Rebuild= Epic Fail

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

The two main issues are worthwhile discussing since they seem to be impacting the rebuild:

1. Is the same front office that drove the franchise into the ditch it is now in capable of fixing the damage they did?

2. Given the past three seasons worth of injuries at the major and minor league level is there something that may be missing now from a training / conditioning standpoint? If you can't keep the guys you are counting on to anchor the rebuild healthy at all levels (including the major leagues) you have a serious issue.

It is still to early to call the rebuild a success or a failure. The next two years, I think, will help determine that. If at the end of the 2020 season the Sox are still floating around the 60-65 win mark, then ownership (whomever that may be) is going to have to make a decision on the future of the front office and the direction this team needs to go in, in my opinion.

I had hoped for some real improvement in the won/lost column in 2019, not contention, not a winning season but real improvement. I'm afraid now that doesn't seem like a real possibility. 

Where do the Sox rank in this vs the rest of baseball during this time frame. 

[TaylorStSox]

I would have banned Tom Party a long time ago. He's clearly trolling. His whole persona is about incitement. Not my board though. 

[TaylorStSox]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Where do the Sox rank in this vs the rest of baseball during this time frame. 

Jake Burger - freak accident

Luis Robert - hurts hand sliding

Michael Kopech - power pitcher that needs TJS

 

These are clearly about "conditioning." 

[Lip Man 1]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Where do the Sox rank in this vs the rest of baseball during this time frame. 

South: I can tell you from the Sox media guide that last year they were slightly above the major league average in times using the DL and a lot higher than league average in days missed to injury for what that may be worth to you.

The second point means that the injuries they were getting weren't just bruises or ankle twists, they were of a more serious nature.

[iWiN4PreP]

The rebuild has not gone well so far, but 2 or 3 weeks ago it was looking like the rebuild was going extremely well. Seem paradoxical? Perhaps...

 

A week or so after Kopech came up there was news of Giolito 'finding' himself. He was showing fantastic potential. Now, he got bombed the other night with a velocity dip again showcasing his inabilities all year. 

ReyLo has been off/on (mostly off) all year, but again was showing promise during these weeks. I hope the progress continues..

Rodon was aceing everything during this stretch, but the last couple of starts from him now are showing that his lucky peripherals may have been just that... luck.

And everybody knows the story of Kopech and how it went from peak to rock bottom instantly.

 

So, in a matter of a few weeks the rebuild went from looking quite awesome to rather bad. I'm disappointed and sad. I don't even have much more will to post for a few days after this Kopech incident and the SP's going to hell.

[footlongcomiskeydog]

3 hours ago, WBWSF said:

This is certainly a depressing list but it is what it is. There are 2 things that can be done this coming off season. Hahn can make some trades or he can sign some free agents. If you look at Hahns track record most of his trades and free agent signings have turned out bad. This is the 6th year under Hahn as the White Sox GM and the team has yet to have a winning season. Some people who post here keep talking about the White Sox going to the playoffs sometime soon. I'm just hoping the team has a winning season sooner rather than later. To the best of my knowledge Hahn is signed thru the 2019 season. If the 2019 season turns out to be another dreadful year I'm hoping Hahn will be  gone.

Who is there really left to trade though? Abreau and Avi, I suppose, but both those guys should have been traded last offseason if that was the plan. Any return this offseason will be minimal and I honestly think the Sox re-sign Jose. They are going to need someone to play first base in 2020 and beyond. 

Some people are saying to trade Rodon but that seems asinine to me and signals that the Sox are willing to punt away the 2020 and 2021 season. The fact that there is even conversation about trading Rodon is a huge indictment of the progress of the rebuild. I didn't see the Cubs or Houston trading away any of their young core pieces during their rebuilds. 

The Sox are going to have to add some impact FA if they are serious about competing any time soon. This offseason will be very interesting. 

 

 

 

[ron883]

33 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

I would have banned Tom Party a long time ago. He's clearly trolling. His whole persona is about incitement. Not my board though. 

Really strange. It's so obvious too.

[WBWSF]

2 minutes ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

Who is there really left to trade though? Abreau and Avi, I suppose, but both those guys should have been traded last offseason if that was the plan. Any return this offseason will be minimal and I honestly think the Sox re-sign Jose. They are going to need someone to play first base in 2020 and beyond. 

Some people are saying to trade Rodon but that seems asinine to me and signals that the Sox are willing to punt away the 2020 and 2021 season. The fact that there is even conversation about trading Rodon is a huge indictment of the progress of the rebuild. I didn't see the Cubs or Houston trading away any of their young core pieces during their rebuilds. 

The Sox are going to have to add some impact FA if they are serious about competing any time soon. This offseason will be very interesting. 

 

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see Rodon packaged with Abreu or Avi Garcia in a trade for more "prospects".

[southsider2k5]

18 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

South: I can tell you from the Sox media guide that last year they were slightly above the major league average in times using the DL and a lot higher than league average in days missed to injury for what that may be worth to you.

The second point means that the injuries they were getting weren't just bruises or ankle twists, they were of a more serious nature.

This year the White Sox are 25th in DL days.

 

 

[Ducksnort]

13 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

This year the White Sox are 25th in DL days.

 

 

I wonder what they are ranked in terms of minor league dl days...

[reiks12]

44 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

I wouldn't be surprised to see Rodon packaged with Abreu or Avi Garcia in a trade for more "prospects".

Absolutely, something I wouldn't be opposed to.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

The two main issues are worthwhile discussing since they seem to be impacting the rebuild:

1. Is the same front office that drove the franchise into the ditch it is now in capable of fixing the damage they did?

2. Given the past three seasons worth of injuries at the major and minor league level is there something that may be missing now from a training / conditioning standpoint? If you can't keep the guys you are counting on to anchor the rebuild healthy at all levels (including the major leagues) you have a serious issue.

It is still to early to call the rebuild a success or a failure. The next two years, I think, will help determine that. If at the end of the 2020 season the Sox are still floating around the 60-65 win mark, then ownership (whomever that may be) is going to have to make a decision on the future of the front office and the direction this team needs to go in, in my opinion.

I had hoped for some real improvement in the won/lost column in 2019, not contention, not a winning season but real improvement. I'm afraid now that doesn't seem like a real possibility. 

Pretty spot on.

[footlongcomiskeydog]

1 hour ago, TaylorStSox said:

I would have banned Tom Party a long time ago. He's clearly trolling. His whole persona is about incitement. Not my board though. 

Go move to Russia or North Korea. They love banning stuff there too.

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

Go move to Russia or North Korea. They love banning stuff there too.

Posting on a board is for enjoyment and information. It is not a legal nor ethical right.  Those countries have a few more issues than posting on a privately held website.

We are going back to ad absurdum discussions again.

[footlongcomiskeydog]

24 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

Absolutely, something I wouldn't be opposed to.

So you are pretty much okay with punting away the 2020 and 2021 seasons? A trade of Rodon for more prospects is pretty much conceding those seasons.

 

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, ptatc said:

The talent acquired seems to be developing pretty well in the minors. I wouldn't make those conclusions until they make it or bust in the MLB.

 

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

The two main issues are worthwhile discussing since they seem to be impacting the rebuild:

1. Is the same front office that drove the franchise into the ditch it is now in capable of fixing the damage they did?

2. Given the past three seasons worth of injuries at the major and minor league level is there something that may be missing now from a training / conditioning standpoint? If you can't keep the guys you are counting on to anchor the rebuild healthy at all levels (including the major leagues) you have a serious issue.

It is still to early to call the rebuild a success or a failure. The next two years, I think, will help determine that. If at the end of the 2020 season the Sox are still floating around the 60-65 win mark, then ownership (whomever that may be) is going to have to make a decision on the future of the front office and the direction this team needs to go in, in my opinion.

I had hoped for some real improvement in the won/lost column in 2019, not contention, not a winning season but real improvement. I'm afraid now that doesn't seem like a real possibility. 

The past 3 seasons at the major league level, this team was still fairly healthy. Not as healthy as it was the previous 5 years, but nothing compared to an org like the Dodgers, and that stretch including '15 and '16 was about the healthiest franchise we have ever seen. The health of the minor leagues imploded this year at a level we have never seen in this organization before, at a level that if it happens again it will effectively demolish all of the talent we thought we acquired. That could be a sign that RH failed to assess injury risks before trading for guys, that could be a sign that RH's people in the minors really are that bad, or it could be bad luck and a 1 year event that won't repeat next year. If we're having this same conversation in 2020 about how on Earth we are having so many injuries in our prospects, then it will be time to call this a trend.

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

So you are pretty much okay with punting away the 2020 and 2021 seasons? A trade of Rodon for more prospects is pretty much conceding those seasons.

 

After this news? Yes. Before this week, if I was in RH's chair and the right offer came in for Rodon (2 top 50 guys and a 3rd strong piece), I'd have hated to do it but I'd very likely have made the move. At this point? I see no reasonable way Rodon's next 2 years are useful to the White Sox. We're now waiting on Kopech to recover to full strength (2021) and that Winston-Salem team to arrive (2021). Other guys like Collins will arrive before that, but you have to expect some growing pains. We may not get the right offer this year, especially if both Rodon and DeGrom are on the market, it may take Rodon pitching to the break next year to prove he's healthy, but if the right offer comes in you now have to make that move. It will make you better in 2021 and beyond.

[footlongcomiskeydog]

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

After this news? Yes. Before this week, if I was in RH's chair and the right offer came in for Rodon (2 top 50 guys and a 3rd strong piece), I'd have hated to do it but I'd very likely have made the move. At this point? I see no reasonable way Rodon's next 2 years are useful to the White Sox. We're now waiting on Kopech to recover to full strength (2021) and that Winston-Salem team to arrive (2021). Other guys like Collins will arrive before that, but you have to expect some growing pains. We may not get the right offer this year, especially if both Rodon and DeGrom are on the market, it may take Rodon pitching to the break next year to prove he's healthy, but if the right offer comes in you now have to make that move. It will make you better in 2021 and beyond.

No one is going to give up a Chris Sale type package for Carlos Rodon. 

The Sox have Rodon under control for 3 more years after 18. U don't think this team will be competitive at all in the next 3 years?

 

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

No one is going to give up a Chris Sale type package for Carlos Rodon. 

The Sox have Rodon under control for 3 more years after 18. U don't think this team will be competitive at all in the next 3 years?

 

Unless they spend on some stopgaps, not for at least two. It's worth trading Rodon. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[footlongcomiskeydog]

4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Unless they spend on some stopgaps, not for at least two. It's worth trading Rodon. 

Hahn should be shitcanned on the spot if the Sox trade Rodon for "prospects" any time soon. 

The Cubs sure didn't trade away Kyle Hendricks nor did the Astros trade away Dallas Kuechel during their rebuilds. I thought we were following their models? 

[Jack Parkman]

11 minutes ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

Hahn should be shitcanned on the spot if the Sox trade Rodon for "prospects" any time soon. 

The Cubs sure didn't trade away Kyle Hendricks nor did the Astros trade away Dallas Kuechel during their rebuilds. I thought we were following their models? 

Those guys were under team control during the majority of their competitive window. Rodon will be under team control for a maximum of two seasons of a window, with the most likely scenario being one season.  If you keep him, he's basically a one or two year rental. Not worth it. Why is this logic so hard for you people? It would be like keeping Jose Quintana on a an 85-95 loss team where he's probably your best player, and there is slim to no hope of competing during his team control. Not trading Rodon by the start of the 2020 season if they continue to stockpile high draft picks and have no intention of spending,  is a fireable offense, IMO. 

With the information we have now if Rodon is still on this roster by Opening Day 2020 Hahn should be fired. It would be a mismanagement of team assets of epic proportions. Do you like what the Mets are doing with Syndergaard and DeGrom? If you do, you're baseball stupid. 

I believe Hahn should be shitcanned on the spot if he DOESN'T trade Rodon for prospects. Rodon doesn't help the White Sox win anything. He would help another team far more than he would the Sox. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[footlongcomiskeydog]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Those guys were under team control during the majority of their competitive window. Rodon will be under team control for a maximum of two seasons of a window, with the most likely scenario being one season.  If you keep him, he's basically a one or two year rental. Not worth it. Why is this logic so hard for you people? It would be like keeping Jose Quintana on a an 85-95 loss team where he's probably your best player, and there is slim to no hope of competing during his team control. Not trading Rodon by the start of the 2020 season if they continue to stockpile high draft picks, is a fireable offense, IMO. 

2020 will be year 4 of the Sox rebuild. The Cubs made it all the way to the NLCS during year 4 of their rebuild. I thought the Sox were trying to follow a similar blueprint?

The Sox will have Rodon under control in 2020 and 2021. These are years that they should be competing. Rodon should be a major anchor of the rotation during those years.

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

2020 will be year 4 of the Sox rebuild. The Cubs made it all the way to the NLCS during year 4 of their rebuild. I thought the Sox were trying to follow a similar blueprint?

The Sox will have Rodon under control in 2020 and 2021. These are years that they should be competing. Rodon should be a major anchor of the rotation during those years.

I doubt they'll be competing in 2020. The Kopech injury pushes everything back at least one season, if not two. Most likely, they'd be ready in 2020 only if everything went perfectly. It hasn't, to say the least. 2021 or 2022 now. The injuries in 2018 change a lot. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

2020 will be year 4 of the Sox rebuild. The Cubs made it all the way to the NLCS during year 4 of their rebuild. I thought the Sox were trying to follow a similar blueprint?

The Sox will have Rodon under control in 2020 and 2021. These are years that they should be competing. Rodon should be a major anchor of the rotation during those years.

And unfortunately, we are now undermanned during those years. That the Cubs did it does not change that reality. This is like the Cubs losing Bryant for 2015 and 2016. 

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

And unfortunately, we are now undermanned during those years. That the Cubs did it does not change that reality. This is like the Cubs losing Bryant for 2015 and 2016. 

Thanks for proving my point Balta. Hahn should definitely start conversations on Rodon this offseason. If he likes what he's hearing, he can pull the trigger. Otherwise, wait until midseason 2019. There are zero reasons why Rodon should be on the roster come 8/1/2019. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Jack Parkman