Actual Values vs Party Values

[Y2HH]

Hello, I haven't posted here in quite some time -- as when I did I'd tend to troll people and eventually get myself banned.  I still lurk around and read, but on it's surface, it seems the Buster has become increasingly intolerant in the wake of the Trump administration (to some degree for very good reasons), and I got me wondering how people actually felt, versus how their parties want them to feel on the spectrum of issues.

I'm often accused of being "far right", when nothing could be further from the truth, as I have certain beliefs that lean one way or another, and it got me wondering how others feel, while trying to take their party affiliations out of the equation.

For example, on a few quick issues, this is how *I* feel, regardless of what whatever party you want to lump me into says I should feel.

Note: Try to inject some reality into this. I'm not looking for descriptions of your perfect utopian society we cannot achieve. I'm looking for realistic thoughts and feelings (in a brief manner) on any subject you feel is important.

* Religion - I have little use for it, I think it breeds hate and intolerance more than it breeds love and forgiveness. That being said, I also have nothing against it, so long as you do it on your own time and don't shove it in my face and most importantly, keep it out of government.

* Abortion - A woman's body is hers and hers alone. I'm pro choice. This shouldn't even be a thing.

* LGBTQXXXXX Rights - This just doesn't even register with me as something that matter, especially to government. They're people like everyone else, leave them the fuck alone. One caveat I'll add to this is don't expect me to call you some whimsical pronoun you just invented and get offended when I don't. If I make a mistake in reference to you, simply correct me, but don't get in my face or yell at me as being intolerant or ignorant. Mistakes happen.

* Healthcare - This needs to be redone from the ground up -- that means from the overly expensive schooling, malpractice insurance needs, pharma, what people in this profession make, etc...up to and including insurance reforms. We can't just "attack insurance companies" and expect the rest of the industry to fix itself. If single payer is the way, we need to find a legitimate way to fund it, and not some kick the can down the road, "fuck it, our great-great-great grandchildren can all live in poverty paying off the shit we abused".

* Gun rights - While I'm not anti-gun, I'm also not a gun owner, and don't really care for them. I'd be fine without them, but we'd need a legitimate way to curb the flow of illegal firearms into the country from anywhere they can enter illegally. The biggest issue with creating a black market is someone tends to "fill the void". See Prohibition for reference.

* Military - We need to drastically cut spending here and stop being the world's police force.

* Free Speech - This is one area where the far left is beginning to annoy me. I'm not a fan of shouting people down and refusing to let them discuss their opinion. So long as a person isn't calling for the harm of others, let them talk, especially the ignorant. Because the more they talk -- the less people will listen to their ignorant shit. We need to return to well-reasoned discussions to stop the continuing division in this country, it's disturbing.

* Fiscal Responsibility - We need this. Badly The republicans preach it, but don't actually follow it, and the democrats tend to tout the pie in the sky solutions and don't care, either. And it seems nothing actually gets fixed despite how much more we spend.

* Immigration. I'm all for legal immigration, while I feel for those that illegally immigrate. If I was in their shoes, I'd more than likely do the same thing to do better for my family. This is also one area of this country where a lot of people annoy me. Spoiled Americans "vowing" to leave the country unless they get their way while others are almost killing themselves to come here to make a better life for themselves, I propose anyone that threatened to "leave" when Trump won, should trade places with an illegal immigrant, giving them their US citizenship in exchange for "leaving the worst place on the planet".

* Hollywood - I'm tired of the virtue signaling from Hollywood elites that act like they understand ordinary people or that they're "above the fray". More than half of those audiences (emmys, oscars) cheering "fuck trump" bullshit are some of the worst people in the world that have done some of the worst things to people. I believe people like Weinstein are just scratching the surface of that "holier than thou" elitist tribe.

-----

Anyway, that's just a few of my random thoughts since I've been away for a while. Please, if you decide to reply, be reasonable and don't attack me. ? 

[illinilaw08]

19 minutes ago, Y2HH said:

Hello, I haven't posted here in quite some time -- as when I did I'd tend to troll people and eventually get myself banned.  I still lurk around and read, but on it's surface, it seems the Buster has become increasingly intolerant in the wake of the Trump administration (to some degree for very good reasons), and I got me wondering how people actually felt, versus how their parties want them to feel on the spectrum of issues.

I'm often accused of being "far right", when nothing could be further from the truth, as I have certain beliefs that lean one way or another, and it got me wondering how others feel, while trying to take their party affiliations out of the equation.

For example, on a few quick issues, this is how *I* feel, regardless of what whatever party you want to lump me into says I should feel.

Note: Try to inject some reality into this. I'm not looking for descriptions of your perfect utopian society we cannot achieve. I'm looking for realistic thoughts and feelings (in a brief manner) on any subject you feel is important.

* Religion - I have little use for it, I think it breeds hate and intolerance more than it breeds love and forgiveness. That being said, I also have nothing against it, so long as you do it on your own time and don't shove it in my face and most importantly, keep it out of government.

* Abortion - A woman's body is hers and hers alone. I'm pro choice. This shouldn't even be a thing.

* LGBTQXXXXX Rights - This just doesn't even register with me as something that matter, especially to government. They're people like everyone else, leave them the fuck alone. One caveat I'll add to this is don't expect me to call you some whimsical pronoun you just invented and get offended when I don't. If I make a mistake in reference to you, simply correct me, but don't get in my face or yell at me as being intolerant or ignorant. Mistakes happen.

* Healthcare - This needs to be redone from the ground up -- that means from the overly expensive schooling, malpractice insurance needs, pharma, what people in this profession make, etc...up to and including insurance reforms. We can't just "attack insurance companies" and expect the rest of the industry to fix itself. If single payer is the way, we need to find a legitimate way to fund it, and not some kick the can down the road, "fuck it, our great-great-great grandchildren can all live in poverty paying off the shit we abused".

* Gun rights - While I'm not anti-gun, I'm also not a gun owner, and don't really care for them. I'd be fine without them, but we'd need a legitimate way to curb the flow of illegal firearms into the country from anywhere they can enter illegally. The biggest issue with creating a black market is someone tends to "fill the void". See Prohibition for reference.

* Military - We need to drastically cut spending here and stop being the world's police force.

* Free Speech - This is one area where the far left is beginning to annoy me. I'm not a fan of shouting people down and refusing to let them discuss their opinion. So long as a person isn't calling for the harm of others, let them talk, especially the ignorant. Because the more they talk -- the less people will listen to their ignorant shit. We need to return to well-reasoned discussions to stop the continuing division in this country, it's disturbing.

* Fiscal Responsibility - We need this. Badly The republicans preach it, but don't actually follow it, and the democrats tend to tout the pie in the sky solutions and don't care, either. And it seems nothing actually gets fixed despite how much more we spend.

* Immigration. I'm all for legal immigration, while I feel for those that illegally immigrate. If I was in their shoes, I'd more than likely do the same thing to do better for my family. This is also one area of this country where a lot of people annoy me. Spoiled Americans "vowing" to leave the country unless they get their way while others are almost killing themselves to come here to make a better life for themselves, I propose anyone that threatened to "leave" when Trump won, should trade places with an illegal immigrant, giving them their US citizenship in exchange for "leaving the worst place on the planet".

* Hollywood - I'm tired of the virtue signaling from Hollywood elites that act like they understand ordinary people or that they're "above the fray". More than half of those audiences (emmys, oscars) cheering "fuck trump" bullshit are some of the worst people in the world that have done some of the worst things to people. I believe people like Weinstein are just scratching the surface of that "holier than thou" elitist tribe.

-----

Anyway, that's just a few of my random thoughts since I've been away for a while. Please, if you decide to reply, be reasonable and don't attack me. ? 

Religion - I generally agree.  The problem with religion is when people legislate on the basis of their religion.  This is a huge issue (IMO) with the Republican Party.

Abortion - Agreed.

LGBTQ - Agreed.

Free Speech - "Because the more they talk -- the less people will listen to their ignorant shit" does not seem grounded in reality.  The President says ignorant shit on a near daily basis and his supporters eat it up.  I have not seen the Left calling to criminalize or ban speech, but attacking ignorant viewpoints seems fine.

Healthcare - Lot of systemic issues - policy needs to be focused on greater access to care at a lower cost.  One party has ideas on that, one party does not.

Gun Rights - Stop relying on the 2nd Amendment as a crutch.  Acknowledge the reality that more guns = more gun related deaths.  Start having actual policy discussions about how to limit gun deaths without banning firearms outright.

Military - Generally agree here, but you have to slowly transition from your international commitments.  28,000 troops leaving North Korea tomorrow would create a massive power vacuum in the region.  More importantly, I want greater ethical accountability from the military.  Saudi Arabia is using US weapons in Yemen with a complete disregard to civilian casualties.   Shut down arms sale to the Saudis until they get their shit together.

Fiscal Responsibility - Democrats talk about using government to provide a social safety net - Medicaid, housing, food stamps, social security, and Medicare are things that some of the most vulnerable people in society rely upon to survive.  Republicans talk about fiscal responsibility when they are out of power, and then immediately pass deficit killing tax reform where the vast majority of the benefit trickles up - to people that do not need the relief.  

Immigration - Illegal immigration is generally a net positive for the economy.  Targeted enforcement - deport the actual criminals - is far superior to the method that the Republicans are throwing out there.  Legal immigration is a huge net positive.

Hollywood - Curious why you even included them here.  Hollywood isn't perfect (obviously), but it also isn't a monolithic entity.  They also don't drive policy at a national level.  You want to talk about a problem with this country?  How about the President of the United States taking advice from partisan shock jocks on Fox News.

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, Y2HH said:

Hello, I haven't posted here in quite some time -- as when I did I'd tend to troll people and eventually get myself banned.  I still lurk around and read, but on it's surface, it seems the Buster has become increasingly intolerant in the wake of the Trump administration (to some degree for very good reasons), and I got me wondering how people actually felt, versus how their parties want them to feel on the spectrum of issues.

I'm often accused of being "far right", when nothing could be further from the truth, as I have certain beliefs that lean one way or another, and it got me wondering how others feel, while trying to take their party affiliations out of the equation.

For example, on a few quick issues, this is how *I* feel, regardless of what whatever party you want to lump me into says I should feel.

Note: Try to inject some reality into this. I'm not looking for descriptions of your perfect utopian society we cannot achieve. I'm looking for realistic thoughts and feelings (in a brief manner) on any subject you feel is important.

* Religion - I have little use for it, I think it breeds hate and intolerance more than it breeds love and forgiveness. That being said, I also have nothing against it, so long as you do it on your own time and don't shove it in my face and most importantly, keep it out of government.

* Abortion - A woman's body is hers and hers alone. I'm pro choice. This shouldn't even be a thing.

* LGBTQXXXXX Rights - This just doesn't even register with me as something that matter, especially to government. They're people like everyone else, leave them the fuck alone. One caveat I'll add to this is don't expect me to call you some whimsical pronoun you just invented and get offended when I don't. If I make a mistake in reference to you, simply correct me, but don't get in my face or yell at me as being intolerant or ignorant. Mistakes happen.

* Healthcare - This needs to be redone from the ground up -- that means from the overly expensive schooling, malpractice insurance needs, pharma, what people in this profession make, etc...up to and including insurance reforms. We can't just "attack insurance companies" and expect the rest of the industry to fix itself. If single payer is the way, we need to find a legitimate way to fund it, and not some kick the can down the road, "fuck it, our great-great-great grandchildren can all live in poverty paying off the shit we abused".

* Gun rights - While I'm not anti-gun, I'm also not a gun owner, and don't really care for them. I'd be fine without them, but we'd need a legitimate way to curb the flow of illegal firearms into the country from anywhere they can enter illegally. The biggest issue with creating a black market is someone tends to "fill the void". See Prohibition for reference.

* Military - We need to drastically cut spending here and stop being the world's police force.

* Free Speech - This is one area where the far left is beginning to annoy me. I'm not a fan of shouting people down and refusing to let them discuss their opinion. So long as a person isn't calling for the harm of others, let them talk, especially the ignorant. Because the more they talk -- the less people will listen to their ignorant shit. We need to return to well-reasoned discussions to stop the continuing division in this country, it's disturbing.

* Fiscal Responsibility - We need this. Badly The republicans preach it, but don't actually follow it, and the democrats tend to tout the pie in the sky solutions and don't care, either. And it seems nothing actually gets fixed despite how much more we spend.

* Immigration. I'm all for legal immigration, while I feel for those that illegally immigrate. If I was in their shoes, I'd more than likely do the same thing to do better for my family. This is also one area of this country where a lot of people annoy me. Spoiled Americans "vowing" to leave the country unless they get their way while others are almost killing themselves to come here to make a better life for themselves, I propose anyone that threatened to "leave" when Trump won, should trade places with an illegal immigrant, giving them their US citizenship in exchange for "leaving the worst place on the planet".

* Hollywood - I'm tired of the virtue signaling from Hollywood elites that act like they understand ordinary people or that they're "above the fray". More than half of those audiences (emmys, oscars) cheering "fuck trump" bullshit are some of the worst people in the world that have done some of the worst things to people. I believe people like Weinstein are just scratching the surface of that "holier than thou" elitist tribe.

-----

Anyway, that's just a few of my random thoughts since I've been away for a while. Please, if you decide to reply, be reasonable and don't attack me. ? 

Most of your stuff I agree with, but I don't really care about Hollywood. I will say, the right sure has no problem tar and feathering Weinstein (although I think he's scum), but using the criteria they use for anyone who appears to be a Trump supporter, he denies a lot of what he has been accused and his life is ruined by allegations that, if they were as bad as the victims claimed, Trump eloquently stated, they would have called the FBI right away.  

[Y2HH]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Most of your stuff I agree with, but I don't really care about Hollywood. I will say, the right sure has no problem tar and feathering Weinstein (although I think he's scum), but using the criteria they use for anyone who appears to be a Trump supporter, he denies a lot of what he has been accused and his life is ruined by allegations that, if they were as bad as the victims claimed, Trump eloquently stated, they would have called the FBI right away.  

My inclusion of Hollywood is because they tend to be quite "leftist" in their spouted agendas, yet the reality is they're usually anything but these nice people they pretend to be in front of a camera. They also have WAY TOO MUCH influence over the youth. They call for things like Socialism, because they're so rich it won't really affect them one way or another, and they don't actually understand what "true socialism" even is. Most of the European nations they point too aren't even socialist, they're capitalist with more social programs than the US, most of which get away with having an almost zero military budget because of us (pardun the US pun).

I'm not a fan of Trump, the more he talks, the more I cringe. That being said, I'm not in agreeance with many on the left that anyone that supports Trump is a racist xenophobe, either. That kind of all or nothing talk really irks me. I know plenty of people that voted for Obama that then voted for Trump, and they're none of those things, and it's quite annoying when we take complex issues and simply say things like that about large swaths of people. Hollywood is simply an easy way to highlight this for me.

[Y2HH]

1 minute ago, Tony said:

I actually find myself agreeing with most of this as well. I did highlight the free speech line you used however, because that is an area that I have to disagree with. The problem is people do talk and say whatever they want....and people listen. Alex Jones is basically a wrestling character, an act, a character. Yet millions upon millions of people (registered voters) can't make the determination that it's an act and actually believe him and cite him in arguments. Now you can make the case that with or without Alex Jones those people are going to say dumb shit, and you'd probably be right, but I do have a problem with the era that we live in, and the power that social media has to give anyone a megaphone, is dangerous. 

I would make that case about Alex Jones listeners. Anyone stupid enough to believe Alex Jones is stupid enough to come to those very same conclusions without him. Alex Jones is the epitome of confirmation bias, and that's the only reason the ignorant tend to listen to anything he says. The greatest thing and the worst thing about the Internet is it gave everyone -- from the most intelligent among us, to the most stupid -- a voice. It's a double edged sword at it's finest use of the definition. That being said, I think it's a better thing than just a few, "hand picked, and quite often mega rich out of touch individuals" having that same power, completely unchecked.

Part of overcoming people like Alex Jones is education. It's not like ignorant widespread belief systems like the KKK didn't exist long before social media. I just think it's even more dangerous to stifle free speech than it is to let the ignorant speak their minds.

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, Y2HH said:

My inclusion of Hollywood is because they tend to be quite "leftist" in their spouted agendas, yet the reality is they're usually anything but these nice people they pretend to be in front of a camera. They also have WAY TOO MUCH influence over the youth. They call for things like Socialism, because they're so rich it won't really affect them one way or another, and they don't actually understand what "true socialism" even is. Most of the European nations they point too aren't even socialist, they're capitalist with more social programs than the US, most of which get away with having an almost zero military budget because of us (pardun the US pun).

I'm not a fan of Trump, the more he talks, the more I cringe. That being said, I'm not in agreeance with many on the left that anyone that supports Trump is a racist xenophobe, either. That kind of all or nothing talk really irks me. I know plenty of people that voted for Obama that then voted for Trump, and they're none of those things, and it's quite annoying when we take complex issues and simply say things like that about large swaths of people. Hollywood is simply an easy way to highlight this for me.

The thing I don't get about the Trump party is what is an isn't  proper behaviour, even a crime,  depends on who you voted for. At least the Hollywood elites, and really I pay little attention to them for any sort of guidance, know when wrong is wrong. If Weinstein were a Trump supporter, he would have been a really great guy who had his life ruined by false comments. 

[bmags]

1 hour ago, Y2HH said:

Hello, I haven't posted here in quite some time -- as when I did I'd tend to troll people and eventually get myself banned.  I still lurk around and read, but on it's surface, it seems the Buster has become increasingly intolerant in the wake of the Trump administration (to some degree for very good reasons), and I got me wondering how people actually felt, versus how their parties want them to feel on the spectrum of issues.

I'm often accused of being "far right", when nothing could be further from the truth, as I have certain beliefs that lean one way or another, and it got me wondering how others feel, while trying to take their party affiliations out of the equation.

For example, on a few quick issues, this is how *I* feel, regardless of what whatever party you want to lump me into says I should feel.

Note: Try to inject some reality into this. I'm not looking for descriptions of your perfect utopian society we cannot achieve. I'm looking for realistic thoughts and feelings (in a brief manner) on any subject you feel is important.

* Religion - I have little use for it, I think it breeds hate and intolerance more than it breeds love and forgiveness. That being said, I also have nothing against it, so long as you do it on your own time and don't shove it in my face and most importantly, keep it out of government.

* Abortion - A woman's body is hers and hers alone. I'm pro choice. This shouldn't even be a thing.

* LGBTQXXXXX Rights - This just doesn't even register with me as something that matter, especially to government. They're people like everyone else, leave them the fuck alone. One caveat I'll add to this is don't expect me to call you some whimsical pronoun you just invented and get offended when I don't. If I make a mistake in reference to you, simply correct me, but don't get in my face or yell at me as being intolerant or ignorant. Mistakes happen.

* Healthcare - This needs to be redone from the ground up -- that means from the overly expensive schooling, malpractice insurance needs, pharma, what people in this profession make, etc...up to and including insurance reforms. We can't just "attack insurance companies" and expect the rest of the industry to fix itself. If single payer is the way, we need to find a legitimate way to fund it, and not some kick the can down the road, "fuck it, our great-great-great grandchildren can all live in poverty paying off the shit we abused".

* Gun rights - While I'm not anti-gun, I'm also not a gun owner, and don't really care for them. I'd be fine without them, but we'd need a legitimate way to curb the flow of illegal firearms into the country from anywhere they can enter illegally. The biggest issue with creating a black market is someone tends to "fill the void". See Prohibition for reference.

* Military - We need to drastically cut spending here and stop being the world's police force.

* Free Speech - This is one area where the far left is beginning to annoy me. I'm not a fan of shouting people down and refusing to let them discuss their opinion. So long as a person isn't calling for the harm of others, let them talk, especially the ignorant. Because the more they talk -- the less people will listen to their ignorant shit. We need to return to well-reasoned discussions to stop the continuing division in this country, it's disturbing.

* Fiscal Responsibility - We need this. Badly The republicans preach it, but don't actually follow it, and the democrats tend to tout the pie in the sky solutions and don't care, either. And it seems nothing actually gets fixed despite how much more we spend.

* Immigration. I'm all for legal immigration, while I feel for those that illegally immigrate. If I was in their shoes, I'd more than likely do the same thing to do better for my family. This is also one area of this country where a lot of people annoy me. Spoiled Americans "vowing" to leave the country unless they get their way while others are almost killing themselves to come here to make a better life for themselves, I propose anyone that threatened to "leave" when Trump won, should trade places with an illegal immigrant, giving them their US citizenship in exchange for "leaving the worst place on the planet".

* Hollywood - I'm tired of the virtue signaling from Hollywood elites that act like they understand ordinary people or that they're "above the fray". More than half of those audiences (emmys, oscars) cheering "fuck trump" bullshit are some of the worst people in the world that have done some of the worst things to people. I believe people like Weinstein are just scratching the surface of that "holier than thou" elitist tribe.

-----

Anyway, that's just a few of my random thoughts since I've been away for a while. Please, if you decide to reply, be reasonable and don't attack me. ? 

I've never considered you far-right.

I think while you will face broad agreement, I think the disagreements you hit on are the thresholds, or what actually motivates voting.

For instance, the treatment of immigrant children being removed from their parents is so awful to me, that it wouldn't really matter if an elected rep was for single payer and pro-choice if they also supported what I consider to be torturing of children (and parents).

If we were having, and what I miss, just banal policy disagreements that can boost or punish people on the margins (healthcare, fiscal policy) then I agree some perspective in order. BUt there are policies (gay rights, abortion) where the impacts are so punitive and unforgiving that I can't just say "well, but we agree on the deficit".

And that's really what drives people. But overall, as long as I know the person thinks that their policies put americans in the best position possible even if I disagree with it. THat's fine. There's a lot of people right now that first and foremost just want to piss off other americans, and I'm not going to find common ground with them. They are wrong and need to feel their opinions are wrong.

[Y2HH]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The thing I don't get about the Trump party is what is an isn't  proper behaviour, even a crime,  depends on who you voted for. At least the Hollywood elites, and really I pay little attention to them for any sort of guidance, know when wrong is wrong. If Weinstein were a Trump supporter, he would have been a really great guy who had his life ruined by false comments. 

See, here is where the disconnect comes from. There is no fucking way in hell that a LOT of people in Hollywood didn't know what Weinstein was up to, and yet all of them let him get away with it for YEARS before it suddenly became okay to step up and act the hero when it became convenient to do so. Only after a few brave girls stepped up and risked their careers did people suddenly turn on that prick. If they truly knew when wrong was wrong, Weinstein would have been exposed by others in the industry LONG before women stepped up.

[bmags]

3 minutes ago, Y2HH said:

See, here is where the disconnect comes from. There is no fucking way in hell that a LOT of people in Hollywood didn't know what Weinstein was up to, and yet all of them let him get away with it for YEARS before it suddenly became okay to step up and act the hero when it became convenient to do so. Only after a few brave girls stepped up and risked their careers did people suddenly turn on that prick. If they truly knew when wrong was wrong, Weinstein would have been exposed by others in the industry LONG before women stepped up.

I think we have a long way to go in figuring out what systems can tolerate these behaviors and how to correct it. Hollywood in a way is a monopoly, and when people were victimized they knew coming forward would shut them out, though that happened anyway.

But would i have thought same could happen in banking (examples with a goldman sachs exec unable to find job in banking) or media (seemed to disparate, but concentrated in top networks).

It's crazy, now it's clear that universities, sectors, industries, all have potential to tolerate a lot when a strong personality leans on other people, and then "the whole town looks the other way".

[Y2HH]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

I've never considered you far-right.

I think while you will face broad agreement, I think the disagreements you hit on are the thresholds, or what actually motivates voting.

For instance, the treatment of immigrant children being removed from their parents is so awful to me, that it wouldn't really matter if an elected rep was for single payer and pro-choice if they also supported what I consider to be torturing of children (and parents).

If we were having, and what I miss, just banal policy disagreements that can boost or punish people on the margins (healthcare, fiscal policy) then I agree some perspective in order. BUt there are policies (gay rights, abortion) where the impacts are so punitive and unforgiving that I can't just say "well, but we agree on the deficit".

And that's really what drives people. But overall, as long as I know the person thinks that their policies put americans in the best position possible even if I disagree with it. THat's fine. There's a lot of people right now that first and foremost just want to piss off other americans, and I'm not going to find common ground with them. They are wrong and need to feel their opinions are wrong.

See, this is one of those things where I argue that children being seperated from parents is a about written law, not about the Trump administration being evil. It's also quite 'head in the sand' when I see people pretend this wasn't happening during Obama's administration. It was -- perhaps not to the degree it's happening now -- but it was happening. Now, here is where I actually get angry -- the Democrats who argue against this practice were literally in majority control for well over two years and never did anything about it. I mean, I know they can't walk and chew gum at the same time, but this kind of stuff really annoys me about politicians and the people that give them excuses for doing nothing when they had the chance to do something, and then years later turn around and play angry about the practice.

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, Y2HH said:

See, here is where the disconnect comes from. There is no fucking way in hell that a LOT of people in Hollywood didn't know what Weinstein was up to, and yet all of them let him get away with it for YEARS before it suddenly became okay to step up and act the hero when it became convenient to do so. Only after a few brave girls stepped up and risked their careers did people suddenly turn on that prick. If they truly knew when wrong was wrong, Weinstein would have been exposed by others in the industry LONG before women stepped up.

Right, because coming forward ruins your livelihood . These people who have made it, live quite a life. They don't want to risk it all for what could be nothing.  His power would have overcome a couple of accusations and rumors. It took an army to take him down. 

It used to always confuse me why women who have been assaulted, women who have been beaten rarely came forward, but the me too movement has made that clear to me.

I 

[GoSox05]

20 minutes ago, Y2HH said:

My inclusion of Hollywood is because they tend to be quite "leftist" in their spouted agendas, yet the reality is they're usually anything but these nice people they pretend to be in front of a camera. They also have WAY TOO MUCH influence over the youth. They call for things like Socialism, because they're so rich it won't really affect them one way or another, and they don't actually understand what "true socialism" even is. Most of the European nations they point too aren't even socialist, they're capitalist with more social programs than the US, most of which get away with having an almost zero military budget because of us (pardun the US pun).

I'm not a fan of Trump, the more he talks, the more I cringe. That being said, I'm not in agreeance with many on the left that anyone that supports Trump is a racist xenophobe, either. That kind of all or nothing talk really irks me. I know plenty of people that voted for Obama that then voted for Trump, and they're none of those things, and it's quite annoying when we take complex issues and simply say things like that about large swaths of people. Hollywood is simply an easy way to highlight this for me.

1. Uh, I don't really see a lot of this. I don't really see a lot of actors saying we should be a Marxist country and if they are I don't see kids suddenly being super influenced by it.

2. I don't think people who say things like " you don't know what real socialism is" really know what socialism is.

3. Most don't have a military budget because they see how destructive it is to spend all your nation's resources on it.

Edited September 21, 2018 by GoSox05

[Kyyle23]

7 minutes ago, Y2HH said:

See, this is one of those things where I argue that children being seperated from parents is a about written law, not about the Trump administration being evil. It's also quite 'head in the sand' when I see people pretend this wasn't happening during Obama's administration. It was -- perhaps not to the degree it's happening now -- but it was happening. Now, here is where I actually get angry -- the Democrats who argue against this practice were literally in majority control for well over two years and never did anything about it. I mean, I know they can't walk and chew gum at the same time, but this kind of stuff really annoys me about politicians and the people that give them excuses for doing nothing when they had the chance to do something, and then years later turn around and play angry about the practice.

I was under the impression that under the Obama administration kids werent being separated and detained from their parents, but rather kids who were sent without accompanying parents were detained and then sent back.   I recognize that detaining kids either way is horrible, but i think that distinction is important because it shows a willingness and want in the current administration to inflict harm and distress.

Seeing some of these young kids being reunited with parents and showing symptoms of  PTSD is horrible, i cant unsee some of those videos. 

[Y2HH]

2 minutes ago, GoSox05 said:

1. Uh, I don't really see a lot of this. I don't really see a lot of actors saying we should be a Marxist country and if they are I don't see kids suddenly being super influenced by it.

2. I don't think people who say things like " you don't know what real socialism is" really know what socialism is.

3. Most don't have a military budget because they see how destructive it is to spend all your nation's resources on it.

1) If you don't see a lot of this, you need to open your eyes. People like Ocasio-Cortez didn't suddenly pop up into prominent position in the democratic party because of how little of this there is.

2) I know what actual socialism is, and most "first world" nations don't have it, they're exactly like the US with stricter regulation and just an increased amount of "social programs", like Medicare, etc. They tend to have the same divide of rich vs poor.

3) I think some form of military is required for the US, just not to the extent we have it at. Other nations don't have a military budget because they have the US acting as their military, and that gives them the option to "not spend all their resources on it", an option we clearly do not have.

[bmags]

4 minutes ago, Y2HH said:

See, this is one of those things where I argue that children being seperated from parents is a about written law, not about the Trump administration being evil. It's also quite 'head in the sand' when I see people pretend this wasn't happening during Obama's administration. It was -- perhaps not to the degree it's happening now -- but it was happening. Now, here is where I actually get angry -- the Democrats who argue against this practice were literally in majority control for well over two years and never did anything about it. I mean, I know they can't walk and chew gum at the same time, but this kind of stuff really annoys me about politicians and the people that give them excuses for doing nothing when they had the chance to do something, and then years later turn around and play angry about the practice.

- The Obama administration supported a law that passed with 60 senators in 2013 that then was not allowed to be voted on by the Republican house, the Gang of 8 bill.

- Courts ruled that indefinite detention of minors could not happen, at which point the Obama administration held families together for the max allowed days and then released them. They also instituted a program that increased the percentage that showed up for their court date up to 90% of cases. 

- The Obama admin border crisis saw unparented migrant teens from guatemala surge across border which backed up processing. They were in bad conditions, an more should have been done to improve them, but they were not trying to teach them a lesson. THey were processed as quickly as possible while they tried to find relatives to house them while they showed up for court. THat bare minimum of humanity, while not lauditory, is all that I ask for before it becomes a passion that drives my behavior.

- AG Sessions specifically started to prosecute all border crosses criminally, called the zero tolerance policy, and specifically decided to separate children from parents because of this. There is ample record that they planned for this to happen. It is this specific policy, not immigration policy writ large, that is abhorrent.

It is not a "but obama" issue.

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, Y2HH said:

1) If you don't see a lot of this, you need to open your eyes. People like Ocasio-Cortez didn't suddenly pop up into prominent position in the democratic party because of how little of this there is.

 

She's not even a congresswoman.

[Y2HH]

Just now, bmags said:

She's not even a congresswoman.

I didn't say she was, but she is suddenly a prominent figure of the party -- often cited in the media as "the future" of the party. This is all stemming from something. And she's not the only one running this super far left "democratic socialist" platform that Bernie Sanders made popular.

[Y2HH]

I really didn't want this thread going off course where I wind up defending my feelings to everyone that posts.  What I wanted to get to know some of your thoughts/feelings on these (or other issues), that may go against the grain of your party.

[GoSox05]

7 minutes ago, Y2HH said:

I really didn't want this thread going off course where I wind up defending my feelings to everyone that posts.  What I wanted to get to know some of your thoughts/feelings on these (or other issues), that may go against the grain of your party.

I understand this, but when you post political views that I find something wrong with.  I'm going to argue it.

[southsider2k5]

23 minutes ago, Y2HH said:

I really didn't want this thread going off course where I wind up defending my feelings to everyone that posts.  What I wanted to get to know some of your thoughts/feelings on these (or other issues), that may go against the grain of your party.

Yeah, you should know Soxtalk better than that dude.  You just declared open season on yourself.

[bmags]

I mean someone easily could have clapped back at me for including health care as a policy on the margins, but my point wasn't that I'm right and you are wrong, more that there is a heirarchy to positions taken politically.

This forum I think has always had more overlap in being liberal in social issues, and 10 years ago, foreign policy seemed a way bigger driver. That seems much closer together now too.

I'd imagine there is more overlap on all policy than 10 years ago, but eventually people will hit that policy they aren't willing to negotiate over.

I also want to say about this forum that gets crapped on a lot, I absolutely have shifted opinions due to discussion on this forum.

[Y2HH]

36 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yeah, you should know Soxtalk better than that dude.  You just declared open season on yourself.

That's fine, I can take it.

[Y2HH]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

I mean someone easily could have clapped back at me for including health care as a policy on the margins, but my point wasn't that I'm right and you are wrong, more that there is a heirarchy to positions taken politically.

This forum I think has always had more overlap in being liberal in social issues, and 10 years ago, foreign policy seemed a way bigger driver. That seems much closer together now too.

I'd imagine there is more overlap on all policy than 10 years ago, but eventually people will hit that policy they aren't willing to negotiate over.

I also want to say about this forum that gets crapped on a lot, I absolutely have shifted opinions due to discussion on this forum.

I've shifted positions as I've aged -- be it from this forums discussions, or the quickly changing state of the world. I sometimes have bizarre views on things, depending on the subject. This is why I tend to not affiliate with any party. I believe in fiscal responsibility, both from the government and the individual, and I know this is not a priority or even a thing in either party platform, so I tend disagree quite heavily with both on this point. They often come up with ideas -- if you want to call them ideas -- but with no reasonable way to fund them.

I think this forum gets crapped on a lot because it's become quite divisive. I've seen quite a few posts as of late that come across as very much an "us vs them" attitude -- and I find this attitude abhorrent. Nobody seems to have respect for anyone anymore, especially when they happen to have a differing view on things. Instead of trying to know the person and understand why they have such a view, they simply attack them for being "stupid, or ignorant, or racist", and I really hate where this is going.

[illinilaw08]

1 minute ago, Y2HH said:

I've shifted positions as I've aged -- be it from this forums discussions, or the quickly changing state of the world. I sometimes have bizarre views on things, depending on the subject. This is why I tend to not affiliate with any party. I believe in fiscal responsibility, both from the government and the individual, and I know this is not a priority or even a thing in either party platform, so I tend disagree quite heavily with both on this point. They often come up with ideas -- if you want to call them ideas -- but with no reasonable way to fund them.

I think this forum gets crapped on a lot because it's become quite divisive. I've seen quite a few posts as of late that come across as very much an "us vs them" attitude -- and I find this attitude abhorrent. Nobody seems to have respect for anyone anymore, especially when they happen to have a differing view on things. Instead of trying to know the person and understand why they have such a view, they simply attack them for being "stupid, or ignorant, or racist", and I really hate where this is going.

If you look at the actual policy positions, I think you will see that Democrats tend to at least offer a "how" regarding paying for their policy priorities.  Here's Bernie Sanders on "Medicare For All"  - https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/options-to-finance-medicare-for-all?inline=file

My issue with the Republicans on fiscal responsibility is that most of their ideas come from a concept that is just flat out wrong.  If you put more money in the hands of the wealthy, they will create jobs and that income will trickle down.  But when the tax bill passed last year, and companies received big tax cuts, the excess money ended up going to shareholders and not to labor.  https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/what-did-corporate-america-do-tax-break-buy-record-amounts-n886621

[Dick Allen]

11 minutes ago, Y2HH said:

I've shifted positions as I've aged -- be it from this forums discussions, or the quickly changing state of the world. I sometimes have bizarre views on things, depending on the subject. This is why I tend to not affiliate with any party. I believe in fiscal responsibility, both from the government and the individual, and I know this is not a priority or even a thing in either party platform, so I tend disagree quite heavily with both on this point. They often come up with ideas -- if you want to call them ideas -- but with no reasonable way to fund them.

I think this forum gets crapped on a lot because it's become quite divisive. I've seen quite a few posts as of late that come across as very much an "us vs them" attitude -- and I find this attitude abhorrent. Nobody seems to have respect for anyone anymore, especially when they happen to have a differing view on things. Instead of trying to know the person and understand why they have such a view, they simply attack them for being "stupid, or ignorant, or racist", and I really hate where this is going.

I do think when you are talking about Trump, it is an "us vs. them" situation. I usually vote democrat, but have voted for republicans in the past. Right now, I would never vote for a republican. That is a vote to leave Trump unchecked, because they are afraid.  The guy isn't even republican and he hijacked the republican party. 

Anywhere but the US, I would find it fascinating. Here, it's just scary.