Kopech has a torn UCL, TJS recommended

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

They will do it again because it's the path that makes the most sense. You build upon the number of innings the pitcher pitched the previous year.

I don't disagree, but I think they'll be extra careful with Cease, especially with what happened to Kopech. See below for my explanation. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Balta1701]

Just now, ptatc said:

They will do it again because it's the path that makes the most sense. You build upon the number of innings the pitcher pitched the previous year.

THey might be a little more conservative with Cease, but not because of this - his innings total was less this year than Kopech's was last year, so they may want to stop him on September 1 next year to avoid overloading him.

[Jack Parkman]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

THey might be a little more conservative with Cease, but not because of this - his innings total was less this year than Kopech's was last year, so they may want to stop him on September 1 next year to avoid overloading him.

This x 1 billion

[ptatc]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

I only counted the players who were actual prospects. The other players were minor league filler. Kind of a big difference there. 

Oh, so the actual prospects were determined by you after the fact. Basabe was hitting 258 in A ball when they acquired him. By your philosophy of batting average and contact, he shoudn't have been considered an actual prospect, so don't count him on your list.

Hind sight is 20/20.

[SoxAce]

4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I only counted the players who were actual prospects. The other players were minor league filler. Kind of a big difference there. 

Eh... I hated the 4th piece in Diaz as I stated that even back then, but he was an interesting reliever prospect at the time.

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

THey might be a little more conservative with Cease, but not because of this - his innings total was less this year than Kopech's was last year, so they may want to stop him on September 1 next year to avoid overloading him.

this is true. He went 124 innings this year. I would guess they will push to around 170 next year. If his performance is mediocre, they may keep him down for the last part of the season. If he is pitching well, I would think they would bring him up. Personally, I don't have as much confidence in him maintaining his performance in AAA so i could see them keeping him down.

[ptatc]

9 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I don't disagree, but I think they'll be extra careful with Cease, especially with what happened to Kopech. See below for my explanation. 

I don't think what happened to Kopech will change the way they handle Cease at all. They handled him the way they should have. The difference in the situations are that Cease did throw fewer innings this year than Kopech did last year so his innings limit may not dictate the call up in september.

[Lip Man 1]

42 minutes ago, Real said:

How long until we see guys like Dunning. Hansen, and Cease?  been really impressed with them

A while. (Assuming Dunning and Hansen are actually healthy)

[Jack Parkman]

30 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I don't think what happened to Kopech will change the way they handle Cease at all. They handled him the way they should have. The difference in the situations are that Cease did throw fewer innings this year than Kopech did last year so his innings limit may not dictate the call up in september.

What I meant is that because they pushed Kopech hard the last two seasons with regard to innings, and he ended up blowing his elbow, they aren't going to push Cease that hard. Kopech had only thrown ~100 minor league innings before 2017. He only threw 50 in 2016. He threw 134 in 2017. They probably pushed him too quickly. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[southsideirish71]

1 hour ago, oldsox said:

Remember maybe 6 months ago someone posted an article and video of Kopech taking a running start and throwing into a screen as hard as he could and getting it up to 110 mph?  As soon as I saw that, I thought accident waiting to happen.

Trevor Bauer does the same stuff in the offseason.  

[ptatc]

9 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

What I meant is that because they pushed Kopech hard the last two seasons with regard to innings, and he ended up blowing his elbow, they aren't going to push Cease that hard. Kopech had only thrown 75 minor league innings before 2017. 

I'm not sure that the innings increase really caused the elbow issue. Most pitchers can get up to 100 without issues from the start so I don't think the 75 innings earlier has much on effect. It's the 150-180-200 innings is where they need to be careful.  They followed a good, typical plan with the progress of kopech. 

As I've said for years here, i think it's related to him throwing too close to his max velocity too often. This is why you see so many pitchers in today's game having UCL replacement so much more often than in the past. This generation is too focused on velocity and not learning how to pitch. It's much easier to go out there and throw as hard as you can for 5 innings than it is to dial it down and locate  pitches for 7-8 innings. Even Chris sale. He is having his best year throwing as hard as he can and not "pitching to contact" and he is on the DL for the longest period of time in his career.

Edited September 8, 2018 by ptatc

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Blaming this on Rick Hahn and the front office, for now at least, is still inappropriate. Literally no one on this site dislikes Rick Hahn more than me

Im going to have to disagree with you on this. 

For one, I fucking hate the ENTIRE front office of this team with the FIRE of 1,000 suns. I hate them, because these Forest Fucking Gumps in the front office keep fucking up.

Secondly, a fan could give them a mulligan for making "one" poor judgement in terms of bringing up a prospect too early. Say, Carson Fulmer, for example. A patient man could forgive them for screwing up a second call up, such as bringing up Moncada WAY too early. But, when "bad luck" keeps happening with callups, it's a trend. This front office could screw up a cup of coffee.

There is/was a cost-benefit risk to stupidly bringing up Kopech for a few measly starts vs. AAAA comp, while squandering service time. A blind, drunk monkey could have seen that there is/was miniscule potential reward to squandering service time, while there is/was a clear and present risk to the organization by squandering Kopech's (or Moncada's) potential.

In other words, just fire everyone in the FO, and find people who aren't imbeciles to get us out of this ongoing nightmare. 

[southsider2k5]

The idea of leaving Kopech down in AAA to play the service time game is absurd.  They already are going struggle to justify Eloy, and he only had 2 months in AAA. How are you going to justify send Kopech to AAA for parts of 3 seasons with a straight face? 

[ron883]

They should have been having him do more towel drills and football drills. Herm needs to get it ****ing together

Edited September 8, 2018 by Hot FiRe

[thxfrthmmrs]

7 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Remember this is the same staff that tried to turn Chris Sale into a "pitch to contact" guy.  This staff is garbage.  Yea, this event is a HUGE DATA POINT THAT THEY SUCK.

SHUT THE FUCK UP DUDE. Your posts are garbage. UCL tears do not happen in one game. Coop did not cause an UCL tear on him by pitching him 14 innings.

But let’s pretend Coop didn’t do his job because Hansen and Dunning is also hurt in the minors right? Let’s also ignore the fact that everyone was down on Rodon this time last year but he has recovered better than any of us cuz of thought.

Typical garbage posts pretending sky is falling in time of adversity trying to find someone to blame. REAL MATURE.

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by thxfrthmmrs

[thxfrthmmrs]

2 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

I only counted the players who were actual prospects. The other players were minor league filler. Kind of a big difference there. 

Basabe is a prospect by any definition (close to top 100 in several lists). Just stop already.

[tray]

Kopech is a young man who has had previous issues (a 50 game suspension for PEDs, breaking his hand in a fist fight with a teammate) but looked like he was cleaning it up when he came to the White Sox.   We, as Sox fans love the guy, but some question why he tried to pitch over arm soreness.  Perhaps he didn't  anyone, but the again, even  Benetti and Chuch Garfein noticed that Kopech was uncomfortable during pre-game warm-ups.  Then there was the indication of reduced velocity that should have at least caused a mound visit.  Well it is all water over the bridge now.

Just to make myself feel better I am going to pretend that when we had Sale, he blew his arm up and we could not get a thing for him in  trade.   Given that hypothetical, I can imagine that things would be about as bad as they seem right now.

[ron883]

@greg775 where are you? We need you more than ever

Edited September 8, 2018 by Hot FiRe

[BlackSox13]

So it's the fault of the front office because Kopech didn't say anything about the discomfort in his elbow and tried to pitch through it? Lol, okay.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Hot FiRe said:

They should have been having him do more towel drills and football drills. Herm needs to get it ****ing together

The towel drills and football drills are awful for the mechanics. 

[ptatc]

40 minutes ago, tray said:

Kopech is a young man who has had previous issues (a 50 game suspension for PEDs, breaking his hand in a fist fight with a teammate) but looked like he was cleaning it up when he came to the White Sox.   We, as Sox fans love the guy, but some question why he tried to pitch over arm soreness.  Perhaps he didn't  anyone, but the again, even  Benetti and Chuch Garfein noticed that Kopech was uncomfortable during pre-game warm-ups.  Then there was the indication of reduced velocity that should have at least caused a mound visit.  Well it is all water over the bridge now.

Just to make myself feel better I am going to pretend that when we had Sale, he blew his arm up and we could not get a thing for him in  trade.   Given that hypothetical, I can imagine that things would be about as bad as they seem right now.

At this time of the year most pitchers are pitching through soreness and discomfort, especially those nearing thier previous high in innings pitched.  Sale was always mad at the Sox staff for being too cautious.

[Jake]

If Kopech suffering an injury that has a high repair rate is what foils the rebuild, it was always destined to fail.

[pcq]

9 hours ago, ptatc said:

I'm not sure that the innings increase really caused the elbow issue. Most pitchers can get up to 100 without issues from the start so I don't think the 75 innings earlier has much on effect. It's the 150-180-200 innings is where they need to be careful.  They followed a good, typical plan with the progress of kopech. 

As I've said for years here, i think it's related to him throwing too close to his max velocity too often. This is why you see so many pitchers in today's game having UCL replacement so much more often than in the past. This generation is too focused on velocity and not learning how to pitch. It's much easier to go out there and throw as hard as you can for 5 innings than it is to dial it down and locate  pitches for 7-8 innings. Even Chris sale. He is having his best year throwing as hard as he can and not "pitching to contact" and he is on the DL for the longest period of time in his career.

Which is what people here have slammed Coop for. 

[ptatc]

15 minutes ago, pcq said:

Which is what people here have slammed Coop for. 

I have consistently disagreed with posters on this. Posters do have legitimate issues though. It does take more time to learn to pitch and the results aren't as consistent as throwing hard and striking people out because anytime a ball is in play it can result in a hit. However, in my opinion  the risk/reward is worth it due to the higher injury rate we are seeing. 

 

[The Sir]

Going to be very quick because I’m home on leave for the weekend, but I really don’t share the pessimism for 2019. Next year was more about Moncada/Anderson/Rodon/Giolito/ Lopez making progress. Kopech was a hell of a nice topper, but if those other guys didn’t progress as expected, it was going to be meaningless. Let’s sign a few FAs, call up Eloy two weeks in, and win 86 games and shoot for the second WC. Be ready to dominate in 2020 when Kopech returns and Cease, Madrigal and others join us. Keep your heads up.