James Shields

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

12 hours ago, GreenSox said:

I hear ya, but your plan depends on the assumption that Hahn would have come up with that package.  That's a tenuous assumption.  See Todd Frazier, a similar player (and several other of Hahn's July deals).

You can only go by what any competent GM would've done with an asset that needed to be traded. Your assumption is Hahn is not competent which is more tenuous that what I said. You cannot compare the Frazier , Robertson Kahnle deal to one player like Moustakas,

The Sox still owed around $23M for Frazier and Robertson, They got salary relief and minor leaguers and more cash later for Clippard. It was also about more tanking . It was earlier in the rebuild and the Sox were still stockpiling young talent and dumping salary. Rutherford might turn out to be very good.

Moose wasn't a salary dump. It would've been one good starting player with a lot of power at 3rd base for the best offer at a time in the rebuild where we need more close to ML ready (AA/AAA ) players than more lower level players.

You can't keep bringing up one deadline trade you weren't happy with. Those players were useless to the Sox . The money and players they got were not and half the board would probably disagree on if Hahn really messed up that trade.

[southsider2k5]

51 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

And what exactly are the chances of James Shields repeating this year's mediocre performance with another 200 innings next year? He'll be 37. I bet if he pitches, it will be a lot closer to the 117 he pitched in 2017. Time to move on and put that nightmare trade behind the organization. It isn't like he can be flipped for anything. This season proved that.  Someone like him, fine. But not him.

Who?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

You don't see any difference between signing a guy at a position where we should try someone out who is already in our system and signing a guy to fill a position where the guy  who should be filling it just went down for Tommy John surgery.

Edit: oh and just for reference I checked. B-R agrees with the ordering, Fangraphs WAR for each guy: Mike Moustakas 0.7, Matt Davidson 1.2, Yolmer Sanchez 1.6.

And yet somehow the dumb Milwaukee front office rather have Moustaskas .Go figure .I mean everyone would rather have a complete player than 2 incomplete players. Davidson useless to Milwaukee and Sanchez no power. Moose plays an important position competently and hits for power.

I checked bWar and Moose is 2.8 this year same as Yolmer and Davidson is 1.6 and again as a DH/!B/3B is redundant on the Sox  and useless to the future . As a light hitting 3rd base option Yolmer is also useless to the Sox but as a utility guy he is not. Those asssesments are the same as last year. They haven't changed at all.

Moose OPS+near 110 . Yolmer 90. Maybe if you combined Yolmer and Davidson you get a 3rd baseman as good as Moose but alas you can't do that. Neither one of them traded individually gets you as much as 1 Moustakas would've got you. If you want to rely sole;y on one stat from one source to make an argument go right ahead . You won't ever say you were wrong even though it's clear a minor investment by the Royal a division rival netted them 2 possible future pieces while the Sox dwiddled their thumbs.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

14 hours ago, Leonard Zelig said:

Can we find someone who has a chance of having some value at the trade deadline?  The past 2 seasons has shown Shields had none and I don't think that was entirely due to contract.

Apparently we have so many good young players on the Sox who need to play that we can't possibly want to add anyone of value  even when FA prices were lower than ever last season and might also be this off season. So I've been told. Shoot for the moon add Machado or Harper and hope they sign a stupid deal with no options and surround them with crap. Works for me.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

24 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Who?

I'd much rather bring Gio Gonzalez back than James Shields. He'll be more expensive, sure, but not considerably. He'll probably end up with a contract similar to what Cashner got last winter.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I'd much rather bring Gio Gonzalez back than James Shields. He'll be more expensive, sure, but not considerably. He'll probably end up with a contract similar to what Cashner got last winter.

I can't see the Sox bringing in a starter on a multi-year deal. I don't see Gonzalez taking a single year deal.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

I can't see the Sox bringing in a starter on a multi-year deal. I don't see Gonzalez taking a single year deal.

Why wouldn't the Sox consider a 2-year, $16MM deal for a guy like Gio? It's a minimal investment for a guy that gives you 175 innings/year with decent numbers.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Why wouldn't the Sox consider a 2-year, $16MM deal for a guy like Gio? It's a minimal investment for a guy that gives you 175 innings/year with decent numbers.

They aren't going to crowd their rotation anymore than the have to.  They need slots for 2019, but will play the 2019 season and hope that more of the pitching talent is ready to go then. 

Right now the Sox are looking at Lopez, Giolito, Rodon, and Covey as starters.  The need for 2019 is real.  I going to guess the Sox sign one real major league starter looking for a bounceback, along with a couple of MiLB deals with invites to spring training for guys to see if they can win slots, and if not pitch in Charlotte as depth.

When 2020 rolls around they get back Kopech, and they should have some combination of Cease and Dunning knocking on the door, assuming no one else goes crazy (such as Hansen going back to 2017 form).  They also have space fillers like Adams, Stephens, Fulmer, Danish, and Guerrero floating around if they need a filler arm, or as low likelihood breakouts.

If they get to the 2019 off season and this isn't in place, there will be more free agent pitchers to pick and choose from.  There is no good reason to block any more pitching slots than you have to with the pitching the Sox have in the pipeline. Go year by year and see what you need for the short term.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I'm sure if that's his final offer from the Sox we might not get him. We'll see what he gets . I just think it'll be $10M/yr . He's a good choice though. Maybe he won't get busted for substance abuse like Castillo did. Hahn still has the magic touch on FA signings so he'd probably end up hurt half the year.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

They aren't going to crowd their rotation anymore than the have to.  They need slots for 2019, but will play the 2019 season and hope that more of the pitching talent is ready to go then. 

Right now the Sox are looking at Lopez, Giolito, Rodon, and Covey as starters.  The need for 2019 is real.  I going to guess the Sox sign one real major league starter looking for a bounceback, along with a couple of MiLB deals with invites to spring training for guys to see if they can win slots, and if not pitch in Charlotte as depth.

When 2020 rolls around they get back Kopech, and they should have some combination of Cease and Dunning knocking on the door, assuming no one else goes crazy (such as Hansen going back to 2017 form).  They also have space fillers like Adams, Stephens, Fulmer, Danish, and Guerrero floating around if they need a filler arm, or as low likelihood breakouts.

If they get to the 2019 off season and this isn't in place, there will be more free agent pitchers to pick and choose from.  There is no good reason to block any more pitching slots than you have to with the pitching the Sox have in the pipeline. Go year by year and see what you need for the short term.

This is the same argument I heard last year. How do you know the 2020 staff will be overly crowded? Never hurts to have options. Besides, if you are worried about 2020, I'm sure Gio would make a fine long man or loogie out of the pen. Again, $8MM AAV over two years is peanuts. They spent nearly that between Holland and Gonzalez the last two years.

Edited September 26, 2018 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[southsider2k5]

Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

This is the same argument I heard last year. How do you know the 2020 staff will be overly crowded. Never hurts to have options. Besides, if you are worried about 2020, I'm sure Gio would make a fine long man or loogie out of the pen. Again, $8MM AAV over two years is peanuts. They spent nearly that between Holland and Gonzalez the last two years.

You have options for 2020 even if the minor leaguers fail.  By locking up slots in multi year deals, you actually have LESS slots to work with in the system, and less chance for guys to develop and move up the ladder.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I'm sure if that's his final offer from the Sox we might not get him. We'll see what he gets . I just think it'll be $10M/yr . He's a good choice though. Maybe he won't get busted for substance abuse like Castillo did. Hahn still has the magic touch on FA signings so he'd probably end up hurt half the year.

Think he'll do better than Cashner last winter? I don't know about that given his age and relatively average performance this year.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

You have options for 2020 even if the minor leaguers fail.  By locking up slots in multi year deals, you actually have LESS slots to work with in the system, and less chance for guys to develop and move up the ladder.

I don't see that being an issue over the next two years. I really don't. Hope I'm wrong.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

This is the same argument I heard last year. How do you know the 2020 staff will be overly crowded. Never hurts to have options. Besides, if you are worried about 2020, I'm sure Gio would make a fine long man or loogie out of the pen. Again, $8MM AAV over two years is peanuts. They spent nearly that between Holland and Gonzalez the last two years.

Yes 2018 was 2017 all over again only with no one who was any good to get more prospects . To top it all off Dunning and Hansen imploded in different ways as did a few others in the system who were high draft choices ( Fulmer, Burger)

 So we are just supposed to keep waiting without spending any money or signing anyone who might get a return. Wait for the injured to heal. Wait for guys who haven't even reached AA yet. Wait for Moncada , Giolito and others to get better while they burn their service time Wait to see which young relievers can be good even though as relievers that will surely fluctuate from year to year. Wait for Rodon and Abreu to get traded or show they are worth more than they were this year. Wait for all the good free agents to sign with better teams.

Were going to wait til 2025 and end up trading Eloy Jimenez and starting another rebuild all while Jerry and his heirs laugh all the way to the bank after selling the Sox and making a huge profit. After all real estate is his business and the Sox are just an asset to be sold at a profit.

[Greg Hibbard]

I just don't see the point of adding a player like Shields for 2019.

If Kopech hadn't been set back, there was an argument to be made that the White Sox could have been competitive in 2019 for the division.

However, without Kopech, we just don't have the talent to compete without spending a TON on FA to get there. We're not going to do that, as we have a lot of talent at several key positions that will be ready to evaluate at the ML level between 2020-2021, like Robert, Madrigal, Cease, and Dunning.

I think the smartest plan is to get innings for as many potential cusp starters as possible in 2019. We need to see who of 7-8 people we want to take into 2020.

[Balta1701]

45 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

And yet somehow the dumb Milwaukee front office rather have Moustaskas .Go figure .I mean everyone would rather have a complete player than 2 incomplete players. Davidson useless to Milwaukee and Sanchez no power. Moose plays an important position competently and hits for power.

I checked bWar and Moose is 2.8 this year same as Yolmer and Davidson is 1.6 and again as a DH/!B/3B is redundant on the Sox  and useless to the future . As a light hitting 3rd base option Yolmer is also useless to the Sox but as a utility guy he is not. Those asssesments are the same as last year. They haven't changed at all.

Moose OPS+near 110 . Yolmer 90. Maybe if you combined Yolmer and Davidson you get a 3rd baseman as good as Moose but alas you can't do that. Neither one of them traded individually gets you as much as 1 Moustakas would've got you. If you want to rely sole;y on one stat from one source to make an argument go right ahead . You won't ever say you were wrong even though it's clear a minor investment by the Royal a division rival netted them 2 possible future pieces while the Sox dwiddled their thumbs.

I might trade Davidson for the same package that the Brewers gave up for Moustakas because we do need to clear roster spots, I wouldn't trade Yolmer for that package. I certainly wouldn't trade Yolmer or Davidson and a 2nd round pick for what the Brewers gave up for Moustakas.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

6 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yes 2018 was 2017 all over again only with no one who was any good to get more prospects . To top it all off Dunning and Hansen imploded in different ways as did a few others in the system who were high draft choices ( Fulmer, Burger)

 So we are just supposed to keep waiting without spending any money or signing anyone who might get a return. Wait for the injured to heal. Wait for guys who haven't even reached AA yet. Wait for Moncada , Giolito and others to get better while they burn their service time Wait to see which young relievers can be good even though as relievers that will surely fluctuate from year to year. Wait for Rodon and Abreu to get traded or show they are worth more than they were this year. Wait for all the good free agents to sign with better teams.

Were going to wait til 2025 and end up trading Eloy Jimenez and starting another rebuild all while Jerry and his heirs laugh all the way to the bank after selling the Sox and making a huge profit. After all real estate is his business and the Sox are just an asset to be sold at a profit.

All while running a team payroll in the bottom 3 of MLB...Yet, signing an average to above average pitcher for 2 years at $8MM AAV eats up too many available slots in the pitching staff in 2020? I can't get behind that line of thinking. Not with the looks of the current 25-man and lack of appealing options currently sitting at the AAA level. There's going to be and have been plenty of available slots in the pitching staff for the last few years now. Don't see that changing within the next two years especially in light of the Kopech injury. 

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/2019/

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Greg Hibbard said:

I just don't see the point of adding a player like Shields for 2019.

If Kopech hadn't been set back, there was an argument to be made that the White Sox could have been competitive in 2019 for the division.

However, without Kopech, we just don't have the talent to compete without spending a TON on FA to get there. We're not going to do that, as we have a lot of talent at several key positions that will be ready to evaluate at the ML level between 2020-2021, like Robert, Madrigal, Cease, and Dunning.

I think the smartest plan is to get innings for as many potential cusp starters as possible in 2019. We need to see who of 7-8 people we want to take into 2020.

There just aren't guys who are on the cusp right now, certainly not enough to fill 2 rotation spots. If you don't have someone to fill that role at least part of the time, especially at the start of the year when maybe you're waiting on a AAA player to earn the spot, that's going to cascade through the bullpen and the rest of the rotation too. Not just with wins, but also high stress innings, more innings, maybe even more injury risk.

I'm no fan of Shields either but honestly I'd sign Shields and some other veteran just to be warm bodies, or 2 other veterans just to fill roles if we really are done with Shields, a-la Santiago this year even.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I might trade Davidson for the same package that the Brewers gave up for Moustakas because we do need to clear roster spots, I wouldn't trade Yolmer for that package. I certainly wouldn't trade Yolmer or Davidson and a 2nd round pick for what the Brewers gave up for Moustakas.

Yolmer is nothing more than a utility player. Davidson is just too flawed of a player. Too limited in many ways, especiallyy for a roster already carrying Abreu, Delmonico, and Palka.

[Eminor3rd]

The Sox will likely need someone like this, but it stands to reason they will essentially wait until February and sign the best of whoever is left as cheaply as possible. There are a million guys that could fill that role. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

15 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Think he'll do better than Cashner last winter? I don't know about that given his age and relatively average performance this year.

Like I said I think he's a good choice . His price is up in the air depending on how he does in the postseason if he even gets any starts. Also don't know if FA prices are still going to be down or not. I think one way or another the direction the Sox take this off season will show us if we keep waiting or hope for more reinforcements than our current roster and future major leaguers will provide.

 

[southsider2k5]

32 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yes 2018 was 2017 all over again only with no one who was any good to get more prospects . To top it all off Dunning and Hansen imploded in different ways as did a few others in the system who were high draft choices ( Fulmer, Burger)

 So we are just supposed to keep waiting without spending any money or signing anyone who might get a return. Wait for the injured to heal. Wait for guys who haven't even reached AA yet. Wait for Moncada , Giolito and others to get better while they burn their service time Wait to see which young relievers can be good even though as relievers that will surely fluctuate from year to year. Wait for Rodon and Abreu to get traded or show they are worth more than they were this year. Wait for all the good free agents to sign with better teams.

Were going to wait til 2025 and end up trading Eloy Jimenez and starting another rebuild all while Jerry and his heirs laugh all the way to the bank after selling the Sox and making a huge profit. After all real estate is his business and the Sox are just an asset to be sold at a profit.

If you are going to take the long game on the system sucking, there is quite literally no reason to spend money any time soon because this team is going to be awful for the next decade. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

If you are going to take the long game on the system sucking, there is quite literally no reason to spend money any time soon because this team is going to be awful for the next decade. 

If the goal is talent accumulation, why not sign guys on 1 and 2 year contracts with the intention of flipping them? If the team turns out to be good, that's great, because the FA signings are probably contributing to that success.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

16 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I might trade Davidson for the same package that the Brewers gave up for Moustakas because we do need to clear roster spots, I wouldn't trade Yolmer for that package. I certainly wouldn't trade Yolmer or Davidson and a 2nd round pick for what the Brewers gave up for Moustakas.

In your dreams you get the same package for Davidson. You can't trade a DH to the NL so that limits half the teams. Yolmer is what he is, a good bench piece. Nothing that we didn't already know about him. Davidson did improve his stock by taking more walks but he still cant play 3rd base  every day and he hasn't exactly shined in his time at 1st. Steele Walker will be lucky to have the same type of AAA season that Philips did this year and you know that considering the attrition rates on draft choices.

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

If the goal is talent accumulation, why not sign guys on 1 and 2 year contracts with the intention of flipping them? If the team turns out to be good, that's great, because the FA signings are probably contributing to that success.

Because a part of this is evaluating your own talent.  Looking at the minor league pitchers, there are open slots for 2019 for sure, but for 2020, you really want to have those slots available.  1 year deals, fine.  2+?  Not unless we are talking about Clayton Kershaw.