Sox have "flexibility" to add "long term pieces"

[Jose Abreu]

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I suppose there will be a lot of impact free agents in the next 3 years. Maybe we can get a list of who you consider to be an IFA so in case we don't sign one you can take that list of saved posts and apologize to them all .

I'm not saying we won't sign any, just saying it works both ways.

Don't even have to name players if you don't want to. Maybe just what you consider an impact contract.

Well just to make myself clear, it's only a few posts, none of them are yours, and they're all abrasive- stuff like "you'd have to be a complete idiot to think we have a shot at signing _____". 

Anyway, I guess I'd consider anything north of $125 million in total to be such a contract. I do believe we'll meet or exceed that total at some point in the next few years. 

[Jose Abreu]

12 minutes ago, LittleHurt05 said:

No evidence? We have 25+ years of evidence to support my claim. 

And how many times, in those 25+ years, have consensus elite position players reached free agency at age 26 or younger at a time where the White Sox coincidentally only have $9 million + arbitration deals and minimal buyouts committed in the future? I don't think past evidence is relevant this offseason because this offseason is just so rare, especially because there are two of the players I just described available. It's a sport-altering offseason.

[Eminor3rd]

1 hour ago, LittleHurt05 said:

No evidence? We have 25+ years of evidence to support my claim. 

You work for a baseball team so you will always side with ownership anyway, it's your job. 

 

Reinsdorf would never sign a free agent for more than he gave Albert Belle, until he did. Reinsdorf would never spend big money on unproven Latin American amateurs, until he did. Reinsdorf would never stomach a full-scale rebuild, until he did. All of that had 25 years of past precedent. 

The White Sox are undergoing a process theyve never undergone before. Past precedent just can’t apply in the same way it did before this rebuild. 

Also, your claim about my career/supporting ownership is completely ridiculous and even more baseless than anything else in this thread. It’s like saying “you work for McDonald’s, you have to support Wendy’s executives.” I’ve never met Jerry Reinsdorf. I have no opinion or knowledge of him or his personal tendencies. I’ve been frustrated a lot of times with this team’s direction over the last fifteen years or so, and I’d probably be beating the same drum as you if they’d spent the last two years doing the same half-assed Melky Cabrera bullshit as before. But they haven’t. They said they were going to bite the bullet and try something new for once, something that has recent, objective precedent for being an optimal strategy, and goddamn it they HAVE. They have actually followed through to this point, and they deserve the opportunity to finish what they’ve started. Based on what this team stated and how it’s acted over the past two seasons, I see absolutely zero evidence to suggest that ownership is impeding progress at all. If anything, these people seem more “on the same page” than at any other time I can remember off the top of my head. 

If this rebuild fails, they unquestionably need to clean out the front office. And if it fails because jerry refuses to provide the resources necessary for it to succeed, then I’ll be the next foot-long T-Longo-Marty43. But let’s give them an actual shot here. Their adherence to their own stated guidelines lately should absolutely buy them some benefit of the doubt, at least in terms of believing what Hahn is saying about spending money. 

[Jerksticks]

1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

Reinsdorf would never sign a free agent for more than he gave Albert Belle, until he did. Reinsdorf would never spend big money on unproven Latin American amateurs, until he did. Reinsdorf would never stomach a full-scale rebuild, until he did. All of that had 25 years of past precedent. 

The White Sox are undergoing a process theyve never undergone before. Past precedent just can’t apply in the same way it did before this rebuild. 

Also, your claim about my career/supporting ownership is completely ridiculous and even more baseless than anything else in this thread. It’s like saying “you work for McDonald’s, you have to support Wendy’s executives.” I’ve never met Jerry Reinsdorf. I have no opinion or knowledge of him or his personal tendencies. I’ve been frustrated a lot of times with this team’s direction over the last fifteen years or so, and I’d probably be beating the same drum as you if they’d spent the last two years doing the same half-assed Melky Cabrera bullshit as before. But they haven’t. They said they were going to bite the bullet and try something new for once, something that has recent, objective precedent for being an optimal strategy, and goddamn it they HAVE. They have actually followed through to this point, and they deserve the opportunity to finish what they’ve started. Based on what this team stated and how it’s acted over the past two seasons, I see absolutely zero evidence to suggest that ownership is impeding progress at all. If anything, these people seem more “on the same page” than at any other time I can remember off the top of my head. 

If this rebuild fails, they unquestionably need to clean out the front office. And if it fails because jerry refuses to provide the resources necessary for it to succeed, then I’ll be the next foot-long T-Longo-Marty43. But let’s give them an actual shot here. Their adherence to their own stated guidelines lately should absolutely buy them some benefit of the doubt, at least in terms of believing what Hahn is saying about spending money. 

Quality post.  I find it hard to have an opinion other than this.  I’m good at playing devil’s advocate with my own beliefs, but even after that, I still always end up feeling very similarly to this post. 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, Jose Abreu said:

Well just to make myself clear, it's only a few posts, none of them are yours, and they're all abrasive- stuff like "you'd have to be a complete idiot to think we have a shot at signing _____". 

Anyway, I guess I'd consider anything north of $125 million in total to be such a contract. I do believe we'll meet or exceed that total at some point in the next few years. 

I didn't think any of them were mine. I know what my stance has been. I highly doubt we have much of a shot this coming year on Machado or Harper nor Kershaw should he opt out and he has back problems.

Looking at the 2020 list I can only see a few names that might get that amount. Arenado, Perhaps Bogaerts or Gerrit Cole. Maybe JD Martinez if he opts out and he will be 32 then. Sale will be 31 and he has to stay healthy . Boston is sure to exercise their team option on him after this year and keep him for 2019.

Trout might be the only one in 2021.  Right now I'd put it at 50/50 the Sox sign anyone for the amount you said and I'm being generous with those odds.Depends on baseball inflation .

 

Edited September 28, 2018 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

9 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

I don't know.  I felt better about things pre Kopech injury, for sure.  I look across the AL, and I don't see a ton of teams outside of the Yankees and Red Sox, and wish I had their crop of young players more than the Sox.  

I also don't believe that the White Sox are universally considered a bottom of the barrel option for all FA like most Sox fans seems to believe.  

I felt way better about them before the Kopech injury. I'm still skeptical of the Sox minor league talent. The majority of it hasn't reached AA yet which most experts would agree is the big test. I do think Jimenez and Cease will probably be good but the guys at fangraphs think Cease is an RP. After that who really knows.

Our system might be a tad over rated . I think San Diego , Braves , Twins, Reds, Toronto maybe even the Yankees , Houston and Dodgers could all be rated higher than the Sox once Jimenez comes up and with Kopech on the sidelines. No doubt all the injuries not just to Kopech but to Dunning and Hansen, Burger, Adolfo and Roberts hurt a lot. Need a mostly injury free year and good  performance next year to restore faith in them.

[southsider2k5]

8 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

Reinsdorf would never sign a free agent for more than he gave Albert Belle, until he did. Reinsdorf would never spend big money on unproven Latin American amateurs, until he did. Reinsdorf would never stomach a full-scale rebuild, until he did. All of that had 25 years of past precedent. 

The White Sox are undergoing a process theyve never undergone before. Past precedent just can’t apply in the same way it did before this rebuild. 

Also, your claim about my career/supporting ownership is completely ridiculous and even more baseless than anything else in this thread. It’s like saying “you work for McDonald’s, you have to support Wendy’s executives.” I’ve never met Jerry Reinsdorf. I have no opinion or knowledge of him or his personal tendencies. I’ve been frustrated a lot of times with this team’s direction over the last fifteen years or so, and I’d probably be beating the same drum as you if they’d spent the last two years doing the same half-assed Melky Cabrera bullshit as before. But they haven’t. They said they were going to bite the bullet and try something new for once, something that has recent, objective precedent for being an optimal strategy, and goddamn it they HAVE. They have actually followed through to this point, and they deserve the opportunity to finish what they’ve started. Based on what this team stated and how it’s acted over the past two seasons, I see absolutely zero evidence to suggest that ownership is impeding progress at all. If anything, these people seem more “on the same page” than at any other time I can remember off the top of my head. 

If this rebuild fails, they unquestionably need to clean out the front office. And if it fails because jerry refuses to provide the resources necessary for it to succeed, then I’ll be the next foot-long T-Longo-Marty43. But let’s give them an actual shot here. Their adherence to their own stated guidelines lately should absolutely buy them some benefit of the doubt, at least in terms of believing what Hahn is saying about spending money. 

That is some full scale pwnership. 

[Special K]

15 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yelich isn't top caliber talent.

He's 7 WAR this year and likely NL MVP.  Very few with better numbers.  

[southsider2k5]

55 minutes ago, Special K said:

He's 7 WAR this year and likely NL MVP.  Very few with better numbers.  

I am still not willing to put him into the top tier based on this one year until he repeats this at least once.

[Eminor3rd]

9 hours ago, Jerksticks said:

Quality post.  I find it hard to have an opinion other than this.  I’m good at playing devil’s advocate with my own beliefs, but even after that, I still always end up feeling very similarly to this post. 

 

I think there’s a lot of frustration around here that comes from a whole summer of frustrating baseball from the White Sox. Really, really hard to watch most of the time. But it is the nature of this beast. This is a frustrating process, but we have to let these people do it right, or the suffering we have already experienced will all be for naught. We’ll get through this together @LittleHurt05

[LittleHurt05]

1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

I think there’s a lot of frustration around here that comes from a whole summer of frustrating baseball from the White Sox. Really, really hard to watch most of the time. But it is the nature of this beast. This is a frustrating process, but we have to let these people do it right, or the suffering we have already experienced will all be for naught. We’ll get through this together @LittleHurt05

Misery loves company!

Part of my problem has been that I've read way too much Joe Sheehan on Twitter, who has a very anti-owner sentiment.  While I was never the biggest Jerry fan in general, it has led me to question how limited team's resources truly are, and in turn more pessimism about the chances of Sox signing a Machado or Harper.

As a small business owner myself, I fully understand that a business needs to be profitable, however I don't think major sports franchises should be looked at the same as other businesses.  Your #1 goal should be to fill your trophy case with championships.  And the owners aren't depending on the teams to make a living, they are already very wealthy individuals from other lines of work.

[asindc]

19 hours ago, Special K said:

True.  And I'm not just yet (except for Fulmer, I'm writing him off).  But I would like to start seeing some serious positive signs.  

You see none?

[Y2Jimmy0]

12 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

Reinsdorf would never sign a free agent for more than he gave Albert Belle, until he did. Reinsdorf would never spend big money on unproven Latin American amateurs, until he did. Reinsdorf would never stomach a full-scale rebuild, until he did. All of that had 25 years of past precedent. 

The White Sox are undergoing a process theyve never undergone before. Past precedent just can’t apply in the same way it did before this rebuild. 

Also, your claim about my career/supporting ownership is completely ridiculous and even more baseless than anything else in this thread. It’s like saying “you work for McDonald’s, you have to support Wendy’s executives.” I’ve never met Jerry Reinsdorf. I have no opinion or knowledge of him or his personal tendencies. I’ve been frustrated a lot of times with this team’s direction over the last fifteen years or so, and I’d probably be beating the same drum as you if they’d spent the last two years doing the same half-assed Melky Cabrera bullshit as before. But they haven’t. They said they were going to bite the bullet and try something new for once, something that has recent, objective precedent for being an optimal strategy, and goddamn it they HAVE. They have actually followed through to this point, and they deserve the opportunity to finish what they’ve started. Based on what this team stated and how it’s acted over the past two seasons, I see absolutely zero evidence to suggest that ownership is impeding progress at all. If anything, these people seem more “on the same page” than at any other time I can remember off the top of my head. 

If this rebuild fails, they unquestionably need to clean out the front office. And if it fails because jerry refuses to provide the resources necessary for it to succeed, then I’ll be the next foot-long T-Longo-Marty43. But let’s give them an actual shot here. Their adherence to their own stated guidelines lately should absolutely buy them some benefit of the doubt, at least in terms of believing what Hahn is saying about spending money. 

Great post. FWIW, people in ticketing and marketing department expect a big run at Manny Machado from what some of them have been told. 

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Great post. FWIW, people in ticketing and marketing department expect a big run at Manny Machado from what some of them have been told. 

Reading the Rick Hahn lawyer-speak, this is exactly how I read it.  Using the checked boxes example, he is the one that checks all of the boxes that match up with Hahn's points.

[Y2Jimmy0]

16 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Reading the Rick Hahn lawyer-speak, this is exactly how I read it.  Using the checked boxes example, he is the one that checks all of the boxes that match up with Hahn's points.

Many on twitter yesterday saw his comments and were like "I guess that means no Macahdo/Harper". If you actually ingest what was said, I think it meant the opposite. 

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Many on twitter yesterday saw his comments and were like "I guess that means no Macahdo/Harper". If you actually ingest what was said, I think it meant the opposite. 

My interpretations were that he was saying that they guy we want might not be there when we are ready to compete, and if the guy you really want is there now, they  have the flexibility to sign them now.  Maybe if you read the comment in isolation, but if you read all of them and string them together, he is clearly saying they really like one of the top level players on the market, and they want to sign them, but can't predict if it will work out or not.

[Y2Jimmy0]

17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

My interpretations were that he was saying that they guy we want might not be there when we are ready to compete, and if the guy you really want is there now, they  have the flexibility to sign them now.  Maybe if you read the comment in isolation, but if you read all of them and string them together, he is clearly saying they really like one of the top level players on the market, and they want to sign them, but can't predict if it will work out or not.

100%. 

[Jake]

I think Reinsdorf as an owner sticks out not for a refusal to spend, but a major reluctance to repeat bad expenditures. For instance, I think he probably walked away from Albert Belle's tenure here thinking we lucked out when he opted out of a deal that would have been an albatross by its end. He also saw that the deal didn't bring us to the promised land like we hoped. Later, we set records by drafting and signing Joe Borchard. That really didn't work out and then Jerry goes back to wanting to stick to the spending norms in the draft, which had served us well in the past before a number of other organizations started profiting greatly in the draft by overpaying kids who weren't quite 1st rounders but wanted to be paid as such. When our season fell apart in 2016 after a couple years of signing and trading for veterans, I think Jerry became convinced that this strategy wasn't working anymore like it had 10 years before.

So it won't surprise me if we make a bold move or two in FA this offseason, but I also expect us not to do it again if it blows up in our face.

[ChiSox59]

15 hours ago, pcq said:

I am a diehard Soxman but the metrics don't place this org in a favorable light. Machado doesn't want to play in front of 12000 fans for a team that gets little national press. I suppose you might find a guy who wants to lead a rebuild but who would that be. We will have to make do with Jon Heyman rumors that the White Sox are darkhorse favorites to sign Machado or Harper. I can see it now. 

By this logic, there are like 5-6 teams in baseball that any FA would want to sign with.  I just don't buy it.  

[Jose Abreu]

56 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Many on twitter yesterday saw his comments and were like "I guess that means no Macahdo/Harper". If you actually ingest what was said, I think it meant the opposite. 

I like Write Sox, 108, Pnoles, etc. but they’ve been so pessimistic lately. I was glad to see you and Owen give your interpretations. 

[Jose Abreu]

1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Great post. FWIW, people in ticketing and marketing department expect a big run at Manny Machado from what some of them have been told. 

This is consistent with a tidbit I heard too. Even if we don’t get him, I think many will be surprised at how much we offer (if it leaks). 

[maggsmaggs]

1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said:

This is consistent with a tidbit I heard too. Even if we don’t get him, I think many will be surprised at how much we offer (if it leaks). 

I don't think we will get him, but I don't think it will be from a lack of trying. I think the Sox will offer a lot but fall short ala A-Rod years ago. Unfortunately, there are other teams that will be bidding that have a lot more financial resources (Yanks, Dodgers, Phillies).

[Y2Jimmy0]

2 minutes ago, maggsmaggs said:

I don't think we will get him, but I don't think it will be from a lack of trying. I think the Sox will offer a lot but fall short ala A-Rod years ago. Unfortunately, there are other teams that will be bidding that have a lot more financial resources (Yanks, Dodgers, Phillies).

Nobody has more $$ to spend than the White Sox right now though. He may decide he'd like to play elsewhere but there's really no excuse to be outbid if they have to have him. 

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, maggsmaggs said:

I don't think we will get him, but I don't think it will be from a lack of trying. I think the Sox will offer a lot but fall short ala A-Rod years ago. Unfortunately, there are other teams that will be bidding that have a lot more financial resources (Yanks, Dodgers, Phillies).

Everything being said, I do see this as the most likely scenario.

[Jose Abreu]

7 minutes ago, maggsmaggs said:

I don't think we will get him, but I don't think it will be from a lack of trying. I think the Sox will offer a lot but fall short ala A-Rod years ago. Unfortunately, there are other teams that will be bidding that have a lot more financial resources (Yanks, Dodgers, Phillies).

I think the Phillies are probably the top contender. But the Yankees and Dodgers have luxury tax concerns that might cause them to hold back