Kopech has a torn UCL, TJS recommended

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Seems a pretty radical assumption to absolve the Sox of all blame and just blame it on TINSTAAPP.

I don't think teams normally do MRIs or medical reviews of players before calling them up.

[chitownsportsfan]

Just now, gusguyman said:

So radical that there is even a a well known acronym for cases like these

Hey, I'm not the one writing the checks.  But if I was I'd want to ask how nobody on my team said jack shit when he's out there in warm ups grimacing at 93-94mph.  Just blame fate.

Wonder how Luol Deng feels about JR's medical teams.

[aryzner]

You can't predict injuries. That's all I can say about this.

To all you negative folks, try some positive thinking. Guys have TJ all the time and come back from it. As a current example, look at Jacob deGrom. He had TJ in 2011 and is now a Cy Young candidate. I'm hoping for the same type of recovery from Kopech.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, timbo8 said:

my question to kopech why didn't tell hiss coaches that feels sore espically in aaa

Because if you know baseball ,pitchers are always sore.He said he didn't even classify it as pain. It's why every pitcher ices his arm after every start.

[chitownsportsfan]

Just now, soxfan2014 said:

I don't think teams normally do MRIs or medical reviews of players before calling them up.

ptatc can say for sure but this is something a would think a physical examination and strength test would catch, and then you'd do imagining. 

[gusguyman]

Just now, chitownsportsfan said:

Hey, I'm not the one writing the checks.  But if I was I'd want to ask how nobody on my team said jack shit when he's out there in warm ups grimacing at 93-94mph.  Just blame fate.

Wonder how Luol Deng feels about JR's medical teams.

That isn't how these types of injuries work. Even if they pull him from that game, the damage was done. The only thing that game ruined was his 2018 ERA

[Lip Man 1]

11 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I feel bad likening the arrival of Kopech to the " The Light." Then the weather, when he pitched ,cosmically told me that wasn't the case at all. The universe has just told us it's going to be cloudy for a while.

It's been cloudy for over a decade now with no end in sight apparently.

[chitownsportsfan]

1 minute ago, Tony said:

Or...you don’t have to blame anyone because we all don’t work like five year olds, and realize UCL injuries are becoming increasingly common, and this would have happened no matter the level Kopech was pitching in.

FIRE EBERYONE!!!1111

This staff's body of work sucks donkey dick.  The data points keep coming in and as a bayesian I value the more recent data points exponetially more than the ones from 5-10 years ago.  Cooper is living on borrowed time.  So is this entire FO.  Blow it up.  Hahn has failed.  The rebuild is a disaster right now.  You've pissed off Eloy, you've blown out Kopech, you've not developed anybody to any degree of success this year and meanwhile you've got a softball coach as the manager.

[chitownsportsfan]

3 minutes ago, gusguyman said:

That isn't how these types of injuries work. Even if they pull him from that game, the damage was done. The only thing that game ruined was his 2018 ERA

David Price avoided UCL surgery because the Red Sox did a great job catching it early and letting him heal.  It has happened before.  TINSTAAPP is a nice little acronym but if it's 100% true than medical staffs and trainers have zero impact on pitchers health and should all be let go.  

Nobody believes that.

Edited September 7, 2018 by chitownsportsfan

[chitownsportsfan]

1 minute ago, Tony said:

Keep drinking. Maybe it will help. 

I've put down the Sox koolaid man.  This is a dumpster fire scenario.  

Here I'm dead sober and at work for another couple hours so let me lay some things out:

1) The two guys you got in the Eaton trade have ERAs of 4.37 and 5.85, they have FIPS, if you like that, of 4.97 and 5.45.  They have combined for 1.1 fWAR

2) The two main pieces of the Sale trade -- one is striking out 33% of the time.  He has been below replacement since June.  The other just blew out his UCL.  The third piece is still 2-3 years away, if he ever makes it to MLB.

3) Your aging vets that you didn't trade are now dead weight on your roster and one is a non tender candidate.  Furthermore, you've got 2-3 younger guys that can play 1B that will be edged out likely because you feel "loyalty" towards him and won't just let him go or trade him this offseason for a bag of balls.

4) Your handpicked manager, now your 2nd in a row (Hahn's watch) is routinely mocked for being one of the worst strategic managers in all of MLB.  This is an almost universal opinion among Soxtalk regulars.  We all see it on a nightly basis.  

5) Your first round draft pick tore his Achilles twice.  Again, who is monitoring his rehab?  This is not some random guy that is likely to be in the Ind leagues in 5 years but your 1st round draft pick at position you currently have ZERO other options at in the minors.

6) You made a PR disaster of your own doing by saying one of the dumbest things I've ever heard from a CEO, sports or otherwise by saying your top prospect, who had a 210 wRC+ at the time in AAA, "needed to check more boxes" before coming up.  Dude continues to be on fire and then you say "you're not developing a DH" and yadda yadda yadda.  Said prospect is now considering a grievance and is from all indications pretty pissed.  

__________________________________________________________________

So yea, I will keep drinking, but not the Sox koolaid.  Anybody that has read my posts the last decade + here knows I am usually a pretty optimistic fan by default.  But I'm done.  I can't fake it anymore.  I've had pretty serious doubts about the rebuild all year long but was able to see a light perhaps at the end of the tunnel.  That light is gone.  The Sox just lost 5-10 WAR off their club until probably 2021.  The rebuild has been set back at least a year.  

I can't do a 5-6 year rebuild.  I don't think anybody can, well, except anybody working for JR.  The checks still cash regardless.  They ain't paying me tho.

Edited September 7, 2018 by chitownsportsfan

[pcq]

Is it possible too many pitchers are throwing too hard?  Sounds simplistic but how is it we have so many hard throwers in recent years. Something has to give. This reminds me of Strasburg not long after his debut. 

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

David Price avoided UCL surgery because the Red Sox did a great job catching it early and letting him heal.  It has happened before.  TINSTAAPP is a nice little acronym but if it's 100% true than medical staffs and trainers have zero impact on pitchers health and should all be let go.  

Nobody believes that.

He also avoided it because his UCL wasn’t torn. He had a triceps injury.

[StrangeSox]

Womp womp

[TaylorStSox]

I kind of expect this with all power pitchers, so it's good that's happening now, before we're close to contending. 

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, Tony said:

It certainly seems like these guys are throwing harder and getting stronger, but the ligaments just aren’t built for it. I’m a few credits shy of a medical degree, but something seems off.

There are definitely more guys throwing 95 plus than years ago. But the max doesn’t appear to move much if at all.

they say throwing a baseball isn’t a natural movement, so it figures at max or close to max effort each time you throw, humans would have a limited amount of bullets before something goes haywire.

[SonofaRoache]

We need to find a real number two starter at this point. Proceed on next year and hopefully we will have much better luck and player improvement in 2020. 

[TaylorStSox]

55 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Good lord people.  I get this really really sucks and all, but these hot takes would embarrass Cubs fans. I mean even Donald Trump would think twice before hitting reply on a few of these.

Only 2 posters are freaking out and those guys freak out about pretty much everything. 

[TaylorStSox]

17 minutes ago, flavum said:

If you want to blame anything, go right to youth baseball and how kids are trained and programmed to only throw hard- because that’s the only way they’re getting noticed. The whole system sucks right now. 

The fascination with velocity and K's will even out. Baseball has a way of evening itself out. The game hasn't changed all that much with the exception of spikes during certain eras. 

Edited September 7, 2018 by TaylorStSox

[Jose Abreu]

14 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

David Price avoided UCL surgery because the Red Sox did a great job catching it early and letting him heal.  It has happened before.  TINSTAAPP is a nice little acronym but if it's 100% true than medical staffs and trainers have zero impact on pitchers health and should all be let go.  

Nobody believes that.

Well now you're on to something... medical staffs and trainers indeed have zero impact on pitchers' health when it comes to UCL tears. An unrelenting need to "blame" this on somebody for the sake of confirmation bias doesn't make any sense 

[chitownsportsfan]

11 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

He also avoided it because his UCL wasn’t torn. He had a triceps injury.

That's not at all what happened.

Unlike with Kopech, the Red Sox ID's his pain early and had the top elbow docs in the country to examine him ASAP.  Contrast that to the scenario here where Kopech is throwing 93 in warmups, grimacing in pain, and nobody is wiser.  Staff is out to lunch, asleep at the wheel and absolutely clueless.

[pcq]

Not a lot of progress with the rebuild. Our keystone combo is trending up. I suppose they could sign a vet SP to steady the rotation. Not good to rush the other young arms. 

[TaylorStSox]

The Sox also might want to tell their stud pitching prospects that this is a bad idea. It's most likely not related, but if there's one thing about powerlifters, it's that they're always injured. 

 

[caulfield12]

If they want to sell any tickets next year, they’re going to need to add a couple of significant pieces via free agency.  If it’s James Shields again, or Miguel Gonzalez, good luck getting anyone to tune in.  Everything is pretty much riding on Eloy Jimenez being a breakout star from Day 1 in April of next year.

Otherwise, the tv ratings will be even worse than Houston’s in 2011-13.  Likely means we won’t get much of a boost from the new tv deal as well.   Just business as usual.

Let’s also not forget that our best pitching prospect in Cease has already had TJ, same with Giolito...pretty sure the list of MLB pitchers who have made more than 50 starts after multiple surgeries can still be counted on one hand.  

Of course, Rodon, Dunning and Hansen are also far from certainties at this point, as well.

 

But like a double-header that goes on too long, having the operation a second time doesn't work out nearly as well, according to new research released Tuesday. When surgeons Robert Keller and Bill Moutzouros of Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit looked at 33 pitchers who had the surgery a second time, they found that only 65.5 percent were able to return to pro ball. The ones who did had shortened careers and threw fewer innings than 33 statistically matched pitchers who hadn't had the surgery. Their performances, as measured by baseball's copious statistics, were about the same.

With one Tommy John surgery, "there's a good chance you're coming back," Keller said in an interview. "You're probably not as good as you were before, but you're near to where you should be.

"When you have a second one, you may not come back, and if you do, you won't pitch as much and you won't pitch as long."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/03/25/two-tommy-john-surgeries-may-be-too-much-of-a-good-thing-for-mlb-pitchers/?utm_term=.91b9bbdfebfc

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

That's not at all what happened.

Unlike with Kopech, the Red Sox ID's his pain early and had the top elbow docs in the country to examine him ASAP.  Contrast that to the scenario here where Kopech is throwing 93 in warmups, grimacing in pain, and nobody is wiser.  Staff is out to lunch, asleep at the wheel and absolutely clueless.

What about the Angels with Ohtani?

At any rate, Sale and Price need to win a World Series for Boston before they can really start crowing.   And that’s exponentially harder than emerging from the NL field of contenders.

[Dick Allen]

7 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

The Sox also might want to tell their stud pitching prospects that this is a bad idea. It's most likely not related, but if there's one thing about powerlifters, it's that they're always injured. 

 

I would think he had this OKd by the Sox. My problem with Kopech is he always seemed to be a guy who wanted to throw 110 when 98-100 in more than enough. I just thought his approach, at least prior to this season was just asking for trouble.