Dear FO: Harper VS Machado, Soxtalk Will Help You Decide

[ptatc]

6 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said:

This isn't what did it for me. His hustle (or lack thereof) and general attitude is what has changed my mind. He 100% seems like the type of player who will just coast after getting the big pay day, especially if Dodgers win the World Series this year.

This is where I'm at. I don't think they should trust him with that contract.  

[southsider2k5]

55 minutes ago, Baker said:

Las Vegas has some odds on who will sign Machado/ Harper. The top 10 were listed and the Sox weren’t on either list. Texas/Giants were 10th at 5% chance for either. Probably less than 1% chance either one comes here. I hope some team grabs them soon so we can move on. 

Feel free to do so.  Personally I am going to wait and see what happens.

[Jack Parkman]

On 10/18/2018 at 11:08 AM, Lillian said:

That is precisely why I said; "over the next two years". If we are not on the verge of contention, within that time frame, this rebuild will have failed. My point is that I would rather use the financial resources to acquire, or retain, 2 or 3 players, for a shorter period of time, rather than one player, on a 10 year commitment.

Then it has already failed. There is no chance for them to be competitive in 2019 or 2020 anymore. 

[Jerksticks]

Harper & Eloy in the corners is waaaaay better than Avi & Delmonico

[LittleHurt05]

 

 

[Lillian]

The Manny Machado saga continues and I like this jerk less, every day. I will be disappointed if the Sox even offer him the kind of contract, which has been speculated. This guy seems to have a questionable character:

Putting aside the controversial hard slides, in an effort to break up double plays, which after all, used to always be part of baseball, there are plenty of instances where this creep is revealing his character.

First, he says he's not the kind of guy who runs hard on ground outs, insisting that he's not the "Johnny Hustle" type, as though to disparage guys who do hustle. He might have done himself a favor by admitting that it's one of his faults and that he hopes to improve that part of his game, in the future. It's as though he is saying; "Hey, I'm great and that's who I am, so take it, or leave it, I'm not going to change". I still have trouble seeing how Renteria would reconcile the team spending a fortune, to bring in a guy who shamelessly proclaims that he does not intend to ever be a guy who runs hard on ground outs, with the team's philosophy of demanding that everyone do precisely that.

Then, he kicks Aguilar and doesn't seems to be sorry. He certainly didn't' demonstrate any contrition. He could have simply said; "It was an accident, and I'm just glad that no one was hurt". Instead, he says; "call it what you want". What the Hell is that supposed to mean? Ok, the League called it and slapped him with a fine.

And most recently, when the Milwaukee fans booed him, he turns to them and grabs his genitals. Real classy. 

This guy is a real heel, in the tradition of Pro Wrestling. No thanks, I don't want to have to root for a player like that. I hope the front office will use the franchise's vast financial resources to acquire a little more likable person. You know, it's already inherently difficult to relate to players who make the kind of money they do, playing a game, that most guys would play for nothing, if they just had the chance. Trying to relate to a player, with Machado's attitude, just makes it all that much more difficult.

I understand that for some, the only thing that matters is winning. "Who cares what kind of people the players are, as long as they are the champions"? The problem with that approach is that fans have to live with many seasons, in which their favorite team is not the World Champion. How do we deal with those seasons, if the players are not likable people?

[iWiN4PreP]

56 minutes ago, Lillian said:

The Manny Machado saga continues and I like this jerk less, every day. I will be disappointed if the Sox even offer him the kind of contract, which has been speculated. This guy seems to have a questionable character:

Putting aside the controversial hard slides, in an effort to break up double plays, which after all, used to always be part of baseball, there are plenty of instances where this creep is revealing his character.

First, he says he's not the kind of guy who runs hard on ground outs, insisting that he's not the "Johnny Hustle" type, as though to disparage guys who do hustle. He might have done himself a favor by admitting that it's one of his faults and that he hopes to improve that part of his game, in the future. It's as though he is saying; "Hey, I'm great and that's who I am, so take it, or leave it, I'm not going to change". I still have trouble seeing how Renteria would reconcile the team spending a fortune, to bring in a guy who shamelessly proclaims that he does not intend to ever be a guy who runs hard on ground outs, with the team's philosophy of demanding that everyone do precisely that.

Then, he kicks Aguilar and doesn't seems to be sorry. He certainly didn't' demonstrate any contrition. He could have simply said; "It was an accident, and I'm just glad that no one was hurt". Instead, he says; "call it what you want". What the Hell is that supposed to mean? Ok, the League called it and slapped him with a fine.

And most recently, when the Milwaukee fans booed him, he turns to them and grabs his genitals. Real classy. 

This guy is a real heel, in the tradition of Pro Wrestling. No thanks, I don't want to have to root for a player like that. I hope the front office will use the franchise's vast financial resources to acquire a little more likable person. You know, it's already inherently difficult to relate to players who make the kind of money they do, playing a game, that most guys would play for nothing, if they just had the chance. Trying to relate to a player, with Machado's attitude, just makes it all that much more difficult.

I understand that for some, the only thing that matters is winning. "Who cares what kind of people the players are, as long as they are the champions"? The problem with that approach is that fans have to live with many seasons, in which their favorite team is not the World Champion. How do we deal with those seasons, if the players are not likable people?

Great post and you won me over. Machado's attitude has been questionable to me for a while now. I don't want ANY part of it now. Give me Harper all day. 

[Dick Allen]

If I am not writing the checks and the choice is asshole Machado or great guy Yolmer playing 3B, it’s a pretty easy call. I want to see wins, and I don’t hang out with these guys. If he were a wife beater or something along those lines, it would be a different story. But he is certainly not as disruptive as an Albert Belle.

The hustle thing would be a concern. The other stuff is no big deal when he is on your team. AJP loathed, becomes beloved White Sox. Bob Probert, big time asshole, becomes beloved Blackhawk. Sammy Sosa, beloved Cub. Dennis Rodman, beloved Bull. Machado’s rep isn’t half as bad as most of these guys. 

[Chicago White Sox]

The answer is whichever one can be convinced to take a contract with a first opt-out after year 4.  The Indians will start losing a big chunk of their core to free agency in the next few years (Kluber after 2019, Carrasco after 2020, Lindor & Bauer after 2021).  Our window to be the dominant team in the division opens up in 2021 IMO.  That doesn’t mean 2020 is off the table necessarily, but a lot of things would have to go right for us (we are due for some good luck though).  Regardless, all our moves of substance in the near-term should keep 2021 in mind.

Machado or Harper under control for at least four years fits the bill.  Even if we lose them after that point, having either one to kick off our window for the first two years would be huge.  At first pass Machado is obviously the better fit, but I do think there are intangible benefits to adding one of the biggest “name” guys in the sport in Harper.  And realistically if you believe in Madrigal, the odds are highly likely Moncada gets moved to 3B or the OF.  The overall outcome may not be that different by adding Harper.

Again, the key here is getting at least four years of team control.  That may sound unlikely, but if we create a nice bump in pay in year 4, that may offset the benefit of potentially opting-out a year earlier.  The team will no doubt need to be creative to win either one of these sweepstakes and that’s on top of offering as much money as everyone.  All that being said, not pursing these guys would be crazy IMO.  Young, elite positional talents don’t hit the market vey often and our best bet of landing one is to simply pursue all of them until it finally happens.  Now is definitely not the time for us to be risk adverse...this organization is more than ready to add a franchise-altering free agent.

[Lillian]

49 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If I am not writing the checks and the choice is asshole Machado or great guy Yolmer playing 3B, it’s a pretty easy call. I want to see wins, and I don’t hang out with these guys. If he were a wife beater or something along those lines, it would be a different story. But he is certainly not as disruptive as an Albert Belle.

The hustle thing would be a concern. The other stuff is no big deal when he is on your team. AJP loathed, becomes beloved White Sox. Bob Probert, big time asshole, becomes beloved Blackhawk. Sammy Sosa, beloved Cub. Dennis Rodman, beloved Bull. Machado’s rep isn’t half as bad as most of these guys. 

I'm sorry, but I don't put A. J. in the same category as Machado, character wise. I think that they are completely different kinds of people. As fans, we all have our own preferences. Of course, Yolmer is not in the same class, talent wise, as Machado, so I too would rather have the Star player. However, the choice does not have to be either Yolmer or Machado. I'd just prefer the face of the franchise being someone, whom I wouldn't really dislike, as a person.

If one doesn't care, that's fine. It's a matter of personal preference. Perhaps I've rooted for this team, too many years, in which they weren't champions, or even played in the Post Season. After all, I go back to the middle 50's. The thought of disliking the players, in all but a hand full of post season appearances, is not very appealing.

[Eminor3rd]

I just think the dude needs a better haircut. He’s putting a lot of effort in and it really is not working out. 

[greg775]

On 10/19/2018 at 3:00 PM, Baker said:

Las Vegas has some odds on who will sign Machado/ Harper. The top 10 were listed and the Sox weren’t on either list. Texas/Giants were 10th at 5% chance for either. Probably less than 1% chance either one comes here. I hope some team grabs them soon so we can move on. 

If this is true ... wow. Have any baseball writers said the Sox are real players for either guy? I don't see it when other teams (cough, cough Yankees) are out there.  https://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/anthony-rieber/yankees-2019-machado-harper-stanton-1.21775676

[Lip Man 1]

Fan:

To answer your question, this is just my opinion I haven't spoken to anybody with inside knowledge.

I think Hahn will make an effort but I think both guys have no real interest in the Sox. Money is not going to be an object, they'll both get offers greater than any in history so to me what comes into play are things like ability to win (now-not potentially in the future), outside market opportunities, fan interest etc.

The Sox right now fall way short in those areas although again the potential is there. But given that Harper and Machado are still looking to win a World Series (granted Manny may) I don't think the Sox will fall into their orbit.

Regarding JR and Belle, remember there were extenuating circumstances, namely JR was really pissed (and was quoted in Sports Illustrated as saying so, I've got the story in my files) that the MLB owners settled the 94-95 labor impasse on terms he felt were wrong.

He wasn't out for "revenge" per se but as he said in the story if MLB wasn't going to look out for their best interest collectively, he was going to look out for the interest of the White Sox. He asked Frank Thomas if he'd rather have Belle or Bonds as a teammate. Frank said Belle and JR proceeded from there.

 

[Balta1701]

On 10/19/2018 at 3:00 PM, Baker said:

Las Vegas has some odds on who will sign Machado/ Harper. The top 10 were listed and the Sox weren’t on either list. Texas/Giants were 10th at 5% chance for either. Probably less than 1% chance either one comes here. I hope some team grabs them soon so we can move on. 

This sounds like a decent bet, I'd actually take those odds. 20-1 or 50-1 payout on either of them coming to the White Sox, who have a whopping $50 million committed to their payroll this year and that's assuming they offer arbitration to Abreu? They may not wind up here but I'd put $20 on each of those in Vegas for those odds.

[greg775]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This sounds like a decent bet, I'd actually take those odds. 20-1 or 50-1 payout on either of them coming to the White Sox, who have a whopping $50 million committed to their payroll this year and that's assuming they offer arbitration to Abreu? They may not wind up here but I'd put $20 on each of those in Vegas for those odds.

I'd take the bet too because of how you described it, but only 20 to 50 buck bet. Not trying to inflame, but I think Machado goes to Dodgers or Yankees and I hate to say doesn't Harper make a lot of sense for either Washington or the ... Cubs? Yes the Cubs.

[Balta1701]

Just now, greg775 said:

I'd take the bet too because of how you described it, but only 20 to 50 buck bet. Not trying to inflame, but I think Machado goes to Dodgers or Yankees and I hate to say doesn't Harper make a lot of sense for either Washington or the ... Cubs? Yes the Cubs.

Of course they're the most likely destinations they have the most money and the Dodger and Yankees are out of the luxury tax. But that doesn't mean the White Sox have a 2% chance or less. I don't know what the odds are, and we have limits (cannot do an opt out until after year 4), but we're at least going to be at the table with an offer.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Of course they're the most likely destinations they have the most money and the Dodger and Yankees are out of the luxury tax. But that doesn't mean the White Sox have a 2% chance or less. I don't know what the odds are, and we have limits (cannot do an opt out until after year 4), but we're at least going to be at the table with an offer.

Fully agree.  We’ll definitely be in the mix, but with the way the 2018 season shaked out, our offer will need to a be cut above the rest.  And there will need to be a clear commitment by our ownership group & front office to add more impact talent over the next few offseasons.  Given that we’re not a “win now” team like other organizations in the mix, we desperately need to sell these guys on the potential of coming to the Sox such as having an elite farm system, significant payroll flexibility, & the easiest path to the playoffs in the MLB (thanks AL Central).  I truly believe that those can be compelling selling points, but again the money has to be there.  And I know I’ll get a ton of shit for this, but no team is better prepared and should be more motivated to offer these guys a record breaking contract than the White Sox.  I truly believe our leadership realizes that adding a legit superstar would instantly pay dividends and is prepared to do everything it can to land one of these guys this offseason.

[Eminor3rd]

The Phillies are GOING to get at least one of these guys. If you think the Yankees have the appetite for another, it’s going to be an uphill battle. 

I agree that we will definitely be in the mix but ultimately unwilling to outbid the more desireable destinations by enough to get the win. We will see though. It’s a real possibility

[Jose Abreu]

10 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

The Phillies are GOING to get at least one of these guys. If you think the Yankees have the appetite for another, it’s going to be an uphill battle. 

I keep seeing this but what makes everyone say it? We have more money than the Phillies and it's not like this is Trout where it's his childhood team. 

[Eminor3rd]

6 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

I keep seeing this but what makes everyone say it? We have more money than the Phillies and it's not like this is Trout where it's his childhood team. 

Sent you a PM

[Chicago White Sox]

7 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Sent you a PM

Can you send me a PM too?

[Bob Sacamano]

28 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

I keep seeing this but what makes everyone say it? We have more money than the Phillies and it's not like this is Trout where it's his childhood team. 

That's easy. Because the Phillies are a team that has spent in the past. Looking back at their competitive window up until around the time they started rebuilding, they were a top 5 salary team and even had the second highest payroll 2 or 3 times.

Edited October 22, 2018 by soxfan2014

[Dick Allen]

Machado wants to play on the East coast. Probably should have traded some decent prospects for him last winter so he could have experienced how awesome it is to lose 100 games when no one is paying attention.

[Bob Sacamano]

23 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Machado wants to play on the East coast. Probably should have traded some decent prospects for him last winter so he could have experienced how awesome it is to lose 100 games when no one is paying attention.

It's ok. His only friend in baseball Welington Castillo will convince him to sign here.

[SonofaRoache]

On 10/18/2018 at 5:04 PM, bubba phillips said:

Conservatively, it looks there will be about 18 teams competing for a championship in 2021. Seven or 8 teams are in the middle of a rebuild, 3 or 4 have had a successful recent rebuild and will be set for the next few years at least, and then there's about 6 teams that are perpetually competing for a championship because their franchises were never run into the ground and therefore never needed to rebuild. 

The realistic view, in my opinion, is that we should be competing for a division championship.  And even that is not guaranteed, if the injuries keep piling up.  Also, this rebuild is not happening in a vacuum---we can't assume that we will greatly improve and the other teams in the division will decline, stagnate, or improve at a much slower rate than the White Sox. 

This is unacceptable. 5 years is enough to become a division favorite and compete in the playoffs, like the Cubs have done. This doesn't mean we will win championships, but we need to be a name brought up as a top 5 team in the AL. If this is not the end result, then our guys failed.