Actual Values vs Party Values

[StrangeSox]

Conyers was also forced out

[caulfield12]

To ratify a treaty, two-thirds of the Senate must vote in favor. Our politics just does not allow for that kind of consensus. Perhaps the saddest example of this dysfunction came in 2012, when the Senate could not even ratify a treaty that simply translated the Americans with Disabilities Act into an international commitment. The treaty was negotiated and signed by Republican President George W. Bush, but even with former Republican presidential candidate and Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole returning to the Senate floor in his wheelchair to lend support, it garnered only 61 votes. Not bad for our hyper-partisan times, but six short of success. Only eight Republicans voted for it, and of them, only three are still in the Senate.

No reasonable observer can believe that two-thirds Senate majorities are possible on difficult and contentious issues. They are not even possible on easy ones, like celebrating U.S. leadership on disability rights and extending our best practices to the rest of the world.

 

politico.com

[Jack Parkman]

I have a question for you guys: You do know that Democratic Socialism is just a fancy word for capitalism with things like single payer healthcare, strong labor rights for workers, unemployment protection, 6 weeks vacation required by  law, stuff like that right? It isn't that radical. 

Go look at the Scandinavian countries and they know how to do it really well. 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Dick Allen]

6 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

I have a question for you guys: You do know that Democratic Socialism is just a fancy word for capitalism with things like single payer healthcare, strong labor rights for workers, unemployment protection, 6 weeks vacation required by  law, stuff like that right? It isn't that radical. 

Go look at the Scandinavian countries and they know how to do it really well. 

Socialism seems to be fine for the right when trade wars hurt some of their farmer voters and they give them a bailout. Just like everything else, the Trump partyhas no problem with anything where they benefit. What they don’t like is when darker skinned people get benefits. 

[Jerksticks]

9 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

I have a question for you guys: You do know that Democratic Socialism is just a fancy word for capitalism with things like single payer healthcare, strong labor rights for workers, unemployment protection, 6 weeks vacation required by  law, stuff like that right? It isn't that radical. 

Go look at the Scandinavian countries and they know how to do it really well. 

Norway has a population of like 5 Million all-white people who live in the same area in the same climate and have the same religion and really no need for capitalism   

 

 Not saying DemSoc wouldn’t work here Just pointing out that modeling anything after these tiny little pockets of white people is the beginning of every stupid idea ever proposed   

 

“Let’s be more like Sweden” should be a disqualifier for entry into a rational discussion   

 

I mean why aren’t we marching every day for more diversity in Scandinavia?!

 

 

[GoSox05]

16 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

Norway has a population of like 5 Million all-white people who live in the same area in the same climate and have the same religion and really no need for capitalism   

 

 Not saying DemSoc wouldn’t work here Just pointing out that modeling anything after these tiny little pockets of white people is the beginning of every stupid idea ever proposed   

 

“Let’s be more like Sweden” should be a disqualifier for entry into a rational discussion   

 

I mean why aren’t we marching every day for more diversity in Scandinavia?!

 

 

First it was, actually the Nordic model doesn't work there!

Then it was, actually it's not socialism, it's capitalism!

Now, it's uh, they have a small population!  Yeah that's it!

Also, it only works if you are white!

And the same religion!

[Jack Parkman]

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Socialism seems to be fine for the right when trade wars hurt some of their farmer voters and they give them a bailout. Just like everything else, the Trump partyhas no problem with anything where they benefit. What they don’t like is when darker skinned people get benefits. 

That is why it hasn't happened here. We were really close to it from 1946-1957. Then shit started to hit the fan(according to the white establishment)with the civil rights and women's movements, and they started to take it all away. 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Jerksticks]

13 minutes ago, GoSox05 said:

First it was, actually the Nordic model doesn't work there!

Then it was, actually it's not socialism, it's capitalism!

Now, it's uh, they have a small population!  Yeah that's it!

Also, it only works if you are white!

And the same religion!

You totally missed the point and then turned me into a bigot.  Thanks man!

[Jack Parkman]

34 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

Norway has a population of like 5 Million all-white people who live in the same area in the same climate and have the same religion and really no need for capitalism   

 

 Not saying DemSoc wouldn’t work here Just pointing out that modeling anything after these tiny little pockets of white people is the beginning of every stupid idea ever proposed   

 

“Let’s be more like Sweden” should be a disqualifier for entry into a rational discussion   

 

I mean why aren’t we marching every day for more diversity in Scandinavia?!

 

 

Nobody else wants to live there because the weather sucks for 9 months out of the year? 

 

[StrangeSox]

10 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

I have a question for you guys: You do know that Democratic Socialism is just a fancy word for capitalism with things like single payer healthcare, strong labor rights for workers, unemployment protection, 6 weeks vacation required by  law, stuff like that right? It isn't that radical. 

Go look at the Scandinavian countries and they know how to do it really well. 

I think you're more describing social democracy than democratic socialism, at least what the political theories actually are. How they're getting used in popular politics varies, but social democrats want Capitalism Lite with lots of public social welfare grafted on. Democratic Socialism is more revolutionary and advocates for stronger socialism i.e. worked-controlled means of production. It's much more anti-capitalist than SocDems are. 

Sanders and the New Deal FDR-style politics can be described as flavors of SocDem, but they aren't democratic socialists. I would guess, but have nothing to really back this up, that a lot of the uptick in popularity of DSA is actually from people that are more SocDem than outright socialists.

[StrangeSox]

15 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

You totally missed the point and then turned me into a bigot.  Thanks man!

Why do you need same:

• climate
• area
• religion
• race

in order to have universal health care, cheap/free college, etc.? Why does diversity along a variety of lines mean these programs are unworkable?

If we can't have a more functional national government, is the US as currently structured "too big to govern" and possibly should be split up? Or are large public welfare programs for geographically and ethnically diverse nations only possible in more authoritarian systems like China?

 

e: I'm not trying to be an ass here. I think they're seeing a rise of right-wing parties more opposed to social policies like that in Scandinavian and other Northern European countries as the number of non-white immigrants increases. 

Edited September 26, 2018 by StrangeSox

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, StrangeSox said:

I think you're more describing social democracy than democratic socialism, at least what the political theories actually are. How they're getting used in popular politics varies, but social democrats want Capitalism Lite with lots of public social welfare grafted on. Democratic Socialism is more revolutionary and advocates for stronger socialism i.e. worked-controlled means of production. It's much more anti-capitalist than SocDems are. 

Sanders and the New Deal FDR-style politics can be described as flavors of SocDem, but they aren't democratic socialists. I would guess, but have nothing to really back this up, that a lot of the uptick in popularity of DSA is actually from people that are more SocDem than outright socialists.

I'm ok with captialism lite social democracy, but in a perfect world, from my point of view, I'd advocate take over of top-down corporate structures in favor of worker Co-Ops. It works better, IMO. Break up the huge national companies and replace them with regional ones, that are run like a co-op. If democracy is the best form of government, then it should be the best form for work too. The big thing is that you have to keep the companies small enough to actually make it work, otherwise nothing gets done. 

Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism are the same thing. The government sets the rules for the economy, and if it works for everyone instead of only those at the top, then everyone is better off. I don't understand how those at the top think that squeezing the population how they are is going to last forever. Eventually, nobody is going to be able to afford their goods and services. What then? 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[StrangeSox]

They are not the same thing, though. There wouldn't be owners (capital class) at the top selling "their" goods and services under a fully socialist system. Under a social democratic system, capitalism is still the main engine of the economy. They're fundamentally different things.

Democratic socialists are distinguished from other socialist philosophies in that they still believe in a democratic society based on electoral politics and the consent of the governed rather than an enlightened socialist despot model or some sort of dictatorship of the proletariat.

I do think they get conflated a whole bunch these days, but they aren't the same.

Edited September 26, 2018 by StrangeSox

[Jack Parkman]

If you run a co-op and sell goods and services for a profit, is that Social Democracy or Democratic Socialism? Honest question. 

I'm learning something here. Bernie Sanders needs to tell people that he's not a socialist for this reason and maybe it will make the idiots less scared. 

From my perspective, if anything is sold for a profit no matter who is doing the selling....It isn't socialism. 

That means that the Nordic countries aren't socialist either. 

If socialism=government control of distribution of goods and services, and for non-profit, then there may only be one economy in the world left like that, and that is Cuba. I don't know enough about how Raul Castro is running Cuba to know if that is the case. 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

If you run a co-op and sell goods and services for a profit, is that Social Democracy or Democratic Socialism? Honest question. 

I'm learning something hear. Bernie Sanders needs to tell people that he's not a socialist for this reason and maybe it will make the idiots less scared. 

From my perspective, if anything is sold for a profit no matter who is doing the selling....It isn't socialism. 

That means that the Nordic countries aren't socialist either. 

If socialism=government control of distribution of goods and services, and for non-profit, then there may only be one economy in the world left like that, and that is Cuba. I don't know enough about how Raul Castro is running Cuba to know if that is the case. 

North Korea?  Vietnam is officially communist.  Venezuela in the last 10-15 years, at different points.  Bolivia is fairly close, under Morales.

Edited September 27, 2018 by caulfield12

[Jack Parkman]

8 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

North Korea?  Vietnam is officially communist.  Venezuela in the last 10-15 years, at different points.  Bolivia is fairly close, under Morales.

I thought Vietnam was more like China, I guess NK could be considered that too. NK is weird because nobody knows anything about them and KJU is nuts. Venezuela is kind of iffy. 

Edited September 27, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[StrangeSox]

11 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

If you run a co-op and sell goods and services for a profit, is that Social Democracy or Democratic Socialism? Honest question. 

I'm learning something hear. Bernie Sanders needs to tell people that he's not a socialist for this reason and maybe it will make the idiots less scared. 

From my perspective, if anything is sold for a profit no matter who is doing the selling....It isn't socialism. 

That means that the Nordic countries aren't socialist either. 

If socialism=government control of distribution of goods and services, and for non-profit, then there may only be one economy in the world left like that, and that is Cuba. I don't know enough about how Raul Castro is running Cuba to know if that is the case. 

Who is "profiting," who controls the business/enterprise, who makes the decision is a big distinction. Under a socialist model, the "owners" are the workers themselves. Profits go to those who input the labor, not those who own the capital. Ownership of capital would be dispersed and democratized under a true socialist system whereas under a social democracy, we still have private ownership of immense personal wealth and control of that capital that comes with it.

 

I think this article does a decent job of describing the differences. And yes, Norway etc. are social democracies, not socialist states.

https://jacobinmag.com/2018/08/democratic-socialism-social-democracy-nordic-countries

 

This is why I assume that the uptick in support for DSA and "socialist" candidates is more an uptick in support for social democracy rather than actual democratic socialism. Could be wrong, like I said, have no data to back that up, just a gut feeling.

Edited September 27, 2018 by StrangeSox

[GoSox05]

I think the lines are blurred now more than ever.  I think people are all moving in the same direction on the left, it's just that some people see Social Democracy as the end game and some people just see it as a stop along the way. 

I also think the argument can be made that a country like Norway is more socialist than you think it is.  It's more of a socialist country than Venezuela.   Matt Bruenig has done some stuff on Norway and it's state owned businesses and worker control.

Also, funny when Matt Bruenig went to Finland to debate members of their conservative party and ended up just agreeing on a lot of things.  Shows how are far right both our parties are.

[Dam8610]

On 9/27/2018 at 8:57 AM, GoSox05 said:

I think the lines are blurred now more than ever.  I think people are all moving in the same direction on the left, it's just that some people see Social Democracy as the end game and some people just see it as a stop along the way. 

I also think the argument can be made that a country like Norway is more socialist than you think it is.  It's more of a socialist country than Venezuela.   Matt Bruenig has done some stuff on Norway and it's state owned businesses and worker control.

Also, funny when Matt Bruenig went to Finland to debate members of their conservative party and ended up just agreeing on a lot of things.  Shows how are far right both our parties are.

It's possible to have a country where the conservative party is to the left of Democrats. Now we need to figure out how to import that.

[raBBit]

On 9/21/2018 at 10:08 AM, Y2HH said:

Hello, I haven't posted here in quite some time -- as when I did I'd tend to troll people and eventually get myself banned.  I still lurk around and read, but on it's surface, it seems the Buster has become increasingly intolerant in the wake of the Trump administration (to some degree for very good reasons), and I got me wondering how people actually felt, versus how their parties want them to feel on the spectrum of issues.

I'm often accused of being "far right", when nothing could be further from the truth, as I have certain beliefs that lean one way or another, and it got me wondering how others feel, while trying to take their party affiliations out of the equation.

For example, on a few quick issues, this is how *I* feel, regardless of what whatever party you want to lump me into says I should feel.

Note: Try to inject some reality into this. I'm not looking for descriptions of your perfect utopian society we cannot achieve. I'm looking for realistic thoughts and feelings (in a brief manner) on any subject you feel is important.

* Religion - I have little use for it, I think it breeds hate and intolerance more than it breeds love and forgiveness. That being said, I also have nothing against it, so long as you do it on your own time and don't shove it in my face and most importantly, keep it out of government.

* Abortion - A woman's body is hers and hers alone. I'm pro choice. This shouldn't even be a thing.

* LGBTQXXXXX Rights - This just doesn't even register with me as something that matter, especially to government. They're people like everyone else, leave them the fuck alone. One caveat I'll add to this is don't expect me to call you some whimsical pronoun you just invented and get offended when I don't. If I make a mistake in reference to you, simply correct me, but don't get in my face or yell at me as being intolerant or ignorant. Mistakes happen.

* Healthcare - This needs to be redone from the ground up -- that means from the overly expensive schooling, malpractice insurance needs, pharma, what people in this profession make, etc...up to and including insurance reforms. We can't just "attack insurance companies" and expect the rest of the industry to fix itself. If single payer is the way, we need to find a legitimate way to fund it, and not some kick the can down the road, "fuck it, our great-great-great grandchildren can all live in poverty paying off the shit we abused".

* Gun rights - While I'm not anti-gun, I'm also not a gun owner, and don't really care for them. I'd be fine without them, but we'd need a legitimate way to curb the flow of illegal firearms into the country from anywhere they can enter illegally. The biggest issue with creating a black market is someone tends to "fill the void". See Prohibition for reference.

* Military - We need to drastically cut spending here and stop being the world's police force.

* Free Speech - This is one area where the far left is beginning to annoy me. I'm not a fan of shouting people down and refusing to let them discuss their opinion. So long as a person isn't calling for the harm of others, let them talk, especially the ignorant. Because the more they talk -- the less people will listen to their ignorant shit. We need to return to well-reasoned discussions to stop the continuing division in this country, it's disturbing.

* Fiscal Responsibility - We need this. Badly The republicans preach it, but don't actually follow it, and the democrats tend to tout the pie in the sky solutions and don't care, either. And it seems nothing actually gets fixed despite how much more we spend.

* Immigration. I'm all for legal immigration, while I feel for those that illegally immigrate. If I was in their shoes, I'd more than likely do the same thing to do better for my family. This is also one area of this country where a lot of people annoy me. Spoiled Americans "vowing" to leave the country unless they get their way while others are almost killing themselves to come here to make a better life for themselves, I propose anyone that threatened to "leave" when Trump won, should trade places with an illegal immigrant, giving them their US citizenship in exchange for "leaving the worst place on the planet".

* Hollywood - I'm tired of the virtue signaling from Hollywood elites that act like they understand ordinary people or that they're "above the fray". More than half of those audiences (emmys, oscars) cheering "fuck trump" bullshit are some of the worst people in the world that have done some of the worst things to people. I believe people like Weinstein are just scratching the surface of that "holier than thou" elitist tribe.

-----

Anyway, that's just a few of my random thoughts since I've been away for a while. Please, if you decide to reply, be reasonable and don't attack me. ? 

Hey Y2HH,

Good to see you posting again.

I can't imagine this place construing you as far right when that is not the truth. That doesn't seem like the filibuster we all know. I appreciate your sentiment of tolerance. I too have experienced fear that my opinions will be attacked by a gang of posters. It's never good to feel unwelcome.

Anyways, I wanted to say that you suggested that I get a refurbished Macbook air about five years. I was lost at what to get as my computer and you put together a post explaining my options, pros and cons, driving factors, etc. I am currently typing on that same computer that performs just as well as it did some 59 months ago. It was a $700+ computer but has been worth every single penny. Other than my first car, that was the most expensive purchase of my life at that time and it has covered its value 5x over. So thank you for being so resourceful and taking the time to share your knowledge some time ago. 

[raBBit]

On 9/21/2018 at 10:08 AM, Y2HH said:

* Religion - I have little use for it, I think it breeds hate and intolerance more than it breeds love and forgiveness. That being said, I also have nothing against it, so long as you do it on your own time and don't shove it in my face and most importantly, keep it out of government.

-Yeah, religion not for me and has caused a lot of violence since the beginning of it. I hate the constant craving of religion in our government.

Grew up catholic outside of Chicago. My mom explained to me that when she was a kid they were taught that people who were different religions or who were gay would go hell and that it isn't like that anymore. I was so confused with Jesus's disciples spreading the bible and the tongue of fires and the Moses finding the ten commandments. These things just cant change 2000 years later. 

Then when I was in high school my priest was exposed as a pedophile. I remember talking with my parents about it and they told me both of their childhood priests were pedophiles. It was at that point I was utterly disgusted. I went on to college and got an Islamic Studies minor. That wasn't for me either. Less pedophilia but more open genital mutilation.

I think religion is good for its community and guidance for those who dont have a strong family life but that stuff is not for me.

* Abortion - A woman's body is hers and hers alone. I'm pro choice. This shouldn't even be a thing.

-Yup

* LGBTQXXXXX Rights - This just doesn't even register with me as something that matter, especially to government. They're people like everyone else, leave them the fuck alone. One caveat I'll add to this is don't expect me to call you some whimsical pronoun you just invented and get offended when I don't. If I make a mistake in reference to you, simply correct me, but don't get in my face or yell at me as being intolerant or ignorant. Mistakes happen.

-I don't understand why all these other groups are latching on with gay people. Gay people don't need a support group and they don't need to be grouped in with other groups. It's 2018 and we have the first President elected in favor of gay marriage. Gay people do not need to be segregated in anyway. I think their advocacy period should be over. The majority is in support of them and the minority is dying (literally). Now we let them live their lives. Not as a "gay man" or "gay women" just as men and women. They just want equality stop segregating them into groups because differentiating is moving away from equality. 

* Healthcare - This needs to be redone from the ground up -- that means from the overly expensive schooling, malpractice insurance needs, pharma, what people in this profession make, etc...up to and including insurance reforms. We can't just "attack insurance companies" and expect the rest of the industry to fix itself. If single payer is the way, we need to find a legitimate way to fund it, and not some kick the can down the road, "fuck it, our great-great-great grandchildren can all live in poverty paying off the shit we abused".

-The whole thing needs to be wiped. I wish everyone could have awesome coverage for free but I am also cursed with understanding business in the slightest. I do think these homogenous small countries with universal healthcare could be good immigration targets for people who want free care or can't afford it.

* Gun rights - While I'm not anti-gun, I'm also not a gun owner, and don't really care for them. I'd be fine without them, but we'd need a legitimate way to curb the flow of illegal firearms into the country from anywhere they can enter illegally. The biggest issue with creating a black market is someone tends to "fill the void". See Prohibition for reference.

-Not a big gun guy but they're not wiping the country of the ~350 million guns out there. If I have a family I will buy a gun and be a responsible gun owner to protect my family. I am for further restriction of assault weapons now that there's virtually no chance a militia could defend itself against the defense apparatus the US has accumulated.

* Military - We need to drastically cut spending here and stop being the world's police force.

-We need to cut budge by 90% and give ourselves a timeout from the Middle East for at least the rest of my life. 

* Free Speech - This is one area where the far left is beginning to annoy me. I'm not a fan of shouting people down and refusing to let them discuss their opinion. So long as a person isn't calling for the harm of others, let them talk, especially the ignorant. Because the more they talk -- the less people will listen to their ignorant shit. We need to return to well-reasoned discussions to stop the continuing division in this country, it's disturbing.

-Free speech is really, really important today. Censorship is rampant right now. What's happening on social media sites is scary. The government's part in all of it is sickening. I don't know we'll ever have a society where you can be dissident publicly and not be silenced for it. This close-minded thinking is fervent these past few years. It's a shame there are so many cowards out there who need to silence those who think differently than them.

* Fiscal Responsibility - We need this. Badly The republicans preach it, but don't actually follow it, and the democrats tend to tout the pie in the sky solutions and don't care, either. And it seems nothing actually gets fixed despite how much more we spend.

-Nothing changes until the military is cut drastically. It seems that our government is preparing for a world wide government. I am sure I will get shit for saying that but what other conclusion can you draw from the government having almost 1,000 bases in over 70 different countries. It's really unbelievable. 

* Immigration. I'm all for legal immigration, while I feel for those that illegally immigrate. If I was in their shoes, I'd more than likely do the same thing to do better for my family. This is also one area of this country where a lot of people annoy me. Spoiled Americans "vowing" to leave the country unless they get their way while others are almost killing themselves to come here to make a better life for themselves, I propose anyone that threatened to "leave" when Trump won, should trade places with an illegal immigrant, giving them their US citizenship in exchange for "leaving the worst place on the planet".

-Grew up working with illegal mexican immigrants and loved the shit out of them all. I worked at a few corporate restaurants and the kitchen (at least in Chicagoland) it primarily mexican guys who in my experience were more likely to be illegal than not. Every one on the staff and management is well aware they're illegal. No one cares. Corporations have loop holes.

However, I am not sure Mexican people should just jump the immigration line because of their proximity. That said, in their shoes I'd do the same thing. It's a very difficult situation. I do believe we should protect our borders and be a lawful country. 

* Hollywood - I'm tired of the virtue signaling from Hollywood elites that act like they understand ordinary people or that they're "above the fray". More than half of those audiences (emmys, oscars) cheering "fuck trump" bullshit are some of the worst people in the world that have done some of the worst things to people. I believe people like Weinstein are just scratching the surface of that "holier than thou" elitist tribe.

-On another note, there's 10+ late night hosts and they all have the exact same opinion on everything. Pairing that in with your Hollywood stuff, our youth and uneducated are basically being mind controlled. I can't tell you how many people I meet that don't understand an issue in the slightest but have their opinion made up on it. 

As for your post...

Edited October 17, 2018 by raBBit

[raBBit]

In before someone ignores the 7 things we agree on to focus on on thing we disagree on aha

[BigHurt3515]

1 hour ago, raBBit said:

 

 I appreciate your sentiment of tolerance. I too have experienced fear that my opinions will be attacked by a gang of posters. It's never good to feel unwelcome.

 

You aren't alone. Just because someone disagrees with how you view things doesn't make you a bad person. Not everyone in this country has the same views as the main demographic on this board. People in Missouri or Nebraska feel different than people in Chicago or LA or NY but that doesn't make those people wrong of disgusting people. Lumping everyone together in a group is infuriating. Yes I voted for Trump but that does not mean I agree with what he says on Twitter or in the media. Also doesn't make me a bigot or misogynistic, I am far from it. 

[Jerksticks]

I think the old cliche of missing the forest for the trees is very appropriate this last decade, and now more than ever.

 

A bunch of Americans are getting really really really mad at the trees that don’t matter.  These people would happily burn down the forest to save their tree.  In fact, people are now being elected to Congress like Cortez who will literally take your rights at gunpoint (burn down the forest), but it is okay because people like her talk about that fucking tree that is so important to you.  

[caulfield12]

When have government stormtroopers ever come in and confiscated legally~owned firearms?

On the other hand, There's a much higher probability of abortion rights being severely curtailed when a minority of citizens even believe in organized religion anymore.  Why doesn't the GoP also fund stable homes and a higher quality education for all those unwanted children, if they're so concered about the sanctity of life?  

Besides. you would think they would PREFER fewer (future) kids in America who will likely be voting against them...