Rebuild= Epic Fail

[BlackSox13]

1 hour ago, GreenSox said:

Shields is a hole in the rotation.  Stacking a rotation with guys like Shields helped to cause this mess and will perpetuate it if Sox management continues to think players like him are the answer.
If the rebuild is on track, and it certainly should be, there is no reason they have to trade Rodon.

I totally agree with you. Would rather keep Rodon for at least the 2019 season and see how the young minor league pitching has progressed at the end of 2019. I would to try and sign a pitcher like Patrick Corbin to help solidify the rotation and hope one of Covey, Guerrero, Stephens, Adams can become a decent fifth starter. 

[Balta1701]

15 minutes ago, BlackSox13 said:

I totally agree with you. Would rather keep Rodon for at least the 2019 season and see how the young minor league pitching has progressed at the end of 2019. I would to try and sign a pitcher like Patrick Corbin to help solidify the rotation and hope one of Covey, Guerrero, Stephens, Adams can become a decent fifth starter. 

Are you willing to go well over the Samardzija deal on Corbin? 5/$125? He's already said that he wants to pitch for the Yankees so you're going to have to pay that guy.

[footlongcomiskeydog]

31 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Are you willing to go well over the Samardzija deal on Corbin? 5/$125? He's already said that he wants to pitch for the Yankees so you're going to have to pay that guy.

I don't see JR shelling out 100 million plus for any pitcher ever. 

The Sox rebuild was built mainly around pitching. They should use their FA $ to go after position players. They are gonna need a catcher, first baseman, third basemen, and probably a center fielder if they want to be competitive anytime soon. 

[BlackSox13]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Are you willing to go well over the Samardzija deal on Corbin? 5/$125? He's already said that he wants to pitch for the Yankees so you're going to have to pay that guy.

The same can be said about all the big free agents. Let's face it, with the Sox still rebuilding they aren't the most enticing team to sign a contract with so they will have to pay regardless. 

[GreenSox]

5 hours ago, footlongcomiskeydog said:

The rebuild is most certainly not on track. It is careening and wobbling like a 50 cent carnival ride at the old Kiddieland in Melrose Park. 

 

If it isn't, trading Rodon won't accelerate the rebuild, and will only make things worse.

[Jose Abreu]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Are you willing to go well over the Samardzija deal on Corbin? 5/$125? He's already said that he wants to pitch for the Yankees so you're going to have to pay that guy.

I know it apparently came from a 1 on 1 interview, but the source on that is Nightengale, which is something that should be mentioned in my opinion 

[ron883]

9 hours ago, Jose Abreu said:

How he's

a. still allowed to post, and

b. actually being taken seriously

is beyond me. Literally every. single. one. of his posts are just fear mongering negativity. It's not even a well-hidden troll job

Maybe longo has dirt on one is the mods here

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

7 hours ago, GreenSox said:

If it isn't, trading Rodon won't accelerate the rebuild, and will only make things worse.

How do you it will only make things worse? Depends on what they get in return. If they get Jimenez/Cease 2.0, I’m pretty sure that would be a net positive for the rebuild.

[Kyyle23]

30 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

How do you it will only make things worse? Depends on what they get in return. If they get Jimenez/Cease 2.0, I’m pretty sure that would be a net positive for the rebuild.

As much as I like Rodon, he isn’t getting that return.  Not with his inconsistent body of work and injuries

[YonderLaroche]

At least the Sox have a stacked farm system, and lots of money to spend.  With so many teams tanking,  free agents signing cheap, and salary dumps , there's no excuse to not be competitive in 2019.  

[GreenSox]

2 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

How do you it will only make things worse? Depends on what they get in return. If they get Jimenez/Cease 2.0, I’m pretty sure that would be a net positive for the rebuild.

Because a)I don't think that Rodon brings an ace return and b)if the rebuild is way off track, then much has been squandered already, and the remaining assets should be preserved.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

As much as I like Rodon, he isn’t getting that return.  Not with his inconsistent body of work and injuries

My version of the numbers is 2 top 50 guys + a strong third. I don't think he'll get that offer, but it's not out of the question given the years of control, and if he has a strong start to next season he should be able to get it by the deadline. I'm not in a hurry to move him, but I'm now listening.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, bryank1202 said:

At least the Sox have a stacked farm system, and lots of money to spend.  With so many teams tanking,  free agents signing cheap, and salary dumps , there's no excuse to not be competitive in 2019.  

The Minnesota Twins tried to buy into that philosophy this year when they went out and got guys like Morrison on the cheap.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

As much as I like Rodon, he isn’t getting that return.  Not with his inconsistent body of work and injuries

I haven't decided if I like the idea of trading him or not depends on when and the return. If it was this winter. I'd like a return of a strong offensive and defensive 3b prospect in AA or AAA and filler . Someone like Austin Riley of the Braves system. Camargo has had a very good season at 3dr for the Braves so Riley might be blocked. No idea if he can slot in anywhere else there but if the Sox could get him for Rodon . I'd take it.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

The Minnesota Twins tried to buy into that philosophy this year when they went out and got guys like Morrison on the cheap.

Might be nice if you said what you mean by this . Yes they did and ... ? Did it work out ? Not really . Doesn't mean it's a bad idea since the contract was cheap So what I seem to be getting from you is don't go into the veteran bargain bin even on the cheap and also don't sign anyone good for big money too ?

Let's look back at our old argument of me wanting Mike Moutaskas this year. I wanted him because he was under 30 good LH power bat filled a need at 3rd base also because he was cheap and could be flipped.  Now I don't know if the Sox signed him if it would have been for just 1 year for 6.5 mill like the Royals or more. Let's say it would've been for 1 yr and $7M.

You didn't want him because the Sox would have to give up a 2nd round pick and wanted to see what Yolmer could do at 3rd base. The Sox  picked Steele Walker another OF in a crowded OF picture for the Sox many years away from the big leagues if he can make it that far.

So he was flipped by the Royals for 2 guys. Brent Phillips a guy who could've given some competition for Adam Engel . Phillips probably plays CF just as well if not better than Engel has a cannon for an arm is younger than Engel and has decent upside, He also had a very good season in AAA.

The other guy they  got was Jorge Lopez who was also a AAA pitcher who the  Brewers had pitching in relief. The Royals converted him to a starter and called him up. Well he just pitched 8 innings of perfect baseball against the Twins. Small sample size but has to have a pretty good arm to do that especially after being in relief all year.

I pretty sure I'd like that return that the Royals got better than  Steele Walker at least for the time being. I know that the Sox could've traded Moustakas to another team and got different players but they have traded a lot with the Brewers recently so who knows, maybe they would've got a similar return.

A couple of decent MLB ready players would've helped the rebuild a lot more than Steele Walker since the Sox are weak at the AAA level.

 

[oldsox]

47 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Might be nice if you said what you mean by this . Yes they did and ... ? Did it work out ? Not really . Doesn't mean it's a bad idea since the contract was cheap So what I seem to be getting from you is don't go into the veteran bargain bin even on the cheap and also don't sign anyone good for big money too ?

Let's look back at our old argument of me wanting Mike Moutaskas this year. I wanted him because he was under 30 good LH power bat filled a need at 3rd base also because he was cheap and could be flipped.  Now I don't know if the Sox signed him if it would have been for just 1 year for 6.5 mill like the Royals or more. Let's say it would've been for 1 yr and $7M.

You didn't want him because the Sox would have to give up a 2nd round pick and wanted to see what Yolmer could do at 3rd base. The Sox  picked Steele Walker another OF in a crowded OF picture for the Sox many years away from the big leagues if he can make it that far.

So he was flipped by the Royals for 2 guys. Brent Phillips a guy who could've given some competition for Adam Engel . Phillips probably plays CF just as well if not better than Engel has a cannon for an arm is younger than Engel and has decent upside, He also had a very good season in AAA.

The other guy they  got was Jorge Lopez who was also a AAA pitcher who the  Brewers had pitching in relief. The Royals converted him to a starter and called him up. Well he just pitched 8 innings of perfect baseball against the Twins. Small sample size but has to have a pretty good arm to do that especially after being in relief all year.

I pretty sure I'd like that return that the Royals got better than  Steele Walker at least for the time being. I know that the Sox could've traded Moustakas to another team and got different players but they have traded a lot with the Brewers recently so who knows, maybe they would've got a similar return.

A couple of decent MLB ready players would've helped the rebuild a lot more than Steele Walker since the Sox are weak at the AAA level.

 

Good post.  I would love to hear Hahn's rebuttal to signing Moose and then flipping him the way KC did, but he probably hasn't even thought about it.

Now, Moose will be available again without the draft pick compensation.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, oldsox said:

Good post.  I would love to hear Hahn's rebuttal to signing Moose and then flipping him the way KC did, but he probably hasn't even thought about it.

Now, Moose will be available again without the draft pick compensation.  

Probably the same reasons in the arguments I got back for not signing him Didn't want to lose the draft pick and it was a development year and guys like Sanchez Davidson , Delmonico ,Engel etc all needed a chance to show what they got.

I also wanted JD Martinez and he's only going for a Triple Crown this year .Quite the hitter the Red Sox picked up for maybe a 1/3 of what Harper and Machado will end up costing. I know he's older than them and doesn't bring the defense and his contract is very complicated  with player opt outs for FA after the 2nd and 3rd year and mutual options after that . Doesn't sound like a bad deal for the player or the team.Maybe the W. Sox could've flipped him too if they had signed him to a higher and similar deal. He'd have had an extra yr to play with  but could've got a return similar or better to what the Dodgers gave up for Machado . The extra year worth more than what Machado brings defensively in only 1/2 season

[kitekrazy]

 Well I like what I see in the Sox A system.

 

 

[Balta1701]

4 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Might be nice if you said what you mean by this . Yes they did and ... ? Did it work out ? Not really . Doesn't mean it's a bad idea since the contract was cheap So what I seem to be getting from you is don't go into the veteran bargain bin even on the cheap and also don't sign anyone good for big money too ?

Let's look back at our old argument of me wanting Mike Moutaskas this year. I wanted him because he was under 30 good LH power bat filled a need at 3rd base also because he was cheap and could be flipped.  Now I don't know if the Sox signed him if it would have been for just 1 year for 6.5 mill like the Royals or more. Let's say it would've been for 1 yr and $7M.

You didn't want him because the Sox would have to give up a 2nd round pick and wanted to see what Yolmer could do at 3rd base. The Sox  picked Steele Walker another OF in a crowded OF picture for the Sox many years away from the big leagues if he can make it that far.

So he was flipped by the Royals for 2 guys. Brent Phillips a guy who could've given some competition for Adam Engel . Phillips probably plays CF just as well if not better than Engel has a cannon for an arm is younger than Engel and has decent upside, He also had a very good season in AAA.

The other guy they  got was Jorge Lopez who was also a AAA pitcher who the  Brewers had pitching in relief. The Royals converted him to a starter and called him up. Well he just pitched 8 innings of perfect baseball against the Twins. Small sample size but has to have a pretty good arm to do that especially after being in relief all year.

I pretty sure I'd like that return that the Royals got better than  Steele Walker at least for the time being. I know that the Sox could've traded Moustakas to another team and got different players but they have traded a lot with the Brewers recently so who knows, maybe they would've got a similar return.

A couple of decent MLB ready players would've helped the rebuild a lot more than Steele Walker since the Sox are weak at the AAA level.

 

So the deal you're telling me you'd make is Steele Walker for a guy who would "Give some competition for Adam Angel" and a relief pitcher? It's stronger for the time being because they're in AAA as opposed to just drafted? That's some really iffy arguments to my eyes. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

So the deal you're telling me you'd make is Steele Walker for a guy who would "Give some competition for Adam Angel" and a relief pitcher? It's stronger for the time being because they're in AAA as opposed to just drafted? That's some really iffy arguments to my eyes. 

Way to twist things, My argument was not what you twisted it into . Those were  your words not mine. I wrote a long post stating my arguments  if you want to twist them into your Readers Digest condensed version in order to justify that you lost this argument go right ahead. Who exactly could the Sox use more at the moment and the next 3 or 4 years Steele Walker or Brett Phillips  and Jorge Lopez ?

Frankly I had hoped you'd admit that my idea wasn't so bad after all. Instead you took the low road.

Edited September 9, 2018 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

So the deal you're telling me you'd make is Steele Walker for a guy who would "Give some competition for Adam Angel" and a relief pitcher? It's stronger for the time being because they're in AAA as opposed to just drafted? That's some really iffy arguments to my eyes. 

Is Lopez going to turn out to be a decent starter?  Let’s wait and see how he does against a playoff-caliber roster...and it’s not like Walker is projected to be a Gold Glove level outfielder, he’s a better version of Call/Fisher from previous drafts, sure, but how much better and where does he play?  For every “Walker was the best pure hitter in the draft” argument, there will be the retort that we said the same thing about Zach Collins, who isn’t currently listed on any Top 100 lists.

You can make the argument we need a starting pitcher at the back end and a higher upside CFer a lot more over the next 2-3 seasons, unless we are going to completely write off 2020 as well.  Before long, we will be arguing that we need to trade Moncada because we’ll only be competitive in his three most expensive arbitration years.

Then, we’ll basically be the Pirates.

Edited September 9, 2018 by caulfield12

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Is Lopez going to turn out to be a decent starter?  Let’s wait and see how he does against a playoff-caliber roster...

I take it you forgot about the first couple months of his starts. He has the ability. Needs to work on consistency.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Is Lopez going to turn out to be a decent starter?  Let’s wait and see how he does against a playoff-caliber roster...

Even if he doesn't you still have Brett Phillips . If Steele Walker ever turns into what Brett Phillips was at AAA and whatever he becomes in the future we will be lucky.

And frankly who cares how he does against a playoff caliber roster. Young pitchers struggle. Fact is the Sox couldve had 2 young major leaguers with upside since thats what Phillips and Lopez are right now for a small investment in Mike Moustakas, Now you throw in the fact that Kopech got injured and you can add in another starter to throw into the mix for next year if the Sox had converted him like the Royals did. After all isn't that the Sox strength ?

Edited September 9, 2018 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

21 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Is Lopez going to turn out to be a decent starter?  Let’s wait and see how he does against a playoff-caliber roster...and it’s not like Walker is projected to be a Gold Glove level outfielder, he’s a better version of Call/Fisher from previous drafts, sure, but how much better and where does he play?  For every “Walker was the best pure hitter in the draft” argument, there will be the retort that we said the same thing about Zach Collins, who isn’t currently listed on any Top 100 lists.

You can make the argument we need a starting pitcher at the back end and a higher upside CFer a lot more over the next 2-3 seasons, unless we are going to completely write off 2020 as well.  Before long, we will be arguing that we need to trade Moncada because we’ll only be competitive in his three most expensive arbitration years.

Then, we’ll basically be the Pirates.

Ok you edited your post adding a lot more to what you said. The edited version is much better.

[wrathofhahn]

Not going to lie after the Sale, Q, and Eaton trades I was one hundred percent behind Hahn remaining in charge and seeing the rebuild through now I'm not sure.

This season has been a total disaster not by the record because we all knew we were going to suck but he doesn't move Abreu. He has a down year and gets injured. Doesn't move Avi he's worth a fracton of what he was at the start of this offseason. Drafts an overhyped midget to play 2B with no power.

Has an totally unforced error bringing up kopech for reasons only he knows then he gets TJ meaning we will lose at least a years service time probably two. Doesn't get great returns on the trade he did make.

I created a thread in the offseason entitled trust the process the problem isn't that I put faith in the idea of a rebuild is that Hahn is fundamentally flawed and is incapable of operating a proper rebuild and has no process. The rumors of a Machafo trade in the offseason were dismissed by me out of hand now I'm not so sure

Edited September 10, 2018 by wrathofhahn