Another Bullet Dodged

[bubba phillips]

When the Sox started the first quarter of the season with a winning percentage of .250, several fans on the mlb.com board (since discontinued) were afraid the Sox might break the MLB record of worst team of all time (1962 NY Mets were 40-120).  Obviously, their fears were unwarranted.  We're much better than that.

Now another record will not be broken:  most losses by a White Sox team.  The wonderful 1970 team had a record of 56-106.  Last night's win was our 57th,  so we cannot lose more than 105 games this season.

Baby steps.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, bubba phillips said:

When the Sox started the first quarter of the season with a winning percentage of .250, several fans on the mlb.com board (since discontinued) were afraid the Sox might break the MLB record of worst team of all time (1962 NY Mets were 40-120).  Obviously, their fears were unwarranted.  We're much better than that.

Now another record will not be broken:  most losses by a White Sox team.  The wonderful 1970 team had a record of 56-106.  Last night's win was our 57th,  so we cannot lose more than 105 games this season.

Baby steps.

The White Sox hit 30 games below .500 on July 8th with a mark of 30-60.  Since then they are actually 27-29 over what is just a touch more than 1/3 of a season, that even includes the just finished 7 game losing streak.  This team has improved a lot over the course of the season, and now that we have some talent in the pen again, I would expect to see that growth continue into next year.

[Ducksnort]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

The White Sox hit 30 games below .500 on July 8th with a mark of 30-60.  Since then they are actually 27-29 over what is just a touch more than 1/3 of a season, that even includes the just finished 7 game losing streak.  This team has improved a lot over the course of the season, and now that we have some talent in the pen again, I would expect to see that growth continue into next year.

Wow, that actually puts it a lot into perspective. And provides hope haha.

[TheFutureIsNear]

Would have preferred to take the bullett....I’d much rather be competing with the Royals for #1 overall pick than where we are right now 

[hi8is]

1 hour ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

Would have preferred to take the bullett....I’d much rather be competing with the Royals for #1 overall pick than where we are right now 

Cough, orange birds, cough. 

[southsider2k5]

51 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Cough, orange birds, cough. 

Yeah no one was outtanking Baltimore this year. I will take the progress and a few picks lower.

[pcq]

7 hours ago, bubba phillips said:

When the Sox started the first quarter of the season with a winning percentage of .250, several fans on the mlb.com board (since discontinued) were afraid the Sox might break the MLB record of worst team of all time (1962 NY Mets were 40-120).  Obviously, their fears were unwarranted.  We're much better than that.

Now another record will not be broken:  most losses by a White Sox team.  The wonderful 1970 team had a record of 56-106.  Last night's win was our 57th,  so we cannot lose more than 105 games this season.

Baby steps.

Who can forget that old Astroturf infield. Bill Melton was on that squad along with Tommy John. 

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, pcq said:

Who can forget that old Astroturf infield. Bill Melton was on that squad along with Tommy John. 

And so was Joe Horlen, Gary Peters, Walt Williams, Carlos May, Wilbur Wood and ken Berry.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 9/13/2018 at 5:24 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

And so was Joe Horlen, Gary Peters, Walt Williams, Carlos May, Wilbur Wood and ken Berry.

You mentioned my 2 fav players as a kid Berry and Horlen. I'm sure you know but it was Joel not Joe.

[Lip Man 1]

14 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You mentioned my 2 fav players as a kid Berry and Horlen. I'm sure you know but it was Joel not Joe.

That was his birth name but he went by Joe. Unfortunately Joe now is in a nursing home in San Antonio where because of Alzheimer's he doesn't remember much about his playing days.

[oldsox]

3 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

That was his birth name but he went by Joe. Unfortunately Joe now is in a nursing home in San Antonio where because of Alzheimer's he doesn't remember much about his playing days.

Sorry to hear that.  I remember him well.

[GreenSox]

On 9/13/2018 at 7:24 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

And so was Joe Horlen, Gary Peters, Walt Williams, Carlos May, Wilbur Wood and ken Berry.

And Bobby Knoop, Syd O'Brien and Gary Janeski.

And then Roland came in and took care of things......Made some real baseball trades like Ken Berry and Syd O'Brien for Tom Bradley and Rick Reichardt.

Edited September 16, 2018 by GreenSox

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, GreenSox said:

And Bobby Knoop, Syd O'Brien and Gary Janeski.

And then Roland came in and took care of things......Made some real baseball trades like Ken Berry and Syd O'Brien for Tom Bradley and Rick Reichardt.

Before the start of the 71 season Roland and Chuck Tanner (since they worked together) had acquired Mike Andrews, Luis Alvarado, Jay Johnstone, Rick Reichardt, Tom Egan, Tom Bradley, Vicente Romo, Steve Kealy and Ed "the Creeper" Stroud. Almost a complete rebuild overnight. Then you add in the talent the Sox already had in Melton, May, Ed Herrmann, Wilbur Wood and Tommy John and that's how you go from 56 wins to 79.

[pcq]

On 9/13/2018 at 7:24 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

And so was Joe Horlen, Gary Peters, Walt Williams, Carlos May, Wilbur Wood and ken Berry.

Peters was on the Bosox. 

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, pcq said:

Peters was on the Bosox. 

You're right. He was the guy the Sox assaulted in the "Memorial Day" massacre that season at Fenway Park. I actually have some Red Sox TV video of that game in the library.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Lip Man 1

[CyAcosta41]

On 9/15/2018 at 12:09 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

That was his birth name but he went by Joe. Unfortunately Joe now is in a nursing home in San Antonio where because of Alzheimer's he doesn't remember much about his playing days.

Sox fans of a "certain age" couldn't get enough Horlen and Berry and Peters and Aparacio. The pitching on the '66 - '68 teams was insane. If only those teams had any hitting at all -- for one thing, '67 might have been a WHITE Sox/Cardinals Series instead of Bosox/Cardinals.

My personal favorites from that era were pitchers Horlen, Peters, Bruce Howard, and Tommy John, plus Little Looey and Ken Berry.

As far as Gentleman Joe (Joel) Horlen was concerned, one of my most memorable White Sox fan moments was sitting in a booth for 4 and spending 3-4 hours talking baseball, eating pizza, and drinking beer (Lou's on Wells) in October 2012 with Joe and Mike Epstein (Senators/Rangers/Oak; also baseball hitting coach known as Ted Williams's hand-picked hitting coach disciple).

Joe was on the decline already, but still one of the nicest and most genuine human beings I've ever had the privilege to meet. Soft-spoken; humble; genuinely modest about his career, including posting some crazy amazing stats in his hey-day. For the 'utes among us, it wouldn't be entirely inaccurate to think of Joe as a Greg Maddux type. As a 9 year old, I had the privilege of being there for his no-hitter against the Tigers. I remembered a fair amount about that game, but, of course, knowing that I was going to have dinner with Joe, I studied up on the highlights too. He had clearly forgotten a lot of it, but he couldn't get enough about my own memories, plus the deep-dive that I had done not only about that game, but his career -- who he was good against (and who hit him hard), plus who he had a little success against as a hitter (Joe was not a particularly good hitter; Gary Peters -- who some thought could have made it as a hitter and actually pinch-hit a bit for these hitless wonder Sox teams -- was the hitting pitcher on the team). And while some of the details of his career had clearly become a little foggy, he had quite a few colorful recollections about interactions with some of the superstars of the day -- including some stories about his winter playing with Roberto Clemente in Puerto Rico in the early 60s -- Joel thought Clemente was the best player he had ever seen.

And Mike Epstein -- simply a great guy as well. He had traveled with Joel and was very protective of his little buddy (Joel was a regular sized 5'11 or so guy and Mike Epstein was a 6'4 moose). They had been teammates on the 1972 Oakland A's -- Joel's last year in baseball, the only year he had NOT pitched for the Sox, and that A's team won the World Series of course against the Big Red Machine! During our night at Lou's, Joel made sure to tell the waitstaff that this quiet Texan had thrown a no-hitter and for a 5-6 year run was one of the best pitchers in the game -- the fine folks at Lou's did their part and supplied some free beer for the hero of the evening.

So sorry to hear that time and a truly harsh disease has had its way with one of the real good guys (baseball or anywhere). Be well, Joel Horlen!

Edited September 17, 2018 by CyAcosta41
late night typos! Argh!

[Lip Man 1]

9 hours ago, CyAcosta41 said:

Sox fans of a "certain age" couldn't get enough Horlen and Berry and Peters and Aparacio. The pitching on the '66 - '68 teams was insane. If only those teams had any hitting at all -- for one thing, '67 might have been a WHITE Sox/Cardinals Series instead of Bosox/Cardinals.

 

Actually the pitching on the teams 63-67 was insane. Four times out of five they led the league in ERA. As far as hitting they made a better offer to get Frank Robinson than the Orioles did but were turned down by the reds. They twice tried to get Yaz before his Triple Crown year in 67 and made a big attempt to get Hawk after he was made a free agent in August 67.

[CyAcosta41]

6 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Actually the pitching on the teams 63-67 was insane. Four times out of five they led the league in ERA. As far as hitting they made a better offer to get Frank Robinson than the Orioles did but were turned down by the reds. They twice tried to get Yaz before his Triple Crown year in 67 and made a big attempt to get Hawk after he was made a free agent in August 67.

Absolutely. I just mentioned a couple of years, but the combo of great talent, spacious fences in the Old Comiskey, and long infield grass produced year after year of staff-wide stellar pitching.  The starters were studs, but the bullpen rocked too -- in an era when bullpens were largely an after-thought, often a collection of failed starters. The youngsters here will recognize knuckleballers Hoyt Wilhelm and the bullpen version of Wilbur Wood, but the criminally underrated Bob Locker, plus Don McMahon, Dennis Higgins, Juan Pizzaro, and Eddie Fisher (another stud knuckler guy) meant than when said stud starters weren't throwing complete games (or nearly so), those Sox teams were bringing in real talent to finish the game.

I've heard all of the stories about all of the attempts to bolster the offense. Failed attempts at deals to bring in top talent. Misguided efforts to raise end-of-career talent from the dead -- Rocky Colavito and Ken Boyer, anyone? It's just truly sad to look back at those pitching staffs and remember that the anemic offense made 2nd place about the best that could be hoped for (other than in the debacle of the 1967 classic el-foldo down the stretch).

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, CyAcosta41 said:

Absolutely. I just mentioned a couple of years, but the combo of great talent, spacious fences in the Old Comiskey, and long infield grass produced year after year of staff-wide stellar pitching.  The starters were studs, but the bullpen rocked too -- in an era when bullpens were largely an after-thought, often a collection of failed starters. The youngsters here will recognize knuckleballers Hoyt Wilhelm and the bullpen version of Wilbur Wood, but the criminally underrated Bob Locker, plus Don McMahon, Dennis Higgins, Juan Pizzaro, and Eddie Fisher (another stud knuckler guy) meant than when said stud starters weren't throwing complete games (or nearly so), those Sox teams were bringing in real talent to finish the game.

I've heard all of the stories about all of the attempts to bolster the offense. Failed attempts at deals to bring in top talent. Misguided efforts to raise end-of-career talent from the dead -- Rocky Colavito and Ken Boyer, anyone? It's just truly sad to look back at those pitching staffs and remember that the anemic offense made 2nd place about the best that could be hoped for (other than in the debacle of the 1967 classic el-foldo down the stretch).

Always good to see you reappear Cy. When Don Buford and Ken Berry were your best hitters your offense was in trouble but those teams showed you just how far pitching and defense can take you.

[CyAcosta41]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Always good to see you reappear Cy. When Don Buford and Ken Berry were your best hitters your offense was in trouble but those teams showed you just how far pitching and defense can take you.

Good to see you too, man.

Yeah, in the pre advanced stat area where things like BA reigned supreme, I remember marveling endlessly that Buford and Berry tied for top spot BA on that great '67 team at .241. That seems impossible by today's standards. And revisiting with the lens of a somewhat advanced stat like OPS, Pete Ward led was the only plus-700 OPS-er at .726. Tommie Agee was next at .672, followed by everyone else mid .650s and lower.  Stated differently, Adam Engel would have been a middle-of-the-pack offensive performer on that team. Amazing.

Definitely shows that outstanding pitching and plus defense (not sure just how outstanding the defense was other than Ken Berry -- and who knows what advanced metrics might have shown us beyond the eyeball test of the day) could indeed take you far. But you needed just a little help from the offense too. So much pressure on the pitchers.

All that said, given the old adage about pitching carrying you in the post-season, you wonder whether some of the teams might have cleaned-up in the post-season if somehow they just could have got there. Always imagined that these staffs might have dominated in the one and done World Series round, much like:

'65 -- Koufax and Drysdale vs Twins

'66 -- McNally and Palmer vs Dodgers

'67 -- Gibson (more or less by himself) vs Red Sox

'68 -- Lolich and McLain vs Cardinals (and Gibson again)

'69 -- Seaver and Koosman vs Oriles (Cuellar, McNally, and Palmer)

Pitching and defense meant so much in those World Series games. The Sox might have done well -- albeit eeking out the single run necessary to win might have still been a challenge.

[bubba phillips]

5 hours ago, CyAcosta41 said:

Absolutely. I just mentioned a couple of years, but the combo of great talent, spacious fences in the Old Comiskey, and long infield grass produced year after year of staff-wide stellar pitching.  The starters were studs, but the bullpen rocked too -- in an era when bullpens were largely an after-thought, often a collection of failed starters. The youngsters here will recognize knuckleballers Hoyt Wilhelm and the bullpen version of Wilbur Wood, but the criminally underrated Bob Locker, plus Don McMahon, Dennis Higgins, Juan Pizzaro, and Eddie Fisher (another stud knuckler guy) meant than when said stud starters weren't throwing complete games (or nearly so), those Sox teams were bringing in real talent to finish the game.

I've heard all of the stories about all of the attempts to bolster the offense. Failed attempts at deals to bring in top talent. Misguided efforts to raise end-of-career talent from the dead -- Rocky Colavito and Ken Boyer, anyone? It's just truly sad to look back at those pitching staffs and remember that the anemic offense made 2nd place about the best that could be hoped for (other than in the debacle of the 1967 classic el-foldo down the stretch).

So that's where K. Williams got the idea when he was the GM.  (I wonder if the Alomar brothers are still alive and available?)

[southsider2k5]

14 minutes ago, bubba phillips said:

So that's where K. Williams got the idea when he was the GM.  (I wonder if the Alomar brothers are still alive and available?)

Also Sox fans:  Let's sign Josh Donaldson this winter!

[Bob Sacamano]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Also Sox fans:  Let's sign Josh Donaldson this winter!

To be fair, I've suggested signing him to a one-year deal in a likely non-competitive year.