Sox have "flexibility" to add "long term pieces"

[Special K]

On 9/28/2018 at 4:56 PM, Tony said:

Please describe in detail your rebuild plan. 

 

Thanks

Obviously, difficult to layout a rebuild plan when you are not privy to what players are/were available when trade deals were made and also not privy to scouting information on players drafted.  (For the same reason, easy to criticize decisions that were made.)  But generally speaking, I'd say improvements on the rebuild that could be made are draft better and make better trades.  

As of now, disappointed with Sale trade.  Moncada needs to become an above average player and Kopech needs to be a very good pitcher for that trade to work out.  Otherwise, you traded a hall of fame pitcher on an incredible deal for not much.  Not saying moving Sale wasn't the right call, I just begin to question the return they got and if something better was out there.  

Eaton is another example.  Lopez has been great, but I imagine he is a pleasant surprise in that deal but Giolito clearly a disappointment.  

Drafting has left much to be desired as well.  Fulmer is bad and was a wasted pick.  Not sure how Burger will turn out.  Collins has been okay.  

Rebuilding is fine, but I am beginning to scrutinize those doing it, particularly when we haven't seen a playoff berth in a decade under this regime.  

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Well, when Palka is in the lineup, Davidson is on the bench as a backup 1B/3B and when Palka is on the bench you have a backup corner OF. So you assume a 4-man bench would be: backup catcher, one of Palka/Davidson, hopefully Yolmer (IF), and then a 4th OF who can play CF. They have been going with a short bench the last 3-4 years though and only carrying 3 bench players.

 

Edit: also keep in mind that it doesn't need to be a straight platoon. You could see Eloy, Abreu, whoever is at 3B, whoever is in RF get some rest at the DH spot.

Edited October 1, 2018 by soxfan2014

[southsider2k5]

40 minutes ago, Special K said:

Obviously, difficult to layout a rebuild plan when you are not privy to what players are/were available when trade deals were made and also not privy to scouting information on players drafted.  (For the same reason, easy to criticize decisions that were made.)  But generally speaking, I'd say improvements on the rebuild that could be made are draft better and make better trades.  

As of now, disappointed with Sale trade.  Moncada needs to become an above average player and Kopech needs to be a very good pitcher for that trade to work out.  Otherwise, you traded a hall of fame pitcher on an incredible deal for not much.  Not saying moving Sale wasn't the right call, I just begin to question the return they got and if something better was out there.  

Eaton is another example.  Lopez has been great, but I imagine he is a pleasant surprise in that deal but Giolito clearly a disappointment.  

Drafting has left much to be desired as well.  Fulmer is bad and was a wasted pick.  Not sure how Burger will turn out.  Collins has been okay.  

Rebuilding is fine, but I am beginning to scrutinize those doing it, particularly when we haven't seen a playoff berth in a decade under this regime.  

 

Yet, Tim Anderson is here and starting at SS, fully drafted and developed by the White Sox. 

Yolmer Sanchez is here signed out of Latin America fully signed and developed by the White Sox, as were Adam Engel, and Kevan Smith.

Out in the pen, Nate Jones, Ian Hamilton, Aaron Bummer, Hector Santiago, Jace Fry,

In the rotation Carlos Rodon.

That is without getting to guys the Sox identified as minor leaguers and brought into the system, finished and are contributing.

[maggsmaggs]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yet, Tim Anderson is here and starting at SS, fully drafted and developed by the White Sox. 

Yolmer Sanchez is here signed out of Latin America fully signed and developed by the White Sox, as were Adam Engel, and Kevan Smith.

Out in the pen, Nate Jones, Ian Hamilton, Aaron Bummer, Hector Santiago, Jace Fry,

In the rotation Carlos Rodon.

That is without getting to guys the Sox identified as minor leaguers and brought into the system, finished and are contributing.

I don't think there is any way to evaluate the Sox drafting and development and call it a success.

[Special K]

10 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yet, Tim Anderson is here and starting at SS, fully drafted and developed by the White Sox. 

Yolmer Sanchez is here signed out of Latin America fully signed and developed by the White Sox, as were Adam Engel, and Kevan Smith.

Out in the pen, Nate Jones, Ian Hamilton, Aaron Bummer, Hector Santiago, Jace Fry,

In the rotation Carlos Rodon.

That is without getting to guys the Sox identified as minor leaguers and brought into the system, finished and are contributing.

Respectfully, Yolmer Sanchez, Adam Engel and Kevan Smith are average to below average players.  If those are the players were touting as draft success, it's not very good.  

TA has been a nice player and a good pick but the FO should get it right more often than not if we want the type of success we're hoping for.  

So not all bad, but my point is there needs to be much more improvement.  

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, Special K said:

Respectfully, Yolmer Sanchez, Adam Engel and Kevan Smith are average to below average players.  If those are the players were touting as draft success, it's not very good.  

TA has been a nice player and a good pick but the FO should get it right more often than not if we want the type of success we're hoping for.  

So not all bad, but my point is there needs to be much more improvement.  

if you look at the players, you will see there HAS been improvement.  That was my point.  That is also leaving out the Chris Sale's of the world who got us a good chunk of our top prospect lists.

[Special K]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

if you look at the players, you will see there HAS been improvement.  That was my point.  That is also leaving out the Chris Sale's of the world who got us a good chunk of our top prospect lists.

Fair point.  I do like Madrigal pick too.  Hopefully, we get another nice pickup this year and I hope it's another position player.  Pick enough of them and some of them will start to pan out.  

[bmags]

17 hours ago, GreenSox said:

If they are going to fill the team with 2nd team free agents, there is no reason to have tried to rebuild in the first place. That's exactly what they did in 2015 with FA signings and ouigi board trades.   And it would be worse this time because at least then there were 3 studs to build around.   And with those 3 studs, the results were ugly.

Machado or Harper, fine.  But forget the 2nd tier guys - they aren't cornerstone players and the Sox have 0 cornerstone players.

I said nothing about filling the team with them.

[caulfield12]

46 minutes ago, maggsmaggs said:

I don't think there is any way to evaluate the Sox drafting and development and call it a success.

 

52 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yet, Tim Anderson is here and starting at SS, fully drafted and developed by the White Sox. 

Yolmer Sanchez is here signed out of Latin America fully signed and developed by the White Sox, as were Adam Engel, and Kevan Smith.

Out in the pen, Nate Jones, Ian Hamilton, Aaron Bummer, Hector Santiago, Jace Fry,

In the rotation Carlos Rodon.

That is without getting to guys the Sox identified as minor leaguers and brought into the system, finished and are contributing.

I’d feel better if we could take credit for Jose Martinez, lol.

Moncada’s 2018 was outWARed by Yolmer just last year.  

Better to take some credit for Narvaez compared to Smith, or even Tyler Flowers.

The only bullpen guy on that list with any trade value at the moment is probably Fry, but how long will someone with multiple TJ’s hold up?

Who else could the White Sox have taken over Rodon?  Schwarber?  Nola?  They’re just lucky they didn’t end up with Aiken or Kolek.  And would anyone consider Rodon a huge success story at this point in his Sox career?   For all we know, Dylan Covey will end up with more wins with the White Sox from 2019 onwards.

 

To summarize, about the only players (outside of Anderson/Moncada) that look pretty solid as the year ends are Palka, Narvaez and Lopez, maybe Fry...of course, we all saw what happened with Delmonico, so Palka and Omar will need to repeat in 2019.

IMO, you can’t even come close to beating Lindor, Jose Ramirez and the ghost of Indians’ staffs past unless Eloy Jimenez is Megatron Squared.

[pcq]

3 hours ago, Special K said:

Respectfully, Yolmer Sanchez, Adam Engel and Kevan Smith are average to below average players.  If those are the players were touting as draft success, it's not very good.  

TA has been a nice player and a good pick but the FO should get it right more often than not if we want the type of success we're hoping for.  

So not all bad, but my point is there needs to be much more improvement.  

Anderson has improved but I would just as soon give Rondon a look over Sanchez. 

[Dam8610]

On 10/1/2018 at 10:56 AM, caulfield12 said:

 

I’d feel better if we could take credit for Jose Martinez, lol.

Moncada’s 2018 was outWARed by Yolmer just last year.  

Better to take some credit for Narvaez compared to Smith, or even Tyler Flowers.

The only bullpen guy on that list with any trade value at the moment is probably Fry, but how long will someone with multiple TJ’s hold up?

Who else could the White Sox have taken over Rodon?  Schwarber?  Nola?  They’re just lucky they didn’t end up with Aiken or Kolek.  And would anyone consider Rodon a huge success story at this point in his Sox career?   For all we know, Dylan Covey will end up with more wins with the White Sox from 2019 onwards.

 

To summarize, about the only players (outside of Anderson/Moncada) that look pretty solid as the year ends are Palka, Narvaez and Lopez, maybe Fry...of course, we all saw what happened with Delmonico, so Palka and Omar will need to repeat in 2019.

IMO, you can’t even come close to beating Lindor, Jose Ramirez and the ghost of Indians’ staffs past unless Eloy Jimenez is Megatron Squared.

Eloy Jimenez may be Megatron Squared. Also, Moncada's age 23 season was 2.1 WAR. There's still room for growth with both he and Anderson, as well as most of the pitching staff. I'd like to see them buy a cornerstone player like Machado, but let's not discount the possibility of internal improvement, which is still very much a very real possibility.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 10/7/2018 at 12:11 PM, Dam8610 said:

Eloy Jimenez may be Megatron Squared. Also, Moncada's age 23 season was 2.1 WAR. There's still room for growth with both he and Anderson, as well as most of the pitching staff. I'd like to see them buy a cornerstone player like Machado, but let's not discount the possibility of internal improvement, which is still very much a very real possibility.

Who do you see internally improving besides maybe Anderson and Moncada. I don't usually like to judge players but we have too many guys who are who we thought they were even if Davidson has improved little by little he is still not very useful if he can't play 3rd or 1st close to full time. Most have had a fair shake time to let most of them go one way or another.

 

I'm talking position players . I think Gio and Lopez and Rodon all need more time even if Rodon is clearly nearing the end of his Sox time . One good  season from him and he's trade bait.

Edited October 8, 2018 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Dam8610]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Who do you see internally improving besides maybe Anderson and Moncada. I don't usually like to judge players but we have too many guys who are who we thought they were even if Davidson has improved little by little he is still not very useful if he can't play 3rd or 1st close to full time. Most have had a fair shake time to let most of them go one way or another.

Besides the two aforementioned players, you have Rodon, Lopez, Giolito, a bunch of young players in the bullpen, and Kopech when he returns. Other than that, it's mostly looking for players to develop quickly and come up from the minor leagues. I in no way feel as though 2019 will be a competitive year (unless the Sox spend about $150 million AAV on the FA market), but I do think a lot of players could improve a great deal in 2019, and that that, combined with normal or better progression from most of the team's top prospects, could lead to a much better 2020 and beyond.

Also, let's not underestimate the impact that Moncada turning into the player scouts thought he would be would have on this whole thing.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

5 hours ago, Dam8610 said:

Besides the two aforementioned players, you have Rodon, Lopez, Giolito, a bunch of young players in the bullpen, and Kopech when he returns. Other than that, it's mostly looking for players to develop quickly and come up from the minor leagues. I in no way feel as though 2019 will be a competitive year (unless the Sox spend about $150 million AAV on the FA market), but I do think a lot of players could improve a great deal in 2019, and that that, combined with normal or better progression from most of the team's top prospects, could lead to a much better 2020 and beyond.

Also, let's not underestimate the impact that Moncada turning into the player scouts thought he would be would have on this whole thing.

So basically we agree since you answered slightly before I edited my post to exclude pitchers .

[wrathofhahn]

Are we finally out o the penalty box and able to sign some good young cuban and dominican boys? I would much rather spend 40-50 million on that on a bunch of fools gold like Machado or Harper both of which clubs were nowhere near close to making the playoffs with them n the roster. This team needs multiple players it has holes everywhere signing either of those guys would be stupid and probably result in further dumb decisions down the line. 

[Balta1701]

Just now, wrathofhahn said:

Are we finally out o the penalty box and able to sign some good young cuban and dominican boys? I would much rather spend 40-50 million on that on a bunch of fools gold like Machado or Harper both of which clubs were nowhere near close to making the playoffs with them n the roster. This team needs multiple players it has holes everywhere signing either of those guys would be stupid and probably result in further dumb decisions down the line. 

Doing a single $40/$50 million signing would put you back into that penalty box for the next 2 years. 

[wrathofhahn]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

Doing a single $40/$50 million signing would put you back into that penalty box for the next 2 years. 

I was speaking total but yeah it would be worth it that is what the dodgers and the teams that spend big in IFA. They snap up all the talent then go in the penalty box for two years. Which is what we should do.

[Whisox05]

3 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

Are we finally out o the penalty box and able to sign some good young cuban and dominican boys? I would much rather spend 40-50 million on that on a bunch of fools gold like Machado or Harper both of which clubs were nowhere near close to making the playoffs with them n the roster. This team needs multiple players it has holes everywhere signing either of those guys would be stupid and probably result in further dumb decisions down the line. 

So is Mike trout fools gold too because his team wasn't close to making the playoffs? 

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

Are we finally out o the penalty box and able to sign some good young cuban and dominican boys? I would much rather spend 40-50 million on that on a bunch of fools gold like Machado or Harper both of which clubs were nowhere near close to making the playoffs with them n the roster. This team needs multiple players it has holes everywhere signing either of those guys would be stupid and probably result in further dumb decisions down the line. 

July 2, 2019 the White Sox operate under full rights in Latin America again.  Also no one can spend "40-50 million" in the under 25 year old Latin American crowd ever again.  The rules changed a couple of seasons ago. 

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

July 2, 2019 the White Sox operate under full rights in Latin America again.  Also no one can spend "40-50 million" in the under 25 year old Latin American crowd ever again.  The rules changed a couple of seasons ago. 

Came here to say the same thing. Thanks.

[wrathofhahn]

The plan for me anyways would be to sign a whole bunch of IFA. Trade Abreu and Garcia even if you don't get a ton back. Then sign some veteran guys to shorterm deals looking to have bounceback seasons. Maybe take on a body or two like we did with Soria via trade.

Maybe you get some surprises these veterans are going for nothing via FA now so it's no risk we have the spots no reason to waste them on a bunch of youngish 4A guys who can't play then when the midseason rolls around if they are playing well we can move them at the deadline or just cut our losses and call up some of the guys in the minor leagues.

I would have liked to seen us do more of this last year. After next year we should have a much better idea where the holes are. I suspect we'll be in the market for pitching.

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, wrathofhahn said:

The plan for me anyways would be to sign a whole bunch of IFA. Trade Abreu and Garcia even if you don't get a ton back. Then sign some veteran guys to shorterm deals looking to have bounceback seasons. Maybe take on a body or two like we did with Soria via trade.

Maybe you get some surprises these veterans are going for nothing via FA now so it's no risk we have the spots no reason to waste them on a bunch of youngish 4A guys who can't play then when the midseason rolls around if they are playing well we can move them at the deadline or just cut our losses and call up some of the guys in the minor leagues.

I would have liked to seen us do more of this last year. After next year we should have a much better idea where the holes are. I suspect we'll be in the market for pitching.

The Sox got just under $5 million this year (of which they couldn't go over $300k for any one kid) and $4.75 million the year before with the same signing restrictions.  They have been using the cap space they can't spend to bring in players they can get through trades.  They have signed who they can, and it is worth noting one of their signings for this year failed a drug test late in the process.

[Bob Sacamano]

16 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

The plan for me anyways would be to sign a whole bunch of IFA. Trade Abreu and Garcia even if you don't get a ton back. Then sign some veteran guys to shorterm deals looking to have bounceback seasons. Maybe take on a body or two like we did with Soria via trade.

Maybe you get some surprises these veterans are going for nothing via FA now so it's no risk we have the spots no reason to waste them on a bunch of youngish 4A guys who can't play then when the midseason rolls around if they are playing well we can move them at the deadline or just cut our losses and call up some of the guys in the minor leagues.

I would have liked to seen us do more of this last year. After next year we should have a much better idea where the holes are. I suspect we'll be in the market for pitching.

I've been saying this about Donaldson. IF they go after Machado and IF they don't sign him, I'm cool with him signing a pillow contract with the Sox on a one-year deal. Also wouldn't cost a draft pick like Moustakas would have last year.

Edited October 10, 2018 by soxfan2014

[Dam8610]

2 hours ago, soxfan2014 said:

I've been saying this about Donaldson. IF they go after Machado and IF they don't sign him, I'm cool with him signing a pillow contract with the Sox on a one-year deal. Also wouldn't cost a draft pick like Moustakas would have last year.

Donaldson to Arenado?

[Bob Sacamano]

4 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

Donaldson to Arenado?

Fine with me!