA that allows these type of loopholes.  They put their own short-term interests over those of the future members of their union.  Eloy no doubt deserves a promotion, but the Sox have to think big picture here and that’s keeping him down until mid April of next year.  If he feels so victimized by this, he should fight hard for future players’ rights during the next CBA negotiation.  Unfortunately if history has taught us anything, he & others will only care about their pockets and the future Eloy Jimenez’s will be the ones to pay the price.

Yes, baseball is a business. Part of being a successful business is retention. If I treat my employees like they mean something, and like their efforts have value, and like they will advance in their careers with hard work and good attitude, I will crush it on retention. It’s vital.

So I don’t get why the White Sox are acting like the only way Eloy is here in 2025 is if he doesn’t debut until mid-April of next year. We can’t build that relationship? We can’t show him that we are an awesome organization and a big, happy family? We suck THAT much?

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, The Sir said:

Yes, baseball is a business. Part of being a successful business is retention. If I treat my employees like they mean something, and like their efforts have value, and like they will advance in their careers with hard work and good attitude, I will crush it on retention. It’s vital.

So I don’t get why the White Sox are acting like the only way Eloy is here in 2025 is if he doesn’t debut until mid-April of next year. We can’t build that relationship? We can’t show him that we are an awesome organization and a big, happy family? We suck THAT much?

To me, this signals that they're going to not be a player in FA. Hahn is lying through his teeth insisting that they'll spend. 

[flavum]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

To me, this signals that they're going to not be a player in FA. Hahn is lying through his teeth insisting that they'll spend. 

Eloy will be rookie of the year, then Arenado signs in 15 months.

[Leonard Zelig]

What did Hahn say about FA?

[Jack Parkman]

Just now, flavum said:

Eloy will be rookie of the year, then Arenado signs in 15 months.

If they were going to spend, Eloy should have been in Chicago on 8/10 or so. He should be here learning how to win with these guys while they're on a hot streak. Not to mention, Eloy coming up and showing he's the real deal would be a huge recruiting tool for Machado or Harper, should they choose to go down that route this offseason. 

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, Leonard Zelig said:

What did Hahn say about FA?

Hahn has said that when the time is right the money will be there. I think he's telling a white lie. They'll only spend on mid-tier guys. Forget about top-tier players. It has been the Sox MO since the turn of the century. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Sarava]

4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Hahn has said that when the time is right the money will be there. I think he's telling a white lie. They'll only spend on mid-tier guys. Forget about top-tier players. It has been the Sox MO since the turn of the century. 

They have broken many of those molds in the last year or two. And going just before the turn of the century,. they did break the bank for Albert Belle. I think they'll be willing to spend. But the player has to want to come here too.

[Leonard Zelig]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Hahn has said that when the time is right the money will be there. I think he's telling a white lie. They'll only spend on mid-tier guys. Forget about top-tier players. It has been the Sox MO since the turn of the century. 

Which top tier contracts in the last 18 years do you wish the Sox would have topped?

[Jack Parkman]

6 minutes ago, Leonard Zelig said:

Which top tier contracts in the last 18 years do you wish the Sox would have topped?

Machado and Harper are special, in the same way that A-Rod and Manny Ramirez were in 2000. That is all. If fans would accept that a player's FA contract and being paid huge money in their decline years is  repayment for their cheap years, and not get on the player's ass and be ok with the player getting his, I'd be fine with signing top-tier FA contracts. The idiocy is ridiculous. That attitude is why private employees don't have guaranteed pensions. The billionaire class has brainwashed people into doing what is in their best interest, instead of the worker's best interest. /End rant. This is how the system works. If you don't want it that way, then be prepared for Arbitration after year 1 of team control. I never begrudge a player for getting his. I don't hate Scott Boras. I love him. He gets the job done for the great majority of his clients. If I were a top MLB prospect or player, he'd be my agent. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[cornball]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

Yes. 

While it is a good business decision to do this, it completely ignores the human element. Eloy deserves a promotion, no question. Given my incredibly pro-worker stance in real life, under no way can I condone this. This is the real life equivalent of your boss giving you more responsibility at work and no change in job title or pay. How would you like it if your boss treated you this way? This is the type of thinking that leads companies to cut corners and squeeze every last dollar out of labor. I wish the remainder of the US labor force had as strong of a union as the MLB players do. It is something to be applauded, not vilified. America's middle and lower classes should strive to have a union as strong as the MLBPA negotiating on their behalf. If the Sox get screwed in any way if they file the grievance, while I'll hate it as a fan, I'll love it in every other way. The Sox deserve anything they have coming to them on this one. 

Nobody should be siding with ownership on this one unless they're willing to work at their current job for 60 hrs a week for $5/hr with no overtime or vacation.  

The problem with this logic is: there are minimum wage laws, which are over $5 an hour and overtime laws requiring-time and a half -over 40 hours. The Sox are following the rules collectively bargained by the union to their benefit at this time. To compare MLB players  to hourly workers is a stretch. 

[southsider2k5]

 

[Jack Parkman]

48 minutes ago, cornball said:

The problem with this logic is: there are minimum wage laws, which are over $5 an hour and overtime laws requiring-time and a half -over 40 hours. The Sox are following the rules collectively bargained by the union to their benefit at this time. To compare MLB players  to hourly workers is a stretch. 

Do you know why those laws are in place? Because Unions lobbied Congress on behalf of their workers. I understand the amount of money that pro athletes get in general is much greater than anything that most could hope to earn in their lifetime, but they got paid a comparable wage to an awesome job for the average person until they got a union and got their fair share. In the 60s players had to work another job to make a living during the offseason. It is actually no different than anyone else. They fought for their rights as workers and kept it up. The rest of the population got swindled by billionaires' propaganda. Don't like it? Go organize! If the billionaires could get away with repealing those laws they would do it in an instant. 

The point I was making was that if it wasn't for collective bargaining, our bosses would own us. It was virtual slavery. Those who were rich, stayed rich for generations and those who were poor, stayed poor. The American Dream was only possible because of the people who died and fought for labor rights. Today, on Labor Day, I salute them. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I would like to add that I respect each and every argument made on both side of this debate. Many of us here know that both sides are right and cannot take a position one way or the other. It is what it is and wish Eloy a great career that leads to an eventual World Series win.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

That's surprising. Makes we wonder if the Sox or Eloy's camp asked him not to. Both sides have a lot at stake should he get injured playing winter ball .

[ptatc]

3 hours ago, Leonard Zelig said:

Just make sure to come and bump it and say you were wrong if he extends.

Only if he extends past FA years. 

[southsider2k5]

41 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

That's surprising. Makes we wonder if the Sox or Eloy's camp asked him not to. Both sides have a lot at stake should he get injured playing winter ball .

For a hitter? Eh. I am not too worried about it.